America - The Official Thread

[KungFury]

I didn't know it was still chic to support Palestine, from a U.S. perspective it's a good idea to keep chummy with Israel really.

I'm not seeing the problem with where the Embassy might be moved to be honest. Who cares but those desperately wanting more likes on their facebook page?

 

[UKMikey]

I didn't know it was still chic to support Palestine, from a U.S. perspective it's a good idea to keep chummy with Israel really.

I'm not seeing the problem with where the Embassy might be moved to be honest. Who cares but those desperately wanting more likes on their facebook page?

Yup, nobody cares about this front page world news...

 

[KungFury]

Yup, nobody cares about this front page world news...

Front page world propaganda maybe? In other news...

 

[UKMikey]

Front page world propaganda maybe?

Nope, front page news. It really happened and people care about it whether or not you think it's important.

 

[KungFury]

It really happened that an age old story was retold and some people mustered up their ra ra ra. There is nothing new happening in Jerusalem as neither party agrees to anything.

The corpus separatum has never been and the U.N. gave up on it in '51. Where is the outrage over Harry Truman's actions?

 

[UKMikey]

It really happened that an age old story was retold and some people mustered up their ra ra ra. There is nothing new happening in Jerusalem as neither party agrees to anything.

The corpus separatum has never been and the U.N. gave up on it in '51. Where is the outrage over Harry Truman's actions?

The situation has changed since then as I understand it. Israel annexed the remainder of Jerusalem in the Six Day War of 1967. The reunited Jerusalem isn't recognised by the UN and no countries have located embassies in it... until now.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_478

 

[Joey D]

I didn't know it was still chic to support Palestine, from a U.S. perspective it's a good idea to keep chummy with Israel really.

Why?

I don't see a reason for the US to ever support Israel. Being chummy with them has caused the US a ton of headaches with regards to Islamic extremist. Cut ties to Israel and I'm guessing terrorism becomes way less of an issue.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Why?

I don't see a reason for the US to ever support Israel. Being chummy with them has caused the US a ton of headaches with regards to Islamic extremist. Cut ties to Israel and I'm guessing terrorism becomes way less of an issue.

Abandon the Jews, the only liberal democracy in the entire region, to take a chance that some of the people shooting at us and blowing us up will forget the past 75 years or so. Good strategy.

 

[Joey D]

Abandon the Jews, the only liberal democracy in the entire region, to take a chance that some of the people shooting at us and blowing us up will forget the past 75 years or so. Good strategy.

I still don't see why that means we should stay close to them.

And it's more than just terrorism in the west. It also has to do with the countless conflicts that terrorism has caused. We've been at war continuously for 16 years and it's ridiculous the amount of money we need to spend to keep the war machine going.

I personally don't support the US supporting any country other than our own. Let other countries run themselves and sole their own problems.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Abandon the Jews, the only liberal democracy in the entire region, to take a chance that some of the people shooting at us and blowing us up will forget the past 75 years or so. Good strategy.

A lot of the shooting and blowing things up comes from the occupying forces - I'm guessing that's not what you meant though? Under the peace agreements Jerusalem is supposed to be a shared territory due to its major significance in jewish, christian and muslim history. I imagine that if the Palestinians were occupying land by military force that America would be horrified, I'm not sure why they don't seem as bothered by Israel doing so. Trump is setting back the progress in brokering a peace in a part of the world that has little to do with him. It might be best for him to do what many other Presidents have done (despite campaign trail promises from the likes of Bush, Obama, Clinton) and leave well alone.

 

[Dotini]

I think that if we look closely enough back into the history of the creation of the modern state of Israel, we will find the handiwork of Britain and America - and Harry Truman in particular.

In short, Israel is our baby. We don't (usually) abandon our child, and must perpetually take some responsibility for its behavior and actions. Trump, by insisting that the capital is Jerusalem and moving our embassy there, is throwing gasoline on a house fire. At least in this respect, he's little better than an arsonist.

 

[Danoff]

A lot of the shooting and blowing things up comes from the occupying forces - I'm guessing that's not what you meant though? Under the peace agreements Jerusalem is supposed to be a shared territory due to its major significance in jewish, christian and muslim history. I imagine that if the Palestinians were occupying land by military force that America would be horrified, I'm not sure why they don't seem as bothered by Israel doing so. Trump is setting back the progress in brokering a peace in a part of the world that has little to do with him. It might be best for him to do what many other Presidents have done (despite campaign trail promises from the likes of Bush, Obama, Clinton) and leave well alone.

