America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

Apparently there are people out there, and most of them get a stiffy from a certain religous book, who don't really like the idea of Jerusalem being the capital city of a Jewish state.

There are people that get a stiffy from certain religious books about the idea of the US being destroyed. Does that mean people should ignore our claims that Washington D.C. is our capital?

Who do you mean by "we"?

The US government.

 

[Dennisch]

There are people that get a stiffy from certain religious books about the idea of the US being destroyed. Does that mean people should ignore our claims that Washington D.C. is our capital?

Is D.C. also a hotspot for 3 of the largest religions? Does it have important religious sites?

 

[Danoff]

Is D.C. also a hotspot for 3 of the largest religions? Does it have important religious sites?

Does it matter? I don't see how any of that is relevant to whether or not we recognize a country's chosen capital. I also don't see how it's our fault that they chose that one.

What should we do? Tell them to pick another capital? It's their country. Tell them we think another city is their capital? Tell them we don't recognize them as a country? Tell them we do recognize them as a country but don't recognize their authority to pick a capital?

As far as I can tell, this is not a US decision.

 

[Dotini]

Does it matter? I don't see how any of that is relevant to whether or not we recognize a country's chosen capital.

Do you care about peace in the Middle East? Does it matter to you that Arabs and Muslims are offended, angered and set off in arms against Jews and Americans? Does any of this matter to the US government, or any of its agencies, branches, services and individual elected representatives? Or maybe this is strictly an issue of legalese and logic, to be settled without respect to how anybody or any policy or aspiration would be affected?

 

[Dennisch]

Does it matter? I don't see how any of that is relevant to whether or not we recognize a country's chosen capital. I also don't see how it's our fault that they chose that one.

What should we do? Tell them to pick another capital? It's their country. Tell them we think another city is their capital? Tell them we don't recognize them as a country? Tell them we do recognize them as a country but don't recognize their authority to pick a capital?

As far as I can tell, this is not a US decision.

Isn't Trump the US president? Him recognising Jerusalem as a capital is very much a US decision.

 

[Danoff]

Do you care about peace in the Middle East? Does it matter to you that Arabs and Muslims are offended, angered and set off in arms against Jews and Americans? Does any of this matter to the US government, or any of its agencies, branches, services and individual elected representatives? Or maybe this is strictly an issue of legalese and logic, to be settled without respect to how anybody or any policy or aspiration would be affected?

I don't see how telling Israel they can't select a capital (in our eyes of course, we don't have the authority to actually stop them from selecting one) assists in any of those other issues. That would be us contributing to the problems by "getting involved". Do we tell any other country they can't choose a capital?

Isn't Trump the US president? Him recognising Jerusalem as a capital is very much a US decision.

It's kinda up to Israel to pick a capital. The US can't select their capital for them. We can tell them we don't recognize them as a country (that would be weird), but telling them we do recognize them as a country but don't like what they've picked as a capital is... absurd. Hey Mexico! We like Cancun better. Make it so.

 

[Dennisch]

It's kinda up to Israel to pick a capital. The US can't select their capital for them. We can tell them we don't recognize them as a country (that would be weird), but telling them we do recognize them as a country but don't like what they've picked as a capital is... absurd

I know that you are smarter than this. You know damn well that this isn't just some capital. And you know damn well what this could cause, and which army will be called to arms when **** hits the fan yet again?

 

[Danoff]

I know that you are smarter than this. You know damn well that this isn't just some capital. And you know damn well what this could cause, and which army will be called to arms when **** hits the fan yet again?

And why should I get involved in any of that religious mumbo jumbo? I'm not religious. I don't recognize it as a holy place. It's Israeli, if they want to call it their capital... done. Moving on. I'm not going to tell them otherwise because I'm not superstitious. It's weird for the US to try to read more into it than that.

 

[Dotini]

I don't see...

I'm sorry, I cannot help you. None so blind as those who will not see.

 

[Dennisch]

And why should I get involved in any of that religious mumbo jumbo? I'm not religious. I don't recognize it as a holy place. It's Israeli, if they want to call it their capital... done. Moving on. I'm not going to tell them otherwise because I'm not superstitious. It's weird for the US to try to read more into it than that.

I'm not religious either. But at least I can see what kind of ********* this will spark.

Your attitude in this matter is the same as Trump's:

'we do what we want and **** the rest of the world'

 

[Famine]

I'm not religious either. But at least I can see what kind of ********* this will spark.

