America - The Official Thread

[UKMikey]

While I agree this is setting the term of empliyment I do wonder why one is so offended that someone respectfully kneeling instead of standing should become an issue for the employer..

I don't think it's a personal issue for the employers so much as it is for the revenue generating clientele amongst their matchgoers. See also outraged Republicans selling their Netflix stock after the channel's deal with the Obamas. Fortunately Netflix are pretty chill about it and appear nonchalant regarding their protests and griping tweets which are now attracting likes in the double digits.

https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/netflix-obama-deal-boycott/

 

[Mr Tree]

I don't think it's a personal issue for the employers so much as it is for their revenue generating clientele amongst their matchgoers. See also outraged Republicans selling their Netflix stock after the channel's deal with the Obamas. Fortunately Netflix are pretty chill about it and appear nonchalant regarding their protests and griping tweets which are now attracting likes in the double digits.

https://www.highsnobiety.com/p/netflix-obama-deal-boycott/

I can see that as an explanation. But are there actually people who would not go to a game because some player respectfully kneel during the anthem?

I really don't get how you can be offended by that. It's a song the entire stadium can be dancing or turning their backs to each other I still wouldn't get what would be offensive. It's just a song you know. Did the USA just become a religion or something? I really don't get it.

PS I'm realise you probably don't care either I just don't get it

 

[Dotini]

I can see that as an explanation. But are there actually people who would not go to a game because some player respectfully kneel during the anthem?

I really don't get how you can be offended by that. It's a song the entire stadium can be dancing or turning their backs to each other I still wouldn't get what would be offensive. It's just a song you know. Did the USA just become a religion or something? I really don't get it.

PS I'm realise you probably don't care either I just don't get it

You need to understand the NFL is a big, big business which is in the process of losing attendance at the games and viewers on TV. The business of America is business. The owners of the teams are fearful of fans turning away and profits declining. Controversy involving black players and political protest during the game broadcast is the last thing they want. Kneeling during the national anthem has now been banned. If necessary, the League is prepared to keep the teams off the field until the anthem is completed.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I can see that as an explanation. But are there actually people who would not go to a game because some player respectfully kneel during the anthem?

I really don't get how you can be offended by that. It's a song the entire stadium can be dancing or turning their backs to each other I still wouldn't get what would be offensive. It's just a song you know. Did the USA just become a religion or something? I really don't get it.

PS I'm realise you probably don't care either I just don't get it

Viewership of NFL games is way down. Viewership down = revenue down in the long term:

NBC’s Sunday Night Football
2017: 18.175 million
2016: 20.323 million
2015: 22.522 million

ESPN’s Monday Night Football
2017: 10.757 million
2016: 11.390 million
2015: 12.896 million

Thursday Night Football (NBC/CBS/NFL Network)
2017: 10.937 million
2016: 12.438 million
2015: 12.425 million

Surveys have been conducted and many fans attribute their not watching anymore to some players not kneeling for the anthem. I think the NFL thought 2016 would be a slight aberration but it turned out to be the start of a trend. Players are employees and their conduct can be regulated by their employer, same as any other employee in any business, within the confines of the law. Respect for the flag is a part of American culture, or it used to be anyway. In the U.S. they have laws about what can and cannot be done with the flag. It's important to them or at least many of them.

 

[Mr Tree]

You need to understand the NFL is a big, big business which is in the process of losing attendance at the games and viewers on TV. The business of America is business. The owners of the teams are fearful of fans turning away and profits declining. Controversy involving black players and political protest during the game broadcast is the last thing they want. Kneeling during the national anthem has now been banned. If necessary, the League is prepared to keep the teams off the field until the anthem is completed.

Yeah I get that's their reasoning. But would a significant number of fans be so offended they'd stop watching. And more important why can someone be so offended by people not standing up for a ****ing song.

I don't force people to stand when some nirvana song plays... or any song for that matter, some of which are very important for me.

Viewership of NFL games is way down. Viewership down = revenue down in the long term:


Surveys have been conducted and many fans attribute their not watching anymore to some players not kneeling for the anthem. I think the NFL thought 2016 would be a slight aberration but it turned out to be the start of a trend. Players are employees and their conduct can be regulated by their employer, same as any other employee in any business, within the confines of the law. Respect for the flag is a part of American culture, or it used to be anyway. In the U.S. they have laws about what can and cannot be done with the flag. It's important to them or at least many of them.

They can burn it... doesn't seem to be so many laws then...

