America - The Official Thread

[Imari]

I hope I can find it again but someone on Reddit linked that he was taken off suicide watch just shortly before he kicked his own bucket. That would seem to play into the “time to himself” theory.

Seriously, I’m amazed this guy was not under 24/7 surveillance to carry this out. Have they announced how he did it?

Yeah, I saw that too. His last suicide attempt was two weeks ago. He was still in jail, his situation hadn't changed. If he was suicidal then, obviously he'd be suicidal now. I struggle to think of any reasonable justification for removing the suicide watch.

He had plenty to be suicidal about. He knew he was about to be thrown under the bus. His life was over, and it could only get worse for him from here out. It doesn't surprise me that a man in his situation would try to kill himself. All it took to kill him was to remove the safeguards stopping him from committing suicide.

I wonder what the legal standpoint is on intentionally providing a suicidal person the means to kill themselves. Next thing you know, that'll turn out not to be against the law at all.

 

[andrea]

The dude was about to start singing. He had to die.

 

[Biggles]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-retweets-post-implying-clintons-epstein-death

"Trump retweets someone’s conspiracy theory so that Fox News can report about the conspiracy theory, so that other people read and tweet about the conspiracy theory, so that Trump can retweet other people’s tweets about the conspiracy theory" ... & so it goes.

 

[zzz_pt]

If this suicide was indeed "permitted", I see it as the US government or justice system failing all the victims, past (now adults) current and future, of child abuse. How hard can it be to keep 1 criminal way from something he can kill himself with. Especially such a high profile one.

 

[Dotini]

I've been offline for couple days fishing, but will now chip in my 2¢ on the Epstein scandal. Which are only questions.
Is it true he had been taken off suicide watch?
Is it true the guards were dismissed at the time?
Is it true the cameras were turned off "for maintenance" at the time?

 

[NotThePrez]

If this suicide was indeed "permitted", I see it as the US government or justice system failing all the victims, past (now adults) current and future, of child abuse. How hard can it be to keep 1 criminal way from something he can kill himself with. Especially such a high profile one.

Probably because there's a chance some of those government folks, especially towards the top, may be involved in a bad way.

Imitates Kermit sipping tea.

 

[McLaren]

Being mindful of the link, this insider info is claiming that there may not be any surveillance footage to begin with since there's been a lot of discussion on the conspiracy of "malfunctioning" cameras on the web.

Jeffrey Epstein's death may never be conclusively determined, because we're told standard practice in the area where he was detained is that cameras do not point inside cells.

Sources familiar with the correctional facility in question tell TMZ, there are cameras in the Special Housing Unit -- the SHU -- but SOP is that cameras do not point into the cells. We're told cameras capture, among other things, the doors to each cell to determine if anyone walks in or out, but they don't point inside.

One source familiar with the facility says the drill is for guards to pass by each cell in intervals ranging from 15 to 30 minutes depending on the circumstances.

Unless there's a one-off cell with a camera pointing inside -- and we're told there have been rare situations where this is the case -- the time and manner of his death may never be captured.

https://www.tmz.com/2019/08/11/jeffrey-epstein-death-hanging-no-camera-special-housing-unit/

 

[VolkswagenX]

Is it true he had been taken off suicide watch?

I believe this is true but it should not even matter. Even when you're not on suicide watch, everyhing should be done to prevent someone from committing suicide. They really need to come with a good explanation on how he did before I believe he wasn't killed.

Is it true the guards were dismissed at the time?

I heard that too and that sounds very strange to me.

Is it true the cameras were turned off "for maintenance" at the time?

I heard that the camera's malfunctioned. I to like to learn more about this.

Are there any U.S. media news networks critical of Epstein suicide?

 

[Dotini]

Are there any U.S. media news networks critical of Epstein suicide?

