America - The Official Thread

[Johnnypenso]

I've been reading up a lot on politics recently,especially around the election. I'm feel that I don't really with any political party, whether that be UK or US. I'm very much socially conservative but I'm fiscally liberal and take a progressive stance on the environment and domestic policy and a conservative one on immigration. America seems to be a real melting pot in terms of political ideology in the way that doesn't happen in the very centrist-heavy UK. Is there a word to describe someone who is socially conservative but fiscally liberal? (i.e. the complete opposite of libertarianism)

I did not know that such a creature existed. Pleased to meet you

 

[Dotini]

Is there a word to describe someone who is socially conservative but fiscally liberal? (i.e. the complete opposite of libertarianism)

It depends on exactly how you define the terms liberal and conservative. It could end up meaning at least any of the below:
- Pre-Trump Republican
- FDR Democrat, Huey Long Democrat
- fascist
- statist
- Keynesian
- paleoliberal

 

[Danoff]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-maxed-out-first-decline-since-1993/95134818/
http://www.vox.com/2016/12/8/13875150/life-expectancy-us-dropped-first-time-decade
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38247385


US life expectancy has gone down!!!!!!1!

By 0.2 years for males and 0.1 years for females... and the uncertainty of that estimate is? Not reported. So we don't know whether this is significant. Awesome.

 

[BobK]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-maxed-out-first-decline-since-1993/95134818/
http://www.vox.com/2016/12/8/13875150/life-expectancy-us-dropped-first-time-decade
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38247385



US life expectancy has gone down!!!!!!1!

By 0.2 years for males and 0.1 years for females... and the uncertainty of that estimate is? Not reported. So we don't know whether this is significant. Awesome.

Must be Trump's fault.

 

[TRGTspecialist]

I've been reading up a lot on politics recently,especially around the election. I'm feel that I don't really with any political party, whether that be UK or US. I'm very much socially conservative but I'm fiscally liberal and take a progressive stance on the environment and domestic policy and a conservative one on immigration. America seems to be a real melting pot in terms of political ideology in the way that doesn't happen in the very centrist-heavy UK. Is there a word to describe someone who is socially conservative but fiscally liberal? (i.e. the complete opposite of libertarianism)

I did not know that such a creature existed.

A combination of social conservatism and fiscal liberalism, to some degree, is probably the most common political position out there - in the US at least, and for the largest UK parties. Not a rare breed at all - it's where most of the voters are!

 

[Joey D]

Must be Trump's fault.

More like Thanks Obama!

 

[Joey D]

So it looks like the government decided to go ahead and steal some land from Utah today along with Nevada...the two states that have the highest percentage of Federal land already.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...ahs-national-park-landscape-declared-national

I give it until about August before something is majorly vandalized there.

 

[Danoff]

New York prepares for new years with dumptrucks filled with sand to absorb a bomb blast.

 

[TenEightyOne]

So it looks like the government decided to go ahead and steal some land from Utah today along with Nevada...the two states that have the highest percentage of Federal land already.

http://www.nationalparkstraveler.co...ahs-national-park-landscape-declared-national

I give it until about August before something is majorly vandalized there.

I find it difficult to comprehend why an American would oppose the protection of sacred lands whose use goes back thousands of years.

 

[Dennisch]

I find it difficult to comprehend why an American would oppose the protection of sacred lands whose use goes back thousands of years.

MY MEMMI AND POPPY STOLE THIS LAND FAIR AND SQUARE FROM THE SAVAGES!

 

[xyloscissor]

MY MEMMI AND POPPY STOLE THIS LAND FAIR AND SQUARE FROM THE SAVAGES!

Article IV is what is questioned, indeed some fancy Europeans blew on their sails and conquered... so long ago. I'm not going to feel bad about that in any way as I did not do it. The question is, is our federal government representing us or themselves and what does our current law say about it.

http://www.heritage.org/constitution/#!/articles/4/essays/126/property-clause

For what it is worth I feel the latest Obama grab in Nevada is a slap in the face.

Oh, I forgot your sarcastic side

 

[Dotini]

I have personally spent several weeks walking through these magical lands in the 4 corners region. They are well worth preserving for future generations of study and enjoyment, IMHO. At one time, there were at least 10,000 pyramids and barrows east of the Mississippi. Now they are mostly destroyed, though Cahokia remains.

 

[xyloscissor]

I have personally spent several weeks walking through these magical lands in the 4 corners region. They are well worth preserving for future generations of study and enjoyment, IMHO. At one time, there were at least 10,000 pyramids and barrows east of the Mississippi. Now they are mostly destroyed, though Cahokia remains.