Also I get that I don't get why people would be so offended to stop watching. Or wasn't the USA that land with freedom they so dearly care about?
Wouldn't the players free speach be more important than their feelings of said speach.

Aren't the conservatives being precious little SJW snowflakes in this instance?

 

[Tornado]

Yeah I get that's their reasoning. But would a significant number of fans be so offended they'd stop watching.
.

At least one of the NFL's major sponsors thought so, and that is more of a concern to the NFL than if it's actually true (and it might be depending on the market).

 

[Dotini]

Yeah I get that's their reasoning. But would a significant number of fans be so offended they'd stop watching. And more important why can someone be so offended by people not standing up for a ****ing song.

I don't force people to stand when some nirvana song plays... or any song for that matter, some of which are very important for me.

As has been already alluded to, pro football and the national anthem are an important part of our (USA) culture. Objectively speaking, such things may not seem comprehensible. Yet they are facts. You may need to lump this all into the postmodern basket.

 

[Scaff]

In the U.S. they have laws about what can and cannot be done with the flag. It's important to them or at least many of them.

One of which is not using it as clothing, yet many who object to kneeling have no issue with clothing.

 

[Touring Mars]

It's just a song you know.

Hardly - it is the National Anthem and the reason it is played before every game is because it is intended as a mark of respect to the country and to its citizens. I have been to many sporting occasions where national anthems are played and (with the possible exception of international football) it is rare to see people openly disrespect their own or anyone else's national anthem. I once went to a rugby match in Ireland and a girl in our group interrupted me during the Irish national anthem to ask me to take her photo - she was rather surprised when I snapped at her and asking her to wait until the anthems were over... this isn't unusual behaviour for typical sports fans...

I understand, however, what the point of these protests are and it is pretty counter-productive to try to force players (or anyone else) to 'respect' the anthem, but they should at least respect their fans and the wishes of those who pay them.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Yeah I get that's their reasoning. But would a significant number of fans be so offended they'd stop watching. And more important why can someone be so offended by people not standing up for a ****ing song.

I don't force people to stand when some nirvana song plays... or any song for that matter, some of which are very important for me.

Yet another example of your lack of understanding of American culture.

Also I get that I don't get why people would be so offended to stop watching. Or wasn't the USA that land with freedom they so dearly care about?
Wouldn't the players free speach be more important than their feelings of said speach.

Why do you assume they are being offended? That's a social justice buzzword these days. Why can't consumers make a decision about where to invest their time based on principle? You don't have freedom of speech at work. Try standing up in the middle of a corporate meeting about the upcoming end of the month deadline and giving a speech about gay rights or the price of gasoline or how to make a soft and fluffy french omelette and see what happens.

 

[TexRex]

You may need to lump this all into the postmodern basket.

 

[Mr Tree]

As has been already alluded to, pro football and the national anthem are an important part of our (USA) culture. Objectively speaking, such things may not seem comprehensible. Yet they are facts. You may need to lump this all into the postmodern basket.

Yes but wasn't america great due to it's freedoms? So to stop these players from kneeling america just became a little less free and thus a bit less great?

Hardly - it is the National Anthem and the reason it is played before every game is because it is intended as a mark of respect to the country and to its citizens. I have been to many sporting occasions where national anthems are played and (with the possible exception of international football) it is rare to see people openly disrespect their own or anyone else's national anthem. I once went to a rugby match in Ireland and a girl in our group interrupted me during the Irish national anthem to ask me to take her photo - she was rather surprised when I snapped at her and asking her to wait until the anthems were over... this isn't unusual behaviour for typical sports fans...

I understand, however, what the point of these protests are and it is pretty counter-productive to try to force players (or anyone else) to 'respect' the anthem, but they should at least respect their fans and the wishes of those who pay them.

Ok I can get your remark of tje girl. But that still doesn't really help. All you asked is to be respectfull, how is silently kneeling disrespectfull?

Yet another example of your lack of understanding of American culture.

Why do you assume they are being offended? That's a social justice buzzword these days. Why can't consumers make a decision about where to invest their time based on principle? You don't have freedom of speech at work. Try standing up in the middle of a corporate meeting about the upcoming end of the month deadline and giving a speech about gay rights or the price of gasoline or how to make a soft and fluffy french omelette and see what happens.

I have said on multiple occasions I don't understand american culture. At least I'm asking questions in an attemp to learn.