Well enough?

If Palestine were a country, and the Palestinians occupied Jerusalem by force for 50 years, I imagine we'd have a Palestinian embassy at the location designated by Palestine.

I think that if we look closely enough back into the history of the creation of the modern state of Israel, we will find the handiwork of Britain and America - and Harry Truman in particular.

In short, Israel is our baby. We don't (usually) abandon our child, and must perpetually take some responsibility for its behavior and actions. Trump, by insisting that the capital is Jerusalem and moving our embassy there, is throwing gasoline on a house fire. At least in this respect, he's little better than an arsonist.

Well then so is Germany, France, lots of other bits of Europe, parts of Africa, about a gazillion islands in the Pacific, Japan, South Korea...

So my answer is an emphatic nope. Israel is not our baby, we do not have a responsibility to it, we are not responsible for its actions, and we do not have to perpetuate it. They are their own country. Since they are their own country, they get to decide where they want their embassies located.

 

[Liquid]

Well enough?

If Palestine were a country, and the Palestinians occupied Jerusalem by force for 50 years, I imagine we'd have a Palestinian embassy at the location designated by Palestine.

Palestine is a country. At least 136 of the 193 members of the United Nations recognise Palestine. That's well over half at 70%. The United States is not one of them, no, and neither is the United Kingdom.

But of the countries that do recognise Palestine, their embassies are located away from Jerusalem due to Israeli pressure and Jerusalem's corpus separatum status. Most embassies in Palestine are in Ramallah with a few in Gaza.

The only Palestinian diplomatic missions in East Jerusalem are Consulate-Generals to Jerusalem or the Palestinian National Authority in Jerusalem and these are usually run by the countries which do not recognise Palestine, such as the US, the UK, Turkey and most of western Europe, because they're not fully fledged embassies.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Palestine is a country. At least 136 of the 193 members of the United Nations recognise Palestine. That's well over half at 70%. The United States is not one of them, no, and neither is the United Kingdom.

But of the countries that do recognise Palestine, their embassies are located away from Jerusalem due to Israeli pressure and Jerusalem's corpus separatum status. Most embassies in Palestine are in Ramallah with a few in Gaza.

The only Palestinian diplomatic missions in East Jerusalem are Consulate-Generals to Jerusalem or the Palestinian National Authority in Jerusalem and these are usually run by the countries which do not recognise Palestine, such as the US, the UK, Turkey and most of western Europe, because they're not fully fledged embassies.

Yes, we should all put our faith in the voting habits of an organization that elected Saudi Arabia to it's Women's Rights Commission and selected Robert Mugabe as a Goodwill Ambassador.

 

[KungFury]

Yes, we should all put our faith in the voting habits of an organization that elected Saudi Arabia to it's Women's Rights Commission and selected Robert Mugabe as a Goodwill Ambassador.

It's been well over 50 years since they put their foot down over it, who is listening? I know when it comes to anything we care about we ignore them and I bet it's the same around the globe.

 

[Liquid]

Yes, we should all put our faith in the voting habits of an organization that elected Saudi Arabia to it's Women's Rights Commission and selected Robert Mugabe as a Goodwill Ambassador.

I wasn't supporting the UN, I was using their membership to demonstrate international recognition of the State of Palestine as a sovereign country.

 

[Imari]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/08/arizona-police-shooting-philip-brailsford-acquitted

I have to say I don't understand this at all. As some military friends have pointed out, if that was the army instead of the police he'd probably be hung out to dry for violating rules of engagement and use of force protocol. But with multiple armed policeman versus a single drunk, terrified, confused and compliant suspect there's reasonable cause for shooting the guy on a momentary odd movement as he's crawling along the floor.

Be warned that the body cam footage of the incident is very disturbing if you're thinking of watching it.

 

[Spurgy 777]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/dec/08/arizona-police-shooting-philip-brailsford-acquitted

I have to say I don't understand this at all. As some military friends have pointed out, if that was the army instead of the police he'd probably be hung out to dry for violating rules of engagement and use of force protocol. But with multiple armed policeman versus a single drunk, terrified, confused and compliant suspect there's reasonable cause for shooting the guy on a momentary odd movement as he's crawling along the floor.

