America - The Official Thread

[Liquid]

Just given that the first thing I can see is CNN and Buzzfeed, how reliable are these sources?

 

[Danoff]

Just given that the first thing I can see is CNN and Buzzfeed, how reliable are these sources?

Nobody knows right this second (except maybe Buzzfeed). I've seen a few members of congress calling for Mueller to show his cards so that congress can move forward with impeachment. I think that's how we'll find out. My favorite tweet on this point is:

"Good thing Pelosi is in town".

 

[PocketZeven]

Uh oh. Trump stands accused of felony obstruction of justice.

CNN has actually put in a disclaimer they cant corroborate the buzzfeed information in the caption. So I think it is not very reliable, especially since it is buzzfeed. Cohen is set to testify publicly before congress on Feb 7. So we will know by then how much truth there is in this report.

 

[Danoff]

CNN has actually put in a disclaimer they cant corroborate the buzzfeed information in the caption. So I think it is not very reliable, especially since it is buzzfeed. Cohen is set to testify publicly before congress on Feb 7. So we will know by then how much truth there is in this report.

Yea they don't have the sources, they're just reporting what buzzfeed is reporting. But the list of corroborating evidence includes actual hard evidence (emails, files, messages, etc.). I'd be surprised if this was thin air. Maybe we'll see more on it before Feb. 7.

I know that the media has been crying wolf since before the election but...

This is the first time I have seen anyone claim to have solid evidence (hard evidence and multiple testimonies) of a direct crime by Trump himself (obstruction of justice). So the game has changed. Either the proof exists or it does not, and right now the fairly detailed claims are that the proof exists. It's also bad for Trump that the democrats control the house.

I'm reminded of a phrase that was pervasive during the days leading up to the Clinton impeachment... where there's smoke there's fire. We've all seen the smoke, someone's claiming to have seen the fire.

 

[PocketZeven]

Yea they don't have the sources, they're just reporting what buzzfeed is reporting. But the list of corroborating evidence includes actual hard evidence (emails, files, messages, etc.). I'd be surprised if this was thin air. Maybe we'll see more on it before Feb. 7.

I know that the media has been crying wolf since before the election but...

This is the first time I have seen anyone claim to have solid evidence (hard evidence and multiple testimonies) of a direct crime by Trump himself (obstruction of justice). So the game has changed. Either the proof exists or it does not, and right now the fairly detailed claims are that the proof exists. It's also bad for Trump that the democrats control the house.

I'm reminded of a phrase that was pervasive during the days leading up to the Clinton impeachment... where there's smoke there's fire. We've all seen the smoke, someone's claiming to have seen the fire.

If it ever comes that far (felony of treason), I just hope he doesnt make a deal with Pence to resign and only to be pardoned immediately after. I much prefer him to complete his Term and then serve a long sentence in jail. If proven guilty it is much worse then what brought the end to Nixon.

 

[Danoff]

If it ever comes that far (felony of treason), I just hope he doesnt make a deal with Pence to resign and only to be pardoned immediately after. I much prefer him to complete his Term and then serve a long sentence in jail. If proven guilty it is much worse then what brought the end to Nixon.

Even if the claims are true, and the evidence exists. And even if the house impeaches him. I seriously doubt we see any jail time for Trump. That's, in my opinion, extreeeeeeemely unlikely. I'm thinking impeachment is starting to come into view of something that has a decent chance of happening (maybe not likely... not sure about that). But removal from office, jail time, or resignation really strike me as fringe still (in order of increasing fringiness).

Can an impeached Trump who finishes his term be re-elected? Gosh... that would be almost as absurd as electing a reality TV personality.

 

[PocketZeven]

Even if the claims are true, and the evidence exists. And even if the house impeaches him. I seriously doubt we see any jail time for Trump. That's, in my opinion, extreeeeeeemely unlikely. I'm thinking impeachment is starting to come into view of something that has a decent chance of happening (maybe not likely... not sure about that). But removal from office, jail time, or resignation really strike me as fringe still (in order of increasing fringiness).

Can an impeached Trump who finishes his term be re-elected? Gosh... that would be almost as absurd as electing a reality TV personality.