Your analogy with the meeting is completely iff though. Beeing in a meeting would be to compared with doing protest when actually playing. I can set of 'any' speach I want during my 'personal' worktime... me and my collegues have discussion on a regular basis.

But most important I assumed thzy were offended as they don't want to watch the actual game due to someone RESPECRFULLY kneeling. What other reason would there be or what word would you use instead?

 

[Joey D]

One of which is not using it as clothing, yet many who object to kneeling have no issue with clothing.

Another issue is the flag shouldn't be displayed flat, which is exactly what happens before almost every NFL game when they roll out that mass, field covering flag.

====

The NFL has way more problems than some of the players kneeling that's causing ratings drop. For one, they can quit putting utterly trash games on prime time. I mean looking at this year's prime-time schedule, there are some really questionable games. Week 3 features a thrilling Thursday Night matchup between the Browns and the Jets...who on God's green Earth wants to watch that garbage? Or better yet, the first Monday Night Football game is the Jets and the Lions. As much as I love the Lions, do people outside of Detroit really care? Probably not.

They also have some rather stupid penalties too. Thankfully the rectified the touchdown celebration thing last year, but they still need to bring some fun back into the league. To go along with that, the officiating is still horrendous. I don't think people like watching games if the officiating is so bad it looks like the game is fixed - I'm looking at you Patriots.

People also get bored when the same time, year-after-year dominates the league. There's not much the NFL can do about that, but it still contributes to a ratings drop. All you need to do is look at the Super Bowl teams for the past couple years to see why some people are now just tuning out since they pretty much know how everything will go down.

 

[Brett]

Players kneeling is the least of the NFL's problems. In the last few years, I have watched exactly one full game a year. That game was the Super Bowl each year. Outside of the Super Bowl, I found little interesting about the rest of the games.

For something that is supposed to be entertaining, the NFL has not been particularly entertaining of late. Maybe it has always been that way and I am only realizing it now. It may also have to do with a lack of free time and wanting to better utilize that free time on things deemed more entertaining or be more productive around the house/work.

Between commercials and stoppages in play, watching games is a chore. Watching roughly 15 minutes of actual, on-field play during the roughly three hour broadcast feels like a huge waste of time. There are so many other things I need to be doing on Sundays, Mondays, and Thursdays.

This also fails to mention college football on Saturdays. In many respects college football is worse than the NFL when it comes to commercials and stoppages in play. Include Saturday in the mix and there are too many nights of football.

There also has been made no mention of the cost associated with going to games. Attending games can get expensive quickly, both monetarily and time invested.

There is only so much time each week. We have so many other entertainment options, time obligations to attend to, and only so much money to spend. It is only natural that something is going to suffer. The NFL is feeling that.

 

[Liquid]

One of which is not using it as clothing, yet many who object to kneeling have no issue with clothing.

Another issue is the flag shouldn't be displayed flat, which is exactly what happens before almost every NFL game when they roll out that mass, field covering flag.

Famously, the correct way to dispose of a USA flag is to burn it. So who burns the most US flags every year? Iran? North Korea? Iraq?

Americans! Mainly the Scouts.

 

[TexRex]

We have so many other entertainment options, time obligations to attend to, and only so much money to spend. It is only natural that something is going to suffer. The NFL is feeling that.

But...but...but...the kneeling...

 

[UKMikey]

There is only so much time each week. We have so many other entertainment options, time obligations to attend to, and only so much money to spend. It is only natural that something is going to suffer. The NFL is feeling that.

I guess in a multi million dollar business the bosses are accountable to their shareholders for declining revenues and the kneelers may be acting as a convenient scapegoat for this reduced return on their investment.

I'm sure categorizing those people who fairly or unfairly cited the players who didn't stand for the anthem as their reasons for not switching onto the games as #snowflakes would betray my lack of understanding of the US national culture so I shall refrain from doing so.

 

[Rallywagon]

I guess in a multi million dollar business the bosses are accountable to their shareholders for declining revenues and the kneelers may be acting as a convenient scapegoat for this reduced return on their investment.

I'm sure categorizing those people who fairly or unfairly cited the players who didn't stand for the anthem as their reasons for not switching onto the games as #snowflakes would betray my lack of understanding of the US national culture so I shall refrain from doing so.

I understand it very well, and so, for you, I will call them snowflakes. They are every bit the snowflake as those they would call a snowflake for supporting those that kneel.

 

[UKMikey]

I understand it very well, and so, for you, I will call them snowflakes. They are every bit the snowflake as those they would call a snowflake for supporting those that kneel.