Surely the 'problem' here is Israel calling Jerusalem its capital, and not what any other country thinks about that?

Isn't it their business - and issue - to say where they say their capital is? Why is it our business?

 

[Dennisch]

and not what any other country thinks about that?

Seeing how just mentioning it caused the Muslims to go bananas and the rest of the world facepalmed theirselves, apparently what other countries think does matter.

 

[Famine]

Seeing how just mentioning it caused the Muslims to go bananas and the rest of the world facepalmed theirselves, apparently what other countries think does matter.

But why? And what are they actually upset about?

Why is it the USA's business to say "Hey, we don't like where your capital city is so we're going to pretend you don't have one until you pick a different one"? Or the UK's? Or Germany's, or the Netherlands'?

Isn't it Israel's business? And if people are going to get upset about anything, isn't it that Israel has picked a contentious capital?

 

[Danoff]

I'm not religious either. But at least I can see what kind of ********* this will spark.

Your attitude in this matter is the same as Trump's:

'we do what we want and **** the rest of the world'

Seeing how just mentioning it caused the Muslims to go bananas and the rest of the world facepalmed theirselves, apparently what other countries think does matter.

It's not "we do what we want", it's "we shouldn't telling Israel what to do here because otherwise it becomes our problem". As @Famine pointed out, if someone doesn't like the capital that Israel picked, that'd be an issue to bring up with Israel. The US take on it should not be "oh but there's this religious group that we think we need to appease, so you should make different internal decisions". It sends a very strange signal to try to do that. The "this is not our fight" approach here is one where we don't try to meddle in the decisions of middle eastern nations, including what capital they pick.

 

[Dennisch]

You guys really don't see that this decision could potentially make a difficult situation spiral out of control?

 

[Famine]

You guys really don't see that this decision could potentially make a difficult situation spiral out of control?

Of course it could - one only has to mention Israel for much of the Middle East to throw a hissy fit after all - but it's surely missing the point of the problem...

 

[Danoff]

You guys really don't see that this decision could potentially make a difficult situation spiral out of control?

I'd say that's Israel's call. The US shouldn't get involved.

 

[05XR8]

So, the Senate backed the tax bill. Glad they're so keen on cutting taxes while not doing anything about spending. If we do end up going to war with North Korea too, that spending is about to really get out of control.

Also, the amount of add-ons they put on the bill are kind of disgraceful. I wish Congress would just vote on one thing when it comes to a bill without tacking on anything extra that has no bearing on anything else in the bill. Or if they're going to add things, they shouldn't be in chicken scratch handwriting.

Congress should just do us all a favor and pass a flat tax rate for everyone, including corporations. Something like 10% across the board, no deductions or loopholes. To me, that seems like the fairest way to make sure everyone contributes their share.

Sounds like Sunday offering at a small church.

 

[Dennisch]

Of course it could - one only has to mention Israel for much of the Middle East to throw a hissy fit after all - but it's surely missing the point of the problem...

Well yeah. The main point of the problem is the interpretation of a bunch of old books.

I'd say that's Israel's call. The US shouldn't get involved.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's hilarious.

 

[Danoff]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's hilarious.

Don't misunderstand me. The US should not get involved with where they place their capital from this moment forward. The US should not have ever gotten involved in any of it, including refusing to recognize their capital in the past (but also recognizing it, depending on which portion of the US government you're talking about).

To the extent that we can take steps to avoid meddling in their affairs, we should take those steps.

 

[Famine]

Well yeah. The main point of the problem is the interpretation of a bunch of old books.

Indeed, but on the list of things for people to smash up random shops in the Netherlands for, "The USA saying, 'oh your capital city's there is it'" is about 4,500th on the list. Well above it should be "Israel says its capital city is here".

No-one should be caring what the USA thinks about where Israel says its capital is. It's literally just an excuse for violence from people who like to commit violence - and they'll do it with or without and excuse.

Besides, the Czech Republic also stated that it recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital. Anybody rioting over that?

 

[Dennisch]

Indeed, no one should care, but indoctrination ****ed up a couple of billion minds. And when that ****** **** hits the fan big time, where will all those misplaced souls go? I can guess that.

And as a shocker, as the Czech Republic is a bit of a meh apparently.

Apparently Russia also recognised Jerusalem. Back in April.

Edit. But only West-Jerusalem.

 

[Famine]

Indeed, no one should care, but indoctrination ****ed up a couple of billion minds. And when that ****** **** hits the fan big time, where will all those misplaced souls go? I can guess that.