I guess it is wishfull thinking that a privileged morally corrupt white american male could finally feel the concequences of his choices. Is an impeached POTUS allowed to run for re-election?

 

[Novalee]

Michael T. Slager, the white police officer whose video-recorded killing of an unarmed black motorist in North Charleston, S.C., starkly illustrated the turmoil over racial bias in American policing, was sentenced on Thursday to 20 years in prison, after the judge in the case said he viewed the shooting as a murder.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/us/michael-slager-sentence-walter-scott.html

I am happy to see a corrupt cop get real jail time for murder instead of hero medals

Been a good day for punishment of criminal cops

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jason-van-dyke-sentencing_us_5c424f8fe4b0bfa693c38b64


judge sentenced former Chicago police officer Jason Van Dyke to nearly seven years for the 2014 murder of 17-year-old Laquan McDonald.



And now this

Nashville Police Officer Andrew Delke has been indicted on a charge of first degree murder, prosecutors said, after a video showed him shooting a man in the back as he ran away.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/18/us/nashville-police-officer-andrew-delke-indicted/index.html

 

[Biggles]

I guess it is wishfull thinking that a privileged morally corrupt white american male could finally feel the concequences of his choices.

Well, it does happen, as we have seen.

What is mind-boggling to me is that someone as openly corrupt, narcissistic, devious & weirdly inarticulate & stupid as Trump could have convinced such a big chunk of the American public to vote for him. Regardless of what happens from here on, I will never recover from the disillusionment. I fully accept that people have differing political opinions, but that people would be so taken in by someone as obviously a terrible person as Trump ... that's a tough pill to swallow.

 

[Dotini]

I will ever recover

What do you mean, "ever recover"??

 

[huskeR32]

What do you mean, "ever recover"??

The subsequent sentence suggests to me that he meant to say "never."

 

[Biggles]

What do you mean, "ever recover"??

The subsequent sentence suggests to me that he meant to say "never."

"never".

It is depressing to reflect that my two daughters are becoming adults in the era of Trump.

 

[Dotini]

The subsequent sentence suggests to me that he meant to say "never."

Yeah, I would have thought so, too. But since I wanted to make a serious reply, I couldn't bring myself to do so when the post was so sloppily composed.

 

[Biggles]

sloppily composed.

... it's called a sticky key.

 

[Dotini]

... it's called a sticky key.

Firstly, thank you for correcting the error. Secondly, congratulations for, in effect, asking such an excellent, interesting and important question. Please note that I finally gave you a "like" for it. Also, I'd like to say it's a bitch to be so emotionally impacted by a political event. My great friend John S, the respected Seattle book store owner, came down with a severe case of shingles the day after Bush was reelected. His face and his general health has never been the same since. I do have a hopefully rational answer to your basic question. But the most important thing is to not allow this situation to adversely affect your mental, physical or emotional health. Your kids need you healthy.

 

[TexRex]

came down the with a severe case of shingles

Came down the what?

 

[Danoff]

Well, it does happen, as we have seen.

What is mind-boggling to me is that someone as openly corrupt, narcissistic, devious & weirdly inarticulate & stupid as Trump could have convinced such a big chunk of the American public to vote for him. Regardless of what happens from here on, I will never recover from the disillusionment. I fully accept that people have differing political opinions, but that people would be so taken in by someone as obviously a terrible person as Trump ... that's a tough pill to swallow.

I too have been permanently affected by the Trump administration. Not quite in the same way, but similar.

I knew my parents, and my wife's parents, would vote for whoever is on the red team. The republicans could nominate an actual clown... like one dressed as a clown... not just with orange hair and face... ok... bad example. The republicans could nominate a shoe to run for president, and I think my parents and my wife's parents would vote for that shoe. That might sound like hyperbole, but I can hear the arguments now "Well at least a shoe won't be pushing the liberal agenda. The shoe won't be trying to run my life. I think this country could really do with 4 years of government gridlock - it would be a heck of a lot better than increased taxes. Anything is better than Hillary."