The way I'd put it is that supporting the players who kneel's right to do so whether one agrees with them or not is a vote for freedom of expression so I'm as much inclined to side with them as I am with those people who don't give a 🤬 and just want to watch the game. Sign me up to that snowflake list.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The way I'd put it is that supporting the players who kneel's right to do so whether one agrees with them or not is a vote for freedom of expression so I'm as much inclined to side with them as I am with those people who don't give a 🤬 and just want to watch the game. Sign me up to that snowflake list.

I see your point but it's a ritual that an employer expects their employees to undertake - it's like having to do the restaurant cake-and-sparklers song for a customer's birthday. No sing, no job.

 

[UKMikey]

I see your point but it's a ritual that an employer expects their employees to undertake - it's like having to do the restaurant cake-and-sparklers song for a customer's birthday. No sing, no job.

In that case I'm happy to morally chicken out and support the NFL bosses' and protesting players' position equally. Let's just start the game, already.

 

[Dotini]

The way I'd put it is that supporting the players who kneel's right to do so whether one agrees with them or not is a vote for freedom of expression so I'm as much inclined to side with them as I am with those people who don't give a 🤬 and just want to watch the game. Sign me up to that snowflake list.

Are you a music lover or concert goer? What if, when you attended the opera or the symphony or the string quartet, one of the players began playing and singing a different tune about his love of whales and tunafish? Would you simply adore that as desirable freedom of expression?

 

[Rallywagon]

To be fair, players do still have the ability to continue their protest. They just aren't allowed to kneel. It won't be quite as visual, but they can still abstain from joining in on the anthem and stay in the locker room.

Are you a music lover or concert goer? What if, when you attended the opera or the symphony or the string quartet, one of the players began playing and singing a different tune about his love of whales and tunafish? Would you simply adore that as desirable freedom of expression?

What does that have to with the price of tea?
I mean, that is definitely some postmodern interpretation of what Mikey was saying. Kneeling for the anthem is nothing like your example. Your example would be more like the quarterback stepping away from the huttle to play some pachinko.

 

[Scaff]

Are you a music lover or concert goer? What if, when you attended the opera or the symphony or the string quartet, one of the players began playing and singing a different tune about his love of whales and tunafish? Would you simply adore that as desirable freedom of expression?

A little bit of a false comparison, its not as if they start protesting in the middle of a game!

The absurdity of this is that had the NFL, Trump, etc. utterly ignored this then it would have never got to be as much of an issue as it is. The end result now if that its got to the point that regardless of what the NFL do they will be wrong.

 

[Liquid]

Are you a music lover or concert goer? What if, when you attended the opera or the symphony or the string quartet, one of the players began playing and singing a different tune about his love of whales and tunafish? Would you simply adore that as desirable freedom of expression?

Poor analogy. Players don't sign up to the NFL because they specifically want to do the anthem routine 30 times a year.

Yours would be like if an NFL player brought a bat onto the pitch and tried hitting a home run. That player would get rightfully booed.

 

[Dotini]

The spectator pays to see a show, a professional and well produced performance. It has a start, a middle and an end. He doesn't want his experience interrupted by protests and politics. If it is, he will damn well go do something else.

 

[Scaff]

The spectator pays to see a show, a professional and well produced performance. It has a start, a middle and an end. He doesn't want his experience interrupted by protests and politics. If it is, he will damn well go do something else.

You mean you don't, but feel like projecting. How very post-modern.

 

[UKMikey]

The spectator pays to see a show, a professional and well produced performance. It has a start, a middle and an end. He doesn't want his experience interrupted by protests and politics. If it is, he will damn well go do something else.

It still has a start, a middle and an end. His experience isn't interrupted in any way unless it's interrupted by his views of the rear ends of people standing up to walk out of the stadium in outrage. Respectfully kneeling for the national anthem before a match is a non-violent, non-disruptive protest.

 

[Dotini]

Frankly, I'm glad of the protests, as I think the NFL sucks as a "profession" for athletes and as a sporting event or entertainment. The whole rotten enterprise can wither and die as far as I'm concerned.

 

[UKMikey]

Frankly, I'm glad of the protests, as I think the NFL sucks as a "profession" for athletes and as a sporting event or entertainment. The whole rotten enterprise can wither and die as far as I'm concerned.

If amongst the outrage the protest provokes honest and open debate and discussion then I'm sure it isn't a complete and total waste of time regardless of how heavily the participating athletes and teams are hit in the pocket.