Be warned that the body cam footage of the incident is very disturbing if you're thinking of watching it.

Why the 🤬 did they ask him to crawl towards them? He was face down, legs crossed, hands behind his head with several guns pointing at him. All of those police officers should be fired for being so incompetent at arresting someone, it's almost as if they were looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

 

[Dotini]

Why the 🤬 did they ask him to crawl towards them? He was face down, legs crossed, hands behind his head with several guns pointing at him. All of those police officers should be fired for being so incompetent at arresting someone, it's almost as if they were looking for an excuse to shoot someone.

I will guess that this policeman was a very immature young man - boy, really - who was crapping his pants in fear and just lost control of himself.

 

[GOPhater]

 

[wvmgmidget]

I didn't realize this site was Occupy Democrats.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I wasn't supporting the UN, I was using their membership to demonstrate international recognition of the State of Palestine as a sovereign country.

And I was pointing out that their voting record calls their integrity into question. You can't isolate one vote as credible while ignoring the other votes that make them look like a banana republic.

 

[UKMikey]

And I was pointing out that their voting record calls their integrity into question. You can't isolate one vote as credible while ignoring the other votes that make them look like a banana republic.

Did they actually vote for Robert Mugabe to become a goodwill ambassador for the UN or was it a unilateral appointment? If it's the latter then you're comparing apples and oranges. It looks like a slim majority of countries voted on the Saudi Arabia women's rights vote as well... a long way from the 70% majority which recognises Palestine as a country. Are you saying they're wrong to do so?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Did they actually vote for Robert Mugabe to become a goodwill ambassador for the UN or was it a unilateral appointment? If it's the latter then you're comparing apples and oranges. It looks like a slim majority of countries voted on the Saudi Arabia women's rights vote as well... a long way from the 70% majority which recognises Palestine as a country. Are you saying they're wrong to do so?

I'm saying if one country votes for Saudi Arabia to be involved in any way on the Women's Rights Council, other than an example of how not to observe the rights of women while running a country, and Robert Mugabe is appointed to any position that involves the word "Good", every other vote of that organization is suspect. Feel free to continue to cherry pick the votes that support your position however.

Yes, we should all put our faith in the voting habits of an organization that elected Saudi Arabia to it's Women's Rights Commission and selected Robert Mugabe as a Goodwill Ambassador.

 

[KungFury]

a long way from the 70% majority which recognises Palestine as a country. Are you saying they're wrong to do so?

It's not that simple though, don't they also recognize Israel as a state? They can't both control Jerusalem, the de facto has become reality. Trump is moving right along with that and I think he is serious about helping Palestine form a lasting sovereign state in Gaza and Sinai.

 

[UKMikey]

I'm saying if one country votes for Saudi Arabia to be involved in any way on the Women's Rights Council, other than an example of how not to observe the rights of women while running a country, and Robert Mugabe is appointed to any position that involves the word "Good", every other vote of that organization is suspect. Feel free to continue to cherry pick the votes that support your position however.

That's pretty ironic since you were the one who cherry picked the decisions which paint the UN in such a terrible light. I didn't choose which ones to focus on. The idea of the United Nations is that we're all stuck on the same planet with countries which may or may not vote the way we would like but with whom we have to learn to compromise. That's why Mugabe was deselected as goodwill ambassador, or does that somehow not count?

It's not "my way or the highway" unless you think there should be an alternative world voting organisation.

It's not that simple though, don't they also recognize Israel as a state? They can't both control Jerusalem, the de facto has become reality. Trump is moving right along with that and I think he is serious about helping Palestine form a lasting sovereign state in Gaza and Sinai.

They can't both control Jerusalem unless the corpus separatum you rejected upthread is still a reality in the minds of the voting countries. I hope Trump is serious about helping Palestine form their own state but I don't think the discontiguous and scattered territories he might propose will be easily accepted by them.

 

[UKMikey]

Double post... sorry.

 

[KungFury]

the corpus separatum you rejected

I rejected? It was rejected before I was born in reality.

 

[UKMikey]

I rejected? It was rejected before I was born in reality.

According to you. I'm referring to @Liquid's post above and to the idea that it hasn't been rejected by everyone, in reality or otherwise.

 

[KungFury]

According to you

Well, is it being observed?