Anyway, so I kinda figured on that part. The things that have really blown me away are for one the wall... which is just nonsense, and spending (which they usually hate). It has been shocking to see them just swallow the sudden importance of this totally useless boondoggle hook line and sinker. This is not something they cared about 8 years ago, and now it's super important. The other one is the Russia investigation. These are the same people who pronounced Clinton guilty as sin for moment number one - and who still stand by accusations of murder (I'm not looking to weigh in on that, just saying that they're quick to convict). But the Russia thing is just a liberal media conspiracy to stop their guy. He couldn't possibly have done anything wrong, he's their guy. There's no way their guy could have done something bad. Hillary? Lock her up. Trump? As innocent and saintly as they come. Bill? Lock him up. Impeach! Obama? Kenyan. Trump? pure as the driven snow.

 

[Scaff]

This is quite wonderful



And don't worry the trolling is in a nice way (minor language warning)

 

[TexRex]

This is quite wonderful



And don't worry the trolling is in a nice way (minor language warning)

"That's better than you."

 

[PocketZeven]

I too have been permanently affected by the Trump administration. Not quite in the same way, but similar.

I knew my parents, and my wife's parents, would vote for whoever is on the red team. The republicans could nominate an actual clown... like one dressed as a clown... not just with orange hair and face... ok... bad example. The republicans could nominate a shoe to run for president, and I think my parents and my wife's parents would vote for that shoe. That might sound like hyperbole, but I can hear the arguments now "Well at least a shoe won't be pushing the liberal agenda. The shoe won't be trying to run my life. I think this country could really do with 4 years of government gridlock - it would be a heck of a lot better than increased taxes. Anything is better than Hillary."

Anyway, so I kinda figured on that part. The things that have really blown me away are for one the wall... which is just nonsense, and spending (which they usually hate). It has been shocking to see them just swallow the sudden importance of this totally useless boondoggle hook line and sinker. This is not something they cared about 8 years ago, and now it's super important. The other one is the Russia investigation. These are the same people who pronounced Clinton guilty as sin for moment number one - and who still stand by accusations of murder (I'm not looking to weigh in on that, just saying that they're quick to convict). But the Russia thing is just a liberal media conspiracy to stop their guy. He couldn't possibly have done anything wrong, he's their guy. There's no way their guy could have done something bad. Hillary? Lock her up. Trump? As innocent and saintly as they come. Bill? Lock him up. Impeach! Obama? Kenyan. Trump? pure as the driven snow.

Interesting to learn some more from your background. Even though your parents and inlaws being conservatives you have enough common sense to make your own choices. That cant be said for a lot of people. You (and others) are the exact reason why the USA need to move to a multiparty system. Not all voices are heard when there is only choice between red and blue. You seem like a moderate that is pro-gun and moderate on other issues. However the US political system is too black and white to give you an actual choice, instead of 2 evils. If you are pro-gun you are almost forced to choose for a bunch old white people led by a baboon.

There have been discussions about the libertarian (protest) vote, but to be honest even 3 parties do not represent the diversity of the american people. It just seems like forced to to choose between either a shoe or a clown and virtually nothing in between.

 

[Joey D]

If the BuzzFeed report is correct (which I'm skeptical, but we will see), then I agree with impeachment.

I'll be curious to see how Republicans spin it though. Bill Clinton was impeached for obstruction of justice and pretty much any Republican I've ever come across loves to bring that up. It's a fair play of course since Clinton did obstruct justice, but I'm wondering if those same people will look at Trump the same way? I'm guessing not, but who knows.

I'll also be curious to see how it plays out if there is actual evidence of collusion with Russia. It seems like most Republicans I know are from the Baby Boomer generation and thus grew up with a heavy anti-Soviet and anti-Russia sentiment. I can't image they'd be OK with a US president in cahoots with Russia, especially since 30 years ago Russia was the enemy.

 

[Dotini]

I'll also be curious to see how it plays out if there is actual evidence of collusion with Russia. It seems like most Republicans I know are from the Baby Boomer generation and thus grew up with a heavy anti-Soviet and anti-Russia sentiment. I can't image they'd be OK with a US president in cahoots with Russia, especially since 30 years ago Russia was the enemy.