I live in the four corners, so what of course as we all live in the united states. I don't think we are talking about destruction I think we are talking about not letting a few folks graze cattle, no?

 

[Dotini]

I live in the four corners, so what of course as we all live in the united states. I don't think we are talking about destruction I think we are talking about not letting a few folks graze cattle, no?

Commercial farming and ranching, commercial operations of (almost) all kinds are not permitted in National Monuments, so I imagine it goes slightly beyond just cows as to how many business interests may be affected. The numbers won't be large.

It was mentioned the vastness of Federal lands in the region. In the medium or distant future those lands may be reallocated as becomes required. I predict a whole new nation will be created there, probably for some oppressed population fleeing for their lives from their former location. Perhaps Kurds or Jews or Rohingya or - gasp - aliens.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-maxed-out-first-decline-since-1993/95134818/
http://www.vox.com/2016/12/8/13875150/life-expectancy-us-dropped-first-time-decade
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38247385


US life expectancy has gone down!!!!!!1!

By 0.2 years for males and 0.1 years for females... and the uncertainty of that estimate is? Not reported. So we don't know whether this is significant. Awesome.

Sedentary, meaningless lifestyles (together with drugs and suicide as fashion statements) common among the generations following the boomers, is undoubtedly at the root of it.

 

[Joey D]

I find it difficult to comprehend why an American would oppose the protection of sacred lands whose use goes back thousands of years.

It was already protected buy the Antiquities Act and by the state of Utah. The Act also states that the minimum amount of land needed for protection should be set aside. The government clearly didn't understand that provision though:

It's also fairly well documented that when you make any form of archaeological significant sites easily accessible by the public, things get vandalized and destroyed. Not many people outside the region knew about Bears Ears unless you were into Native American studies or archaeology, now everyone knows about it and people are going to want to trample all of lands that are still considered sacred by the Utes and Navajo.

The areas that were not protected by the Bureau of Land Management were actually owned by Utah...something that there isn't a ton of in this state since the Federal Government owns most of it. By taking it that means Utah loses the ability to harvest any natural resources from the area, including water, which becomes fairly important when you are the second driest state in the nation.

ORV's are also no permitted in National Monuments either, which means tourism for San Juan County will suffer because of this since that's why most people head to that region.

If they were going to make it a National Monument, then they should have only designated the area where the ruins are as one. Taking more land than was needed goes against everything the Antiquities Act stands for. Even then, it should have been left up to the state to decide how they wanted to deal with it.

I live in the four corners, so what of course as we all live in the united states. I don't think we are talking about destruction I think we are talking about not letting a few folks graze cattle, no?

Taking away any kind of land for ranching in Southern Utah is bad since that's really their only source of a economy. San Juan County is the poorest in Utah and only has a seasonal boost in tourism at best

 

[TenEightyOne]

It was already protected buy the Antiquities Act and by the state of Utah. The Act also states that the minimum amount of land needed for protection should be set aside. The government clearly didn't understand that provision though:

Your second diagram implies that only the "high quality" ruin should be covered, and then not all of it.

It's also fairly well documented that when you make any form of archaeological significant sites easily accessible by the public, things get vandalized and destroyed. Not many people outside the region knew about Bears Ears unless you were into Native American studies or archaeology, now everyone knows about it and people are going to want to trample all of lands that are still considered sacred by the Utes and Navajo.

You'll have no problem providing a source from this ample documentation, I'm sure. It's a fact of life that things get vandalized and destroyed regardless of status. The "now everybody knows about it" argument has two sides of course, surely many people want to know about such sites?

By taking it that means Utah loses the ability to harvest any natural resources from the area, including water, which becomes fairly important when you are the second driest state in the nation.

ORV's are also no permitted in National Monuments either, which means tourism for San Juan County will suffer because of this since that's why most people head to that region.

So far you're making more of an argument for protection that against. Sourcing water from Monument areas isn't unprecedented anyway... but allowing cattle (a very destructive force) or off-roading (equally destructive, cos physics) seems mad. If that's the kind of thing that would happen under the State's governance then surely there's a good argument for Federal protection to stop it?

Tourism doesn't have to die in Monument areas - in fact it the "everybody knows about it" effect can be a positive one. The industry needs to adapt - as I'm sure it will, as it always does.

There's a lot of tourism in Utah outside that area of course, that remains untouched, as do the other cornerstones of Utah's economy (oil, gas, information et al).

