America - The Official Thread

[Imari]

It is not just "Father Michael", but those at the partys he said he attended.

So? It could be a tribe. What does it matter?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

So? It could be a tribe. What does it matter?

Really?

A party hosted by adults, that invites underage children, plying then with drugs and alcohol, and then...

I think that is a problem.

 

[Scaff]

It's not character assassination it's free speech sounds an awful lot like an either/or scenario. It's not this, it's that. Maybe we should ask the professor.

You asked, I clarified what I said and yet you still want to tell me what I was actually saying!

Odd that, you would think my clarification of my position and view would be something I didn't need anyone else to correct me on.

They are, but I asked you a specific question about your thoughts, hence my reaction.

Cheap sarcasm it is then.

The post stands on it's own merit. I don't need to pile on to make it more valid.

So only I need correction on the exact nature and use of the term. Got it.

 

[Imari]

Really?

A party hosted by adults, that invites underage children, plying then with drugs and alcohol, and then...

I think that is a problem.

It certainly is, but that's not what we were discussing. We were discussing why a victim of such parties should be mandated to report participants. You're yet to answer.

While you're at it, you can answer why being abused by a greater number of people would make it more important that the victim report participants.

I can understand that some victims can avoid reporting because of fear, or social pressure or whatever. I seriously doubt that is the case with Milo, given his stance on pedophilia (of which he is not a victim) and his generally ridiculously outspoken nature. If he wanted to report, I'm reasonably sure that he would.

So why should your wish for him to report take precedence over his wish not to? Feels a lot like backseat driving to me.

Hell, if you're so bent out of shape about it take it upon yourself to out some of his abusers. He went to school at Simon Langton Grammar. Get on Google and go to it. It's not Milo's job to satisfy your lust for justice. He clearly doesn't feel the same way.

 

[mister dog]

Seems it was all pre planned looking at this:

 

[DK]

Let me say first, I am a fan of Milo. I think what he has said was blown way out of proportion. He was not condoning anything.

But, this guy makes a very compelling argument. It takes him nearly 30 minutes to get to the point, but what he says is that Milo should name names of abusers, and I agree.

For those of us without >30 minutes to spend on a "Gish Gallop", did Molyneux blame (language warning) Milo's parents, single mothers, the Confederacy's defeat in the US Civil War, abortion, or women's autonomy in general?

 

[Danoff]

Are we still talking about this?

His argument was that as long as a child has reached puberty and was consensual then its not pedophilia. Now while his point around the age of consent being arbitrary is valid (all 'age' limits are), which is pretty much the same argument that NAMBLA have tried to use.

No, that's not his argument. His argument is that it's a fuzzy boundary when people become mature enough to give consent and that we draw a line in the sand through this fuzzy boundary because we have to - but he doesn't want us to treat it like it's black and white... the way you're trying to.

 

[Scaff]

Are we still talking about this?



No, that's not his argument. His argument is that it's a fuzzy boundary when people become mature enough to give consent and that we draw a line in the sand through this fuzzy boundary because we have to - but he doesn't want us to treat it like it's black and white... the way you're trying to.

You mean exactly as I said repeatedly with regard to age of consent being arbitrary.

 

[Danoff]

You mean exactly as I said repeatedly with regard to age of consent being arbitrary.

Oh I see, you're drawing a distinction (which he was too) that I didn't catch when you did it - the distinction being pedophilia vs. underage. Ok, I was probably harder on you above than I should have been. I still think you're missing the point though, which is that the notion that the age limit is arbitrary means that what he said about some people under that age being capable of giving consent is something of a tautology. Yes, necessarily some of them will be able to give consent (not legally, but theoretically) if we draw the line somewhere in the middle. Where's the controversy?

 

[Scaff]

Oh I see, you're drawing a distinction (which he was too) that I didn't catch when you did it - the distinction being pedophilia vs. underage. Ok, I was probably harder on you above than I should have been. I still think you're missing the point though, which is that the notion that the age limit is arbitrary means that what he said about some people under that age being capable of giving consent is something of a tautology. Yes, necessarily some of them will be able to give consent (not legally, but theoretically) if we draw the line somewhere in the middle. Where's the controversy?