Probably Trump made a pledge to help resuscitate US-Russian relations. But like Reagan's inspired and successful work 30 years ago, it will likely turn out to be have been a lie. "Beautiful, useful or necessary lies are sometimes justified as preferable to an ugly truth."

Russia's got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise
.....
In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make "iron-clad guarantees" that NATO would not expand "one inch eastward." Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany's western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO's expansion.
......
Just as a pledge not to expand NATO in 1990 helped end the Cold War, so too may a pledge today help resuscitate the U.S.-Russian relationship.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

 

[TenEightyOne]

"Beautiful, useful or necessary lies are sometimes justified as preferable to an ugly truth."

What's the origin of that quote?

Russia's got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise
.....
In early February 1990, U.S. leaders made the Soviets an offer. According to transcripts of meetings in Moscow on Feb. 9, then-Secretary of State James Baker suggested that in exchange for cooperation on Germany, U.S. could make "iron-clad guarantees" that NATO would not expand "one inch eastward." Less than a week later, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to begin reunification talks. No formal deal was struck, but from all the evidence, the quid pro quo was clear: Gorbachev acceded to Germany's western alignment and the U.S. would limit NATO's expansion.
......
Just as a pledge not to expand NATO in 1990 helped end the Cold War, so too may a pledge today help resuscitate the U.S.-Russian relationship.
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

The text of the minutes says that the US said they "could" offer a deal, but no deal was struck. Re-unification talks began without that deal existing and were completed without that deal existing.

The US can't make guarantees for NATO, they have to be made by NATO with the US at the table with other members... and even if a deal had been struck it's hard to see what validity it would have had at the end of 1991 when one party ceased to exist as a political entity.

So the US didn't break a promise because it didn't make it, couldn't make it, and it would have expired within a year or so.

 

[Dotini]

What's the origin of that quote?

Why do you ask?

The text of the minutes says that the US said they "could" offer a deal, but no deal was struck. Re-unification talks began without that deal existing and were completed without that deal existing.

The US can't make guarantees for NATO, they have to be made by NATO with the US at the table with other members... and even if a deal had been struck it's hard to see what validity it would have had at the end of 1991 when one party ceased to exist as a political entity.

So the US didn't break a promise because it didn't make it, couldn't make it, and it would have expired within a year or so.

Well, I certainly don't care. Perhaps that was what the Russian understood, but **** them. We mean to (eventually) conquer them, take everything of value they have, and give it to our friends like Israel.

 

[Novalee]

Well, I certainly don't care. Perhaps that was what the Russian understood, but **** them. We mean to (eventually) conquer them, take everything of value they have, and give it to our friends like Israel.

The problem with your views is Putin is worse than how bad you may think the american govt is . He is not the fair peace loving prince you try and make mr vlad out to be . However it does explain in my mind why some people want to keep making excuses for trumps clear bromance with vlad . I call it incahoots

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why do you ask?

You presented it as a quote but there was no source. I was interested in the source. Is the source you?

Well, I certainly don't care. Perhaps that was what the Russian understood, but **** them.

Why post the story then?

 

[Dotini]

You presented it as a quote but there was no source. I was interested in the source. Is the source you?

The aphorism is distilled from my readings in Sun Tzu, Niccolo Machiavelli and George RR Martin. I've used it, or variations, numerous times in these forums. Shocked and appalled that you hadn't noticed until now.

Why post the story then?

I'm interested in a realistic understanding of the historical facts. The past. I don't care about the future. I've done my bit, I failed, and now it's somebody else's turn.