 

[xyloscissor]

But but equality or some sort etc. but but, poor ends justify the means. I simply do not like it one bit, in some regards we have punished those willing to work hard for what they have.

Just my take of course, some's may vary.

@Joey D, I think you didn't understand me

 

[Joey D]

Your second diagram implies that only the "high quality" ruin should be covered, and then not all of it.

A vast majority of the ruins are still all concentrated within that area, or at least the ones that are known. But regardless, even those not in the area were still protected under the Antiquities Act and it was still a Federal crime to vandalism or steal from them. I'm not sure what adding more "protection" is really going to accomplish.

You'll have no problem providing a source from this ample documentation, I'm sure. It's a fact of life that things get vandalized and destroyed regardless of status. The "now everybody knows about it" argument has two sides of course, surely many people want to know about such sites?

Anyone who wanted to know about it could know about it, the Utah Board of Tourism talked about it.

And I'm slightly surprised you're asking for documentation, it seems like common sense that the more publicly accessible a place is, the more people will go there, and thus have an increase chance of vandalism. It's also been well documented in the news as well. But here you go:

Between 2011 and 2016, there were 25 reported incidents of vandalism and looting at Bears Ears (source), while the Grand Staircase Escalante had 1,400 reported incidents in just 2015 (source). These two places are about 200 miles apart so relatively close.

While this is an opinion piece, it does demonstrate vandalism in National Parks:
http://beforeitsnews.com/opinion-co...creases-vandalism-to-antiquities-3175745.html

Another set of articles showing "artist" defacing various parts of National Parks:
http://www.modernhiker.com/2014/10/21/instagram-artist-defaces-national-parks/
https://www.nps.gov/orgs/1563/nocket-sentenced-for-vandalism.htm

Another example:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/3741977-155/vandalism-increasing-in-utah-national-parks

Another:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/1739757-155/parks-national-graffiti-artist-art-rock

One from outside Utah:
http://www.cntraveler.com/story/vandals-destroy-duckbill-rock-formation-at-oregon-national-park

Even celebrities do it:
http://blogs.findlaw.com/celebrity_...es-5000-fine-for-national-park-vandalism.html

So far you're making more of an argument for protection that against. Sourcing water from Monument areas isn't unprecedented anyway... but allowing cattle (a very destructive force) or off-roading (equally destructive, cos physics) seems mad. If that's the kind of thing that would happen under the State's governance then surely there's a good argument for Federal protection to stop it?

As I've pointed out, it was already protected to the extent that the Federal Government could protect it. Making it a National Monument isn't going to protect it any more than it already was and it's only going to expose it to more people, which will increase the likelihood something is damaged. As for the ranching, it was done outside the area where the ruins are, same goes for off roading. I can't speak for ranchers, but I can safely say a majority of off roaders practice a "tread lightly" policy since they know if they destroy the land they will loose access to it. Yes, there are some ignorant rednecks in jacked up Ford F-350's that will tear through things without consideration of the land around it, but for the most part off roaders stick to designated routes and areas.

And the state was doing a fine job protecting it since there were only a handful of incidents that occurred in the area.

Tourism doesn't have to die in Monument areas - in fact it the "everybody knows about it" effect can be a positive one. The industry needs to adapt - as I'm sure it will, as it always does.

It's very seasonal. Tourism in those areas will only occur during the summer, whereas ranching, mining, forestry, etc can happen all year around.

There's a lot of tourism in Utah outside that area of course, that remains untouched, as do the other cornerstones of Utah's economy (oil, gas, information et al).

Yes, there is a ton of tourism outside that area, but that doesn't help the people living there does it? It is the poorest area in the state, doing something to damage and already iffy economy seems like a bad move. If Utah allowed gambling there could at least be casinos in that area to offset the economy, but we don't allow gambling and probably never will so that's not an option.

You also need to consider that the Federal Government already owns something like 70% of Utah with only Nevada having a larger percentage of Federal land. Because of this the state doesn't benefit nearly as much as it should from the extraction of natural resources (nor has a say in it) since the Federal Government owns the land. To me, it seems like a violation of the Tenth Amendment and state's rights.

I think it's also important to consider that the Native population of the area didn't want this and that they consider the lands to be sacred.

 

[DK]

The House of Representatives has voted to reduce the powers of the Office of Congressional Ethics. As a result, it can no longer receive anonymous tip-offs, it won't have a spokesperson, it will be under the oversight of the House Ethics Committee, and that committee will have to approve any referral to law enforcement agencies. The OCE was introduced following the jailing of the lobbyist Jack Abramoff in 2006 for conspiracy to bribe public officals, mail fraud and tax evasion.