Not something I really commented on. My main point was that he has a right to say it in terms of free speech, but given the public perception of the subject fall out from it and the loss of his speech and book deal are consiquences that he as to accept.

 

[Danoff]

Not something I really commented on. My main point was that he has a right to say it in terms of free speech, but given the public perception of the subject fall out from it and the loss of his speech and book deal are consiquences that he as to accept.

I agree with that.

I'm just going to put this out there and see if anyone picks it up... I don't see what the fallout is about. I'm not sure I disagree with any of the things he said that seem to be getting him in trouble.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Milo is still a young man, the guys who victimized him could very well still be victimizing young teens.

For those of us without >30 minutes to spend on a "Gish Gallop", did Molyneux blame (language warning) Milo's parents, single mothers, the Confederacy's defeat in the US Civil War, abortion, or women's autonomy in general?

I don't know who this guy is. Youtube recommended the video because I had been watching other videos about Milo.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I agree with that.

I'm just going to put this out there and see if anyone picks it up... I don't see what the fallout is about. I'm not sure I disagree with any of the things he said that seem to be getting him in trouble.

The fallout is about some things still being taboo subject to discuss, like violating or changing the age of consent, or men having sex with younger boys. This is why I don't have any problem with the general thrust of Milo's point, that the age of consent should be subject to discussion, which is what I gathered was the thrust of his point from the admittedly limited attention I've paid to the subject. Some people could probably give rational consent at 12 or 13 while others shouldn't be giving it at 17 or 20. Drawing the line puts an arbitrary limit on something that isn't arbitrary or well defined. As I mentioned earlier, it was changed a few years ago in Canada prompted by a case of a 14 year old boy having consensual sex with an older man, set up over the internet. When caught the boy said it was all consensual and no charges were laid for the sex act itself. Still, outrage ensued and politics being what it is, all of a sudden 14 year olds weren't smart enough to decide for themselves except for with people around their own age, and overnight you were only smart enough to decide to have sex with anyone you wanted at age 16. Completely arbitrary. Good luck trying to bring up a rational discussion about lowering or eliminating the age with anyone other than your closest and most trusted friends.

 

[Dotini]

My father was very conservative. At the time the voting age was lowered form 21 to 18, he wanted it raised to 31.

 

[Imari]

Milo is still a young man, the guys who victimized him could very well still be victimizing young teens.

They certainly could. That would be a bad thing.

You're still not answering the question though.

So why should your wish for him to report take precedence over his wish not to?

Just because the guys still exist has really nothing to do with whether Milo should be allowed to choose whether he wants to report his own abuse or not.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

So why should your wish for him to report take precedence over his wish not to?

I never said it should.

Just because the guys still exist has really nothing to do with whether Milo should be allowed to choose whether he wants to report his own abuse or not.

Of course he can choose. It's not like I called for him to be waterboarded.

 

[ryzno]

Im amazed/sickened that y'all are talking about if someone should identify/snitch on a pedo or group of pedos abusing kids.
Y'all amaze me with the levels y'all will go to debate something.
If he consented or not, it's disgusting grown people having sex with children not even fully sexually matured... On top of the fact he's protecting possible sex offenders he should be facing charges for not identifying the pervs. But I'm sure he likes little boys too.
The current law is what it is, they should be in jail. 🤬 perverts!

 

[Danoff]

Im amazed/sickened that y'all are talking about if someone should identify/snitch on a pedo or group of pedos abusing kids.
Y'all amaze me with the levels y'all will go to debate something.
If he consented or not, it's disgusting grown people having sex with children not even fully sexually matured... On top of the fact he's protecting possible sex offenders he should be facing charges for not identifying the pervs. But I'm sure he likes little boys too.
The current law is what it is, they should be in jail. 🤬 perverts!

I'm not sure anyone is discussing whether it should be done, more like whether one has an obligation to do so. If your wife punches you, do you have an obligation to turn her in under domestic abuse? If you catch your kid smoking weed do you have to call the cops? If your kids' friends steal from your wallet, do you have to turn them in to the police?