 

[ryzno]

I don't really feel sorry for the people being furloughed.
I saw a few lines at food banks for the furloughed workers. It's funny to me seeing them, they have enough money for new Mercedes, Porsches and wanna be monster trucks. They can afford that and their nice houses but can't afford food? That ain't my problem you can't manage money!
I was out of work for a month, worked for a tree service for a few weeks that disappeared when payday came around(my lawyer is dealing with that) and today is literally my first week back to work. I haven't seen a check in over 2 months(I won't see one for another 2 weeks) and I still have money for food, my lawyer, ciggs etc...
I'm pretty sure they make about as much as me if not more.
Thing is you don't see me driving a car I can't afford or a house I can't afford if I miss work for a period of time.
I've also worked at poorly managed companies where I'd have to wait an entire pay period to get my check from the previous pay period cause they didn't have money(it was nice getting a months pay in a lump sum!). I look at them as wanna be entitled rich people who can't afford the life they live.
Cry me a river...
As far as the impeachment BS, I roll my eyes. Buzzfeed, seriously!
Y'all forget they(not Buzz...) wanted to impeach him before he even took the seat. #witchhunt
I'm looking forward to Trumps presser about the shutdown and wall that should happen in a few days if I'm correct.
I'm also enjoying watching everyone get all excited about Trump possibly getting impeached for the umpteenth time! You wanna talk about a waste of government resources and money! There ya go son!
All they are doing is pissing off his loyal supporters. The same ones y'all think are idiots! I look at them as idiots, idiots on the brink of orgasm every time they think they finally got him and poof it's nothing.
Just let him finish his term, stop wasting money on dumb investigations, stop calling people who voted for him every name in the book and don't have Hillary on the ballot and they might actually win. Even though I won't be voting blue for a good while. You don't call people names and expect a vote. Shows who the true idiots are!

PS: Have fun with Pence, a true Republican if you impeached Trump!!!

 

[Danoff]

I don't really feel sorry for the people being furloughed.
I saw a few lines at food banks for the furloughed workers. It's funny to me seeing them, they have enough money for new Mercedes, Porsches and wanna be monster trucks. They can afford that and their nice houses but can't afford food? That ain't my problem you can't manage money!
I was out of work for a month, worked for a tree service for a few weeks that disappeared when payday came around(my lawyer is dealing with that) and today is literally my first week back to work. I haven't seen a check in over 2 months(I won't see one for another 2 weeks) and I still have money for food, my lawyer, ciggs etc...
I'm pretty sure they make about as much as me if not more.
Thing is you don't see me driving a car I can't afford or a house I can't afford if I miss work for a period of time.
I've also worked at poorly managed companies where I'd have to wait an entire pay period to get my check from the previous pay period cause they didn't have money(it was nice getting a months pay in a lump sum!). I look at them as wanna be entitled rich people who can't afford the life they live.
Cry me a river...

You're pretty confusing here. Are you talking about people who are not allowed to work? Or people who are being asked to work without pay? Are you claiming that the people that the food lines are set up for have mismanaged their money? Or are those different people among the million or so affected? And are you suggesting that a company not being able to pay you until 2 weeks late is good management? Is that how you think the federal government should be run? And do you think it makes it easier or harder for that company to find good employees?

As far as the impeachment BS, I roll my eyes. Buzzfeed, seriously!

You need to take a step back for a moment. Buzzfeed is standing behind their story, which Mueller's team's statement doesn't entirely refute. The story, in this case, is that evidence exists of the President committing a felony. You don't think that's worth taking seriously? You drank the Kool Aide.

Y'all forget they(not Buzz...) wanted to impeach him before he even took the seat. #witchhunt

Means they're probably going to be more likely to break the story than Fox.

Just let him finish his term, stop wasting money on dumb investigations,

It does actually kinda matter whether the President is guilty of the things that he's accused of. I know you'd care if this was Hillary.

PS: Have fun with Pence, a true Republican if you impeached Trump!!!

Impeachment is not the same as removal from office. Look up Bill Clinton.

 

[Imari]

I don't really feel sorry for the people being furloughed.
I saw a few lines at food banks for the furloughed workers. It's funny to me seeing them, they have enough money for new Mercedes, Porsches and wanna be monster trucks. They can afford that and their nice houses but can't afford food? That ain't my problem you can't manage money!

Do you not think that perhaps all government employees aren't paid the same wages? The ones driving new Porsches probably aren't the ones at food banks.

I've used it, or variations, numerous times in these forums. Shocked and appalled that you hadn't noticed until now.

Holy self importance, Batman!