But ultimately none of that is a reason that any other country gets a say in where a nation chooses to site its own capital.

 

[Dennisch]

But ultimately none of that is a reason that any other country gets a say in where a nation chooses to site its own capital.

Normally it doesn't but as Jerusalem houses sites that the Muslims don't want under Jewish control it makes this case different.

Whether we want to or not, religion plays a role in the case of Jerusalem.

 

[Famine]

Normally it doesn't but as Jerusalem houses sites that the Muslims don't want under Jewish control it makes this case different.

Whether we want to or not, religion plays a role in the case of Jerusalem.

But, again, that's not the USA's problem. Or the Czech Republic's. Or anyone else's but Israel's. Which brings the problem back to "Israel says its capital city is here" and not anything Trump said or did.

And in any case, the sites are under Jewish control (sort of - they're under Israeli control, and Israel is a Jewish state. It's semantic but relevant) whether Israel says its capital is Jerusalem or not - and what the USA thinks about it is entirely moot, because it's not their country, and not their capital city to decide on.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I think you all writing under the assumption that East Jerusalem belongs to Israel. It was annexed, like Putin's Crimea.

That's why other countries have a say, and a political position, about it.

Now, of course some rogue country may recognize this annexation. As it can do with Crimea too. It is a political statement.

 

[Famine]

That's why other countries have a say, and a political position, about it.

Why?

The UN, yes. Other countries? None of their business.

 

[Dotini]

As a basic principle, I'm fond of quipping that "might makes right" and "the ends justify the means".

So Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel and Crimea belongs to Russia. By right of force, as much as everything else.

For those who would look more closely than these basics, here's the latest news, fair and unbiased.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/arabs-europe-u-n-reject-trumps-recognition-jerusalem-035135909.html
LONDON (Reuters) - Arabs and Muslims across the Middle East on Wednesday condemned the U.S. recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital as an incendiary move in a volatile region and Palestinians said Washington was abandoning its leading role as a peace mediator.

The European Union and United Nations also voiced alarm at U.S. President Donald Trump's decision to move the U.S. Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and its repercussions for any chances of reviving Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking.

Major U.S. allies came out against Trump's reversal of decades of U.S. and broad international policy on Jerusalem.

France rejected the "unilateral" decision while appealing for calm in the region. Britain said the move would not help peace efforts and Jerusalem should ultimately be shared by Israel and a future Palestinian state. Germany said Jerusalem's status could only be resolved on the basis of a two-state solution.

Israel, by contrast, applauded Trump's move. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said in a pre-recorded video message that it was "an important step towards peace" and it was "our goal from Israel's first day".

He added that any peace accord with the Palestinians would have to include Jerusalem as Israel's capital and he urged other countries to follow Trump's example.

Trump upended decades of U.S. policy in defiance of warnings from around the world that the gesture risks aggravating conflict in the tinderbox Middle East.

The status of Jerusalem is home to sites holy to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths. Its eastern sector was captured by Israel in a 1967 war and annexed in a move not recognized internationally. Palestinians claim East Jerusalem for the capital of an independent state they seek.

 

[ryzno]

Of course it could - one only has to mention Israel for much of the Middle East to throw a hissy fit after all - but it's surely missing the point of the problem...

A fairytale book?

 

[Danoff]

As a basic principle, I'm fond of quipping that "might makes right" and "the ends justify the means".

So Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel and Crimea belongs to Russia. By right of force, as much as everything else.

I'm not fond of those statements (because they're both demonstrably wrong). I don't see why the US has to pass judgment on whether a territorial takeover was right or wrong. Jerusalem and Crimea's situation is what it is. We can dig in and try to fight it or we can move on. We're not the world police, it's not a requirement for us to dig in and fight every perceived wrong (regardless of how you feel about any of these situations). Not choosing to fight over it does not mean we think it was right. It means we think we shouldn't act. Again, not our problem, not our obligation, and probably not smart to stick our noses in any further.

The status of Jerusalem is home to sites holy to the Muslim, Jewish and Christian faiths. Its eastern sector was captured by Israel in a 1967 war and annexed in a move not recognized internationally. Palestinians claim East Jerusalem for the capital of an independent state they seek.

Palestinians claim land they do not have for a state that does not exist. Sounds good. Maybe we'll set up an embassy in East Jerusalem in Palestine (if they want us to) if they can get those things sorted out. Until then it is what it is.