The MSM I have seen seem to be critical that Epstein's victims will be denied justice from further criminal prosecution of Epstein. In terms of the suspicious nature of the death, so far they seem to be satisfied that it was negligence of the part of sleeping guards and possible lassitude in several standard procedures being properly followed. There seems no documentation or justification for taking him off suicide watch. No cameras were monitoring the inside of his cell. On suicide watch, he had to stay in a glass-walled cell with a guard watching him at all times. Off suicide watch he was supposed to have a cellmate, who for a time was a former cop, but at the time of his death there was no cellmate. CNN seemingly allude to his ability to pay off corrupted guards and prison officials to enable him to thwart prosecution through suicide by proxy. In short, corruption is acceptable but conspiracy is taboo.

 

[TexRex]

CNN seemingly allude to his ability to pay off corrupted guards and prison officials to enable him to thwart prosecution through suicide by proxy. In short, corruption is acceptable but conspiracy is taboo.

TFW you realize anyone paid off by an individual for a reason such as that is involved in a conspiracy.

Oops.

 

[Dotini]

TFW you realize anyone paid off by an individual for a reason such as that is involved in a conspiracy.

Oops.

View attachment 842517

If I am Epstein and I offer an impoverished guard to spare his mother's life in addition to paying him $100K for assisting my suicide, I am clearly committing a crime. CNN understandably chooses to spin corruption and downplay conspiracy. When and if it emerges what really happened, I may allow myself some feelings, but probably not till then.

I am also studiously avoiding recounting any of the many outlandish conspiracies touted on Reddit r/Conspiracy or alternative media.

 

[McLaren]

The idea Epstein paid off a guard to go away does sound more plausible than a secret society that arranged for everyone to give him 15 minutes to himself. That's about as far as I'll go down the conspiracy theory hole though, b/c there will never be evidence that Trump, Clinton, Andrew, or anyone else who had a history with Epstein had involvement in his death.

 

[TexRex]

CNN understandably chooses to spin corruption and downplay conspiracy.

Not giving time to crackpot notions without evidence to substantiate crackpot notions is not actually "downplaying" crackpot notions, but that, as well as invoking the proverbial "they", is the rhetoric that the crackpot uses to trigger other crackpots.

 

[Dotini]

Epstein was autopsied, and it was attended by his camp's representatives. So far the cause of death is unknown pending further investigation. The investigation of the case, which includes a conspiracy count, is ongoing.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffr...ogist-michael-baden-to-watch-over-his-autopsy

Calls for investigation into Epstein's elite protectors are very mild indeed.

 

[Famine]

I am also studiously avoiding recounting any of the many outlandish conspiracies touted on Reddit r/Conspiracy or alternative media.

Is it true he had been taken off suicide watch?
Is it true the guards were dismissed at the time?
Is it true the cameras were turned off "for maintenance" at the time?

Epstein was autopsied, and it was attended by his camp's representatives. So far the cause of death is unknown pending further investigation. The investigation of the case, which includes a conspiracy count, is ongoing.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/jeffr...ogist-michael-baden-to-watch-over-his-autopsy

Calls for investigation into Epstein's elite protectors are very mild indeed.

"I feed the pigeons, I sometimes feed the sparrows too - it gives me a sense of enormous wellbeing."

 

[Dotini]

Scandals are such fun distractions from intractable events such as mass shootings.

Trump and his then-girlfriend, Melania Knauss, Epstein, and Maxwell at the Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Florida, on February 12, 2000.
Davidoff Studios/Getty Images

https://www.businessinsider.com/ghi...le-of-madam-who-would-recruit-girls-for-him-3

https://www.businessinsider.com/ghislaine-maxwell-terramar-project-charity-jeffrey-epstin-2019-7

 

[Famine]

Personally I think it's amazing that the prison guards on duty that night died in a car crash next week.

 

[Liquid]

Those in the know being taken out and those around those in the know being taken out is a bit like when Genghis Khan died; to make sure no-one knew where his grave was, all the slaves who dug his burial mound were killed by soldiers. All the soldiers who killed the slaves were also killed by a different group of soldiers.