I had a friend in high school who was about 16 years old when she was caught having sex with a teacher. I would hate to have seen her at any point in her life harassed by people (other than her parents) who thought they knew better than her whether she should prosecute or turn him in*.

*It's actually a very famous case, eventually went to the US supreme court.

he should be facing charges for not identifying the pervs

That's just not how the US works. We don't prosecute people for the simple act of refusing to be informants for our criminal justice system. In fact, that kind of requirement doesn't usually work out too well.

 

[TenEightyOne]

That's just not how the US works. We don't prosecute people for the simple act of refusing to be informants for our criminal justice system. In fact, that kind of requirement doesn't usually work out too well.

I thought that all "school personnel" (definition untested, I think) had a requirement to report child abuse suspicions in any state and that some states extend that requirement to all citizens? I may be wrong, it's something I remember from a safeguarding lecture.

 

[ryzno]

I'm not sure anyone is discussing whether it should be done, more like whether one has an obligation to do so.

They should. Last time I checked it is illegal to lie or withhold information from police/detectives/investigators.(In GA anyways...)

If your wife punches you, do you have an obligation to turn her in under domestic abuse?

Here we go... Legally I do.

If you catch your kid smoking weed do you have to call the cops?

Again, legally I do.*

If your kids' friends steal from your wallet, do you have to turn them in to the police?

They better pray I do!...

*It's actually a very famous case, eventually went to the US supreme court.

I'm not familiar with the case. In GA it is legal with family consent. But what makes it illegal, even in GA, is the teacher/student law.

*I see what you want to do...

 

[McLaren]

You can't lie/withhold information from police if they don't know about it in the first place.

 

[Dotini]

Should California secede from the union?

 

[McLaren]

Should California secede from the union?

They can't. I don't believe any state legally can after Texas v. White without revolution or consent.

I know the idea was proposed that Texas "could" because of a clause claiming we can divide ourselves into 5 separate states if we chose to. But, that topic only gained attention after Gov. Perry's threat to secede if Obama's stimulus package went through, as an alternative to secession.

 

[prousonhairy]

I don't know much about this Milo guy, so I can't comment on him. I did read what he said.

I did just read this article, and it's kind of ironic that 20 years ago Bill Maher defended Mary Kay Letourneau, who was having sex with a 12 year old student of hers. Which to me is much worse.

http://usat.ly/2mdjMfa

 

[Imari]

Im amazed/sickened that y'all are talking about if someone should identify/snitch on a pedo or group of pedos abusing kids.
Y'all amaze me with the levels y'all will go to debate something.

No, you're amazed at the opinions some of us hold. Don't worry. We're amazed at you too.

If he consented or not, it's disgusting grown people having sex with children not even fully sexually matured... On top of the fact he's protecting possible sex offenders he should be facing charges for not identifying the pervs.

I see. So if someone is raped and chooses not to report it, they should also be charged.

I mean, it's up to you, but it sounds to me like that would make rape a whole lot more damaging to the victim. Not only have they been raped or abused, they then lose all freedom to choose what is best for them in how they proceed after that.

Personally, I'd like rapists and abusers to be reported and punished, but I don't think that there's any onus on the victim to do so if they don't want to.

But I'm sure he likes little boys too.

Ah, thoughtcrime.

You see, here in the real world, usually you're not convicted until you actually perform an act. You can think what you like in your head. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if he likes little boys. As long as he's not abusing them it's no problem and none of your business.

The current law is what it is, they should be in jail. 🤬 perverts!

Nobody has questioned that. However you have stated that a victim should also be considered a criminal alongside the people that abused him.

So why should your wish for him to report take precedence over his wish not to?

I never said it should.

Really?

But, this guy makes a very compelling argument. It takes him nearly 30 minutes to get to the point, but what he says is that Milo should name names of abusers, and I agree.

Guy says Milo should name abusers. You agree.

How exactly is that not you think he should name abusers (ie. report them, because any public naming is tantamount to reporting)? You've said exactly that in slightly different words.