 

[Dennisch]

Transparency! Drain the swamp!

 

[Dennisch]

The House of Representatives has voted to reduce the powers of the Office of Congressional Ethics. As a result, it can no longer receive anonymous tip-offs, it won't have a spokesperson, it will be under the oversight of the House Ethics Committee, and that committee will have to approve any referral to law enforcement agencies. The OCE was introduced following the jailing of the lobbyist Jack Abramoff in 2006 for conspiracy to bribe public officals, mail fraud and tax evasion.

They cancelled their plan. Trump and other prominent Republicans heavily opposed to it.

And perhaps even more important news, Ford cancelled the plan for a 1.6 billion dollar plant in Mexico, and will now invest 700 million into an existing plant in Flat Rock, Michigan.

 

[IforceV8]

And perhaps even more important news, Ford cancelled the plan for a 1.6 billion dollar plant in Mexico, and will now invest 700 million into an existing plant in Flat Rock, Michigan.

Having a press conference to announce that Ford has mastered basic math and will now save itself $900 million 💡, and hoping everybody forgets about the $2.6 Billion that is still committed to making Mexico great again.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-confirms-25b-production-expansion-in-mexico-88235.html That was announced with this plan http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-confirms-plans-for-new-small-car-factory-in-mexico-91429.html

Mexico 3,800 jobs created
'Murica up to 700 jobs created

Have you fixed a Ford lately...

 

[Johnnypenso]

They cancelled their plan. Trump and other prominent Republicans heavily opposed to it.

And perhaps even more important news, Ford cancelled the plan for a 1.6 billion dollar plant in Mexico, and will now invest 700 million into an existing plant in Flat Rock, Michigan.

A small step in a long journey but positive nonetheless.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Having a press conference to announce that Ford has mastered basic math and will now save itself $900 million 💡,

Looks simple if that's the only sum... so can you remember why they were building in Mexico in the first place?

 

[Joey D]

I'm not sure how many of you have seen this, but apparently this is what constitutes as "misguided youths" now days.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/index.html

Four teens abducted a man with a mental illness, proceeded to torture him while yelling racially charged hate towards whites and expressing their dislike of Donald Trump. Of course the media is not branding this a hate crime, when it clearly is, because...actually I'm not sure why. There are also several posts coming from social media that are saying these youths were just misguided and that they couldn't cope with having a "racist" president. Honestly, I don't care how much they don't like Trump, it's their right as an American citizen to express that, they can even express their dislike of whites if they want, but it's unacceptable that this is the way they choose to do it.

Thankfully these teens were charged with a hate crime over this because there is no doubt it was racial motivated. However, there's already a ton of social media outcry that this wasn't a hate crime and this is what happens when you elect a "racist" president. I've already had to unfriend a few people on my Facebook page because I just can't fathom supporting anyone, no matter what color their skin is, who commits such awful acts on another person.

I'm also wondering where the Black Lives Matter movement is with all of this since their goal is to get rid of the racial divide in America. I know if the roles were reversed and four white teens had tortured a mentally ill black man while yelling racial slurs and saying F Obama, there would be mass protest and a subgroup of people rioting in the streets and destroying property. You'd think the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement would use this unfortunate incident to show that both sides need to do a better job repairing race relations and try to bridge the gap that exists, especially in a city like Chicago that's already fairly segregated.

If this is how some people are planning to act over a Trump presidency, it makes feel better that my state recognizes the second amendment and allows me to carry the means to protect myself. All it takes is one crazy to cause a ton of havoc.

 

[ryzno]

I'm not sure how many of you have seen this, but apparently this is what constitutes as "misguided youths" now days.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/05/us/chicago-facebook-live-beating/index.html

Four teens abducted a man with a mental illness, proceeded to torture him while yelling racially charged hate towards whites and expressing their dislike of Donald Trump. Of course the media is not branding this a hate crime, when it clearly is, because...actually I'm not sure why. There are also several posts coming from social media that are saying these youths were just misguided and that they couldn't cope with having a "racist" president. Honestly, I don't care how much they don't like Trump, it's their right as an American citizen to express that, they can even express their dislike of whites if they want, but it's unacceptable that this is the way they choose to do it.