 

[Biggles]

I've been offline for couple days fishing, but will now chip in my 2¢ on the Epstein scandal. Which are only questions.
Is it true he had been taken off suicide watch?
Is it true the guards were dismissed at the time?
Is it true the cameras were turned off "for maintenance" at the time?

Dotini, offline for a couple days? Stretches credulity.
On a "fishing trip" while these events unfolded? Convenient.

 

[Dotini]

Dotini, offline for a couple days? Stretches credulity.
On a "fishing trip" while these events unfolded? Convenient.

I will admit those of us in the law enforcement community take a very dim view of child molesters. I will also admit that child molesters fare very poorly in our jails or prisons. But I sternly insist my fishy alibi is sound and the monster (Dungeness crab) I killed with my own hands was lawfull and legally recorded on my fishing record.

 

[Northstar]

While I think solving mass shootings is a complex problem, there is a gun related problem with a rather easy solution. That problem is kids finding guns and accidentally killing themselves or others.

This just popped up on my local news site and it's absolutely sickening. How on earth can there be no charges on a case like this? How on earth can whoever was responsible for that gun live with themselves?

This is one of the biggest problem I have with our gun laws. It's far too easy to obtain them (mainly too many loopholes and not enough required training) and not enough accountability in the event an accident occurs. In my opinion, if a child finds your gun and accidentally kills themselves or someone else, it should be an instant first-degree murder charge for whoever is responsible for that gun.

 

[Danoff]

This is one of the biggest problem I have with our gun laws. It's far too easy to obtain them (mainly too many loopholes and not enough required training) and not enough accountability in the event an accident occurs. In my opinion, if a child finds your gun and accidentally kills themselves or someone else, it should be an instant first-degree murder charge for whoever is responsible for that gun.

First-degree murder doesn't describe that scenario. But involuntary manslaughter is a better description. It would depend on the circumstances, how reasonable the precautions that were taken had been, etc. Felony child endangerment also seems to fit.

 

[Swagger897]

First-degree murder doesn't describe that scenario. But involuntary manslaughter is a better description. It would depend on the circumstances, how reasonable the precautions that were taken had been, etc. Felony child endangerment also seems to fit.

Agreed, not seeing how there isn't any sign of negligence that couldn't be charged against the homeowners.

7 years old is also plenty old enough to get to just about any area in a house, and attempt to open any tamper/child-proof object that isn't locked too. At that age, that's a failure of parenting and communication to the child.

 

[TexRex]

It's a parent's duty, among many others, to ensure their child/children respect(s) anything that can harm them; this certainly isn't limited to firearms but they should be high on the list if they are present.

I appreciate that multiple redundancies in locking away firearms isn't always practical, particularly when one is implemented for home protection, but ensuring everyone around them knows how to compose themselves around them becomes that much more important.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I think the only certain way would be to have it locked away in a safe place.

 

[PocketZeven]

I think the only certain way would be to have it locked away in a safe place.

But that would seriously implicate its usefulness as a weapon of protection though.

 

[TexRex]

I think the only certain way would be to have it locked away in a safe place.

As suggested above, the degree to which a firearm can reasonably be secured is dependant upon its purpose.

Because I keep guns for recreation rather than protection, I have no issue with employing multiple redundancies in locking them up; the gun themselves are kept unloaded, they're individually locked and they're contained in a gun safe. Because that safe isn't fireproof, rounds are kept in a separate safe that is.

Because I think it's unwise to assume my guns are the only guns my child could potentially come in contact with, and because there are times that they are not locked away, I made sure my daughter knew how to be safe around guns that aren't locked away.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Because I think it's unwise to assume my guns are the only guns my child could potentially come in contact with, and because there are times that they are not locked away, I made sure my daughter knew how to be safe around guns that aren't locked away.