If you meant something else, by all means explain it to me. But what you said is he should name names.

I thought that all "school personnel" (definition untested, I think) had a requirement to report child abuse suspicions in any state and that some states extend that requirement to all citizens? I may be wrong, it's something I remember from a safeguarding lecture.

Depends on where you are, but teachers, doctors, psychologists/psychiatrists and the like are usual candidates. However, those are professions that are legally obligated to pass on certain information to appropriate authorities. That exists for any number of industries and professions in various capacities.

Realistically, it almost never comes into play simply because of the difficulty in proving that someone knew something that would have resulted in later harm being prevented and that they knowingly didn't report.

They should. Last time I checked it is illegal to lie or withhold information from police/detectives/investigators.(In GA anyways...)

It is if they ask you for it. You're not obligated to find them and make sure that they know everything that you think that they should.

Here we go... Legally I do.

Again, legally I do.*

No, you really don't.

They better pray I do!...

Ah, the old "joke about assaulting children while I'm lecturing people on legal and moral behaviour".

Goes down a treat every time.

Don't bother trying to make excuses that you meant that they better pray that you turn them into the cops instead of feeding them ice cream sundaes. We know what you meant.

I don't know much about this Milo guy, so I can't comment on him. I did read what he said.

I did just read this article, and it's kind of ironic that 20 years ago Bill Maher defended Mary Kay Letourneau, who was having sex with a 12 year old student of hers. Which to me is much worse.

http://usat.ly/2mdjMfa

Yep. The whole two faced nature of older man/younger girl and older woman/younger boy relationships annoying the everliving snot out of me. They're the same thing; statutory rape.

Most of the time it isn't even really about rape, it's about abuse of authority. Which is totally valid and important. But if you have a vagina you'll probably get off with a slap on the wrist. If you have a penis, you'll be locked up for as long as possible and branded an irredeemable pervert. Go figure.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Guy says Milo should name abusers. You agree.

How exactly is that not you think he should name abusers (ie. report them, because any public naming is tantamount to reporting)? You've said exactly that in slightly different words.

If you meant something else, by all means explain it to me. But what you said is he should name names.

Oh good grief. I agree that he should, not that he should be compelled to do so. Isn't there a mile post somewhere you could go argue with?

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Steve Bannon at CPAC, deconstruction of the administrative state, and "If you think they're going to give you your country back without a fight you are sadly mistaken"

 

[Imari]

Oh good grief. I agree that he should, not that he should be compelled to do so.

Oh, I assumed that you had an actual purpose for saying that rather that simply agreeing with something mundane.

I mean, if someone says that criminals should be punished and you say that you agree, that's hardly saying anything. It's saying that you have the basic grasp of the criminal system that most children develop by about five.

I therefore assumed that you had a more nuanced opinion than "crime=bad", and were making a more generalised and interesting statement than "we should find criminals and punish them". I've seen you have well thought out and insightful comments in this thread before, and while I disagreed with this one I assumed that it at least had some depth and reasoning behind it that I wanted to explore.

Clearly I was wrong, and I take it all back. I was wrong. There is and was no conversation to be had, because your initial statement was intended to be so trivial as to be impossible to discuss. My bad for not spotting it, I guess.

 

[Scaff]

Man thinks two men are from the Middle East (actually from India), tells them to 'get out of the country' and then shoots them.

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134459444.html

 

[Danoff]

They should. Last time I checked it is illegal to lie or withhold information from police/detectives/investigators.(In GA anyways...)

It's illegal to obstruct an investigation, which is not the same thing.

Here we go... Legally I do.

Legally, you do not. In fact, you can't even be compelled to testify against your spouse by court order.

Again, legally I do.*

Legally, you do not. Citation required.

They better pray I do!...

Or what... you'll do something illegal in return? How hypocritical.

I'm not familiar with the case. In GA it is legal with family consent. But what makes it illegal, even in GA, is the teacher/student law.

I didn't say that it was legal for a teacher to have sex with a 16 year old. That's illegal several ways. What I said was that I didn't want to see anyone other than her parents telling her what they think they know is best for her in terms of turning him in.