Thankfully these teens were charged with a hate crime over this because there is no doubt it was racial motivated. However, there's already a ton of social media outcry that this wasn't a hate crime and this is what happens when you elect a "racist" president. I've already had to unfriend a few people on my Facebook page because I just can't fathom supporting anyone, no matter what color their skin is, who commits such awful acts on another person.

I'm also wondering where the Black Lives Matter movement is with all of this since their goal is to get rid of the racial divide in America. I know if the roles were reversed and four white teens had tortured a mentally ill black man while yelling racial slurs and saying F Obama, there would be mass protest and a subgroup of people rioting in the streets and destroying property. You'd think the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement would use this unfortunate incident to show that both sides need to do a better job repairing race relations and try to bridge the gap that exists, especially in a city like Chicago that's already fairly segregated.

If this is how some people are planning to act over a Trump presidency, it makes feel better that my state recognizes the second amendment and allows me to carry the means to protect myself. All it takes is one crazy to cause a ton of havoc.

I wanted to start a thread over this situation. Something along the lines of, "Race Wars in America". I have brought the subject up before here and the election thread... Only to be ignored or dismissed. If I don't start it hopefully someone more vocal can.

 

[Dennisch]

Pretty much every somewhat high profile 'cop kills black man' case was here in the news.

And this?
Nope.

Has there been a response yet out of Washington? Or any of the BLM front runners? Apart from the troubled youth sob stories of course.

 

[Joey D]

I wanted to start a thread over this situation. Something along the lines of, "Race Wars in America". I have brought the subject up before here and the election thread... Only to be ignored or dismissed. If I don't start it hopefully someone more vocal can.

I think the biggest issue is that these racial issues aren't everywhere so it's hard for many people to see them. Here in Utah race really isn't a problem but something like 90% of the state is white with the other 10% being made up of mostly non-white Hispanics and Asians. Mormons are also pretty accepting of race in general so that's probably another reason. I'm guessing if I asked any handful of people off the street if there was a race problem in this country they'd say no.

Pretty much every somewhat high profile 'cop kills black man' case was here in the news.

And this?
Nope.

Has there been a response yet out of Washington? Or any of the BLM front runners? Apart from the troubled youth sob stories of course.

Obama is to busy trying to start a war with the Russians to care I think. I will be curious to see how Trump handles things like this though, he needs to be outspoken on both sides if he choose to speak out at all.

 

[ryzno]

I think the biggest issue is that these racial issues aren't everywhere so it's hard for many people to see them. Here in Utah race really isn't a problem but something like 90% of the state is white with the other 10% being made up of mostly non-white Hispanics and Asians. Mormons are also pretty accepting of race in general so that's probably another reason. I'm guessing if I asked any handful of people off the street if there was a race problem in this country they'd say no.

See, that brings a problem in my opinion. You have the media/prez showing every instance of any suspected white on black police shooting on the news. As @Dennisch pointed out again.

On top of that you had a presidential candidate brainwashing America to think anyone who votes Trump is a racist on top of a list of other _ist's... So while America is being fed these stories, they don't see whats also happening in the bigger cities.

It is a problem. But as you eluded to, if you don't see it it's not a problem.(side note I don't think that is your opinion on this situation.)

 

[McLaren]

I'm also wondering where the Black Lives Matter movement is with all of this since their goal is to get rid of the racial divide in America. I know if the roles were reversed and four white teens had tortured a mentally ill black man while yelling racial slurs and saying F Obama, there would be mass protest and a subgroup of people rioting in the streets and destroying property. You'd think the leaders of the Black Lives Matter movement would use this unfortunate incident to show that both sides need to do a better job repairing race relations and try to bridge the gap that exists, especially in a city like Chicago that's already fairly segregated.

Black Lives Matter is about as silent on it as the media is. Meanwhile, half the racist idiots in Twittersphere that support BLM justify it because "whitey used to do it" & the ever popular "racism against whites isn't a thing". Then there's Don Lemon's dumb ass who is upset, but understanding because they're "teenagers". Disgusting to keep seeing them being referred to as such b/c it attempts to imply some sort of "innocent, misunderstood kids" view point. Then you have the Chicago PD's initial reaction about whether or not it's a hate crime and this gem from a detective at the bottom about "stupid mistakes".

And of course, the White House won't comment on it because it's an on-going investigation, which is ironic because on-going investigations never stopped Obama from throwing in his 2 cents on Trayvon & Ferguson.

As much as I would love to see Trump do something dumb like claim, "That boy is like a son I would have", he's probably better off staying out of this. His presence will just make real racists rant about white privilege/supremacy.