In my area of the country guns are commonplace and have been all my life. When I was kid there was no such thing as a gun safe in someones home, guns were kept in gun racks (many open and unsecured) and handguns were generally in a drawer that also was not locked. As a child I was taught guns were off limits without parents supervision and I obeyed those limitations.

Now whats the difference 60 years later? Were we smarter as kids, did our parents do a better job of raising us that the parents have done the last generation or so? We had guns in our vehicles in the school parking lot during hunting season and all males had a pocketknife in their pocket in school and we never shot or stabbed anyone and to my knowledge it never happened at any schools in my area then either?

Maybe society should look back and see what our parents and schools did different. It apparently worked much better than what we are doing in society today. But one thing we were responsible for our action from a very young age and poor performance was your fault and not an excuse. You could not do grade level work in school, you repeated the grade level, sorry no participation trophies or safe places. The students knew which bathroom to use by the plumbing in their underwear so another modern issue resolved.

We were raised you were responsible for your own actions good or bad, your behavior reflected on your family and parents and screw up to bad you would be punished which could make sitting a little tender for a few minutes and grounded from the things you wanted to do.

But everyone says our parents were wrong but you got to admit we had no where near the issues in society then that we have today with everyone needing their safe place, participation trophy and no discipline because you may hurt their little feeling! When you eliminate personal responsibility and make an excuse up for everything what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Danoff]

Now whats the difference 60 years later? Were we smarter as kids, did our parents do a better job of raising us that the parents have done the last generation or so? We had guns in our vehicles in the school parking lot during hunting season and all males had a pocketknife in their pocket in school and we never shot or stabbed anyone and to my knowledge it never happened at any schools in my area then either?

60 years later we take more responsibility for ensuring the safety of our children.

Maybe society should look back and see what our parents and schools did different. It apparently worked much better than what we are doing in society today.

Did it? Or did a bunch of kids die from accidental shooting?

But one thing we were responsible for our action from a very young age and poor performance was your fault and not an excuse.

And the occasional 4 year old (or 10 year old) paid for it with their lives. No excuses kid, you're the one who shot yourself.

You could not do grade level work in school, you repeated the grade level, sorry no participation trophies or safe places. The students knew which bathroom to use by the plumbing in their underwear so another modern issue resolved.

Tangent!

We were raised you were responsible for your own actions good or bad, your behavior reflected on your family and parents and screw up to bad you would be punished which could make sitting a little tender

We have learned that beating children for misbehaving is not the healthiest way to raise them. That one is kinda done. Hitting kids teaches all the wrong messages, there are other ways to achieve discipline.

But everyone says our parents were wrong but you got to admit we had no where near the issues in society then that we have today

Citation needed.

I'm with you in spirit, but I disagree with almost everything you said.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

60 years later we take more responsibility for ensuring the safety of our children.



Did it? Or did a bunch of kids die from accidental shooting?



And the occasional 4 year old (or 10 year old) paid for it with their lives. No excuses kid, you're the one who shot yourself.



Tangent!



We have learned that beating children for misbehaving is not the healthiest way to raise them. That one is kinda done. Hitting kids teaches all the wrong messages, there are other ways to achieve discipline.



Citation needed.

I'm with you in spirit, but I disagree with almost everything you said.

Say what you want but I strongly disagree that our kids are safer today under today's system than they were back then under a completely different way of doing things. You claim that "hitting kids" teaches the wrong messages and yes abuse may but controlled discipline apparently did not. Never had school age kids going in and shooting up schools back then like today!

All of today's way is better supporters cannot or will not admit that violence both in and out of school by our youth and pitiful performance and outcomes in schools (we had learned to count change out for a dollar in 2nd grade! High school grads cannot do it today.) do not achieve as good of results as the old days. Keep saying that old ways are wrong while society continues to deteriorate and get more violent it seems by the day.

REMOVING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and giving every failure a name or excuse was the biggest mistake ever made for both our youth and society. It may hurt their little feeling to actually hear the truth!