America - The Official Thread

[Scaff]

and they also walk on two feet and have opposable thumbs, must be human beings




Are we still talking about undocumented immigrants? They can't engage in any activity that requires documentation, that makes them of no use outside of illegal activities, is this condition desirable to you?

They contribute to the US economy in a massive way, without being able to access the vast majority of the aid it offers for lower wage earners.

So no that argument doesn’t stack up, so why are they so undesirable?

 

[Tornado]

I always find it weird that nobody who uses the argument that illegal immigrants are criminals because they broke immigration law, and that means illegal immigration brings more criminals in to commit more crime sees how circular it is.

I'm still kind of confused why we've had three pages now of people bringing up scare mongering attack ad talking points in this thread as if they are actually supposed to work on anyone here.

 

[novcze]

I mean, besides working on construction crews, in fields and on farms, cleaning houses, bus tables, cook food and a whole lot of other not illegal jobs that undocumented workers actually do? I man, look, I get the gist of what your after. Just not savvy on your view of the situation.

Employing undocumented worker is illegal activity.

Under the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) it is illegal for employers to knowingly employ undocumented workers. When employees are hired, their employer is required to ask for documents. The documents must show their identity and authorization to work in the U.S.

https://www.workplacefairness.org/undocumented-workers

They contribute to the US economy in a massive way, without being able to access the vast majority of the aid it offers for lower wage earners.

Exactly. Imagine if they were all legal, they would contribute even more to the economy and society while having access to everything that legal status ensures. Win win situation for both immigrants and citizens. So can we agree that being undocumented isn't desirable for anybody?

 

[Joey D]

Exactly. Imagine if they were all legal, they would contribute even more to the economy and society while having access to everything that legal status ensures. Win win situation for both immigrants and citizens. So can we agree that being undocumented isn't desirable for anybody?

I'm not sure about that. The things illegal immigrants do for work helps keep the price down on those sorts of things. By making them legal and thus having to have employers pay at least minimum wage, collect taxes, collect social security, etc, the increased cost will get passed along to the consumer. As a result, consumers will use less because it costs more. This includes things like food, restaurants, hotels, and housing.

Honestly, I don't understand why it even matters and I really don't understand why you care so much about illegal immigrants in America since you're in the Czech Republic. It might be an issue in your country, I have no idea, but it seems like it'd be better to try and fight that than worrying about what's going on in the states.

 

[Scaff]

Employing undocumented worker is illegal activity.

Under the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA) it is illegal for employers to knowingly employ undocumented workers. When employees are hired, their employer is required to ask for documents. The documents must show their identity and authorization to work in the U.S.

https://www.workplacefairness.org/undocumented-workers



Exactly. Imagine if they were all legal, they would contribute even more to the economy and society while having access to everything that legal status ensures. Win win situation for both immigrants and citizens. So can we agree that being undocumented isn't desirable for anybody?

So the only reason that people object to illegal immigrants is because the want them to be given legal status?

I think you may be misreading Trumps base in that case.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Anyone else a little concerned that the administration appears to be using CBP as bagmen?

Faceless, no official designations, no name tags, no government vehicles. What the hell is CBP even doing detaining American citizens nowhere near the border? Keep an eye on these enforcement agencies (including ICE) that have more or less direct chain of command to the president, without something like the Pentagon to moderate, and with a ground force ideologically aligned with Trump.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

You are aware that the majority of illegal immigrants don’t sneak across borders, but overstay on visas!

I wouldn't do that either.

Oh God, they're Illegal!?
I guess we just have to round them up in camps and shoot them then.

I think that is a little extreme, how about we just send them home instead.

Anyone else a little concerned that the administration appears to be using CBP as bagmen?

Faceless, no official designations, no name tags, no government vehicles. What the hell is CBP even doing detaining American citizens nowhere near the border? Keep an eye on these enforcement agencies (including ICE) that have more or less direct chain of command to the president, without something like the Pentagon to moderate, and with a ground force ideologically aligned with Trump.

Federal law enforcement agents enforcing the law, but since they were sent by the Trump administration they are evil bagmen. You know vandalism is not a form of peaceful protests. Oh, and, we are all faceless now.

"Use your words!" lmao! Who's teaching these kids this crap?

Spoiler: I think I heard an f-bomb

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I wouldn't do that either.

I think that is a little extreme, how about we just send them home instead.

Federal law enforcement agents enforcing the law, but since they were sent by the Trump administration they are evil bagmen. You know vandalism is not a form of peaceful protests. Oh, and, we are all faceless now.

"Use your words!" lmao! Who's teaching these kids this crap?

Spoiler: I think I heard an f-bomb

Two masked generically uniformed men that won't provide identification or credentials get out of a generic dodge minivan and detain an American. You really see nothing wrong with that? You don't think its weird that customs and border protection are arresting Americans completely outside their scope of duty?

United States Customs and Border Protection (CBP) is the largest federal law enforcement agency of the United States Department of Homeland Security, and is the country's primary border control organization. It is charged with regulating and facilitating international trade, collecting import duties, and enforcing U.S. regulations, including trade, customs, and immigration.

I don't recall saying they were evil, but it should be a little concerning to anyone how they are being deployed. They are also not stating reasons for arrest or even actually arresting people. They are detaining them without even stating the basis for it. C'mon Crunch, this ain't good.

 

[Boston77]

C’mon.

Unmarked vans pulling up next to you, 4-5 military garbed men jump out and grab you. Then you are driven around until you end up underground at the courthouse.
Your Miranda rights have NOT been given and no charge of any crime has been given.
You really ok with that???? Really????

I might also add that federal officers were sent to protect federal property. Walking down the sidewalk blocks away on public property is not a friggin crime

 

[Joey D]

So Trump supporters are just going to stand around and give kudos while we're on our way to martial law?

There is no way that what's going on in Portland is remotely Constitutional. One can argue violations of the First, Third, Fourth, Fifth, and Eighth Amendments, the one that's the biggest glaring problem is the Tenth. Federal agents do not have the authority to enforce state laws. The only thing that's been made a federal law is whatever that willy wave protect our monuments law was. Other than than, they really have no business being there unless an actual Federal crime in being committed.

The Border Patrol is also in the wrong too. While they do have jurisdiction within 100-miles of a border (which Portland is), they do not have the authority to random stop people unless there's reasonable suspicion of an immigration violation. Really, if Federal agents are going to be used, it should probably be the US Marshals.

The whole thing is just shady as hell and it wouldn't matter who the president was, I'd be dead set against it.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Two masked generically uniformed men that won't provide identification or credentials get out of a generic dodge minivan and detain an American. You really see nothing wrong with that?

Maybe they were trying to avoid something.
They don't have to 'use their words' to identify themselves, their uniforms are clearly marked police.

You don't think its weird that customs and border protection are arresting Americans completely outside their scope of duty?

I Think they are there to protect federal property. Perhaps they don't even have the authority to arrest and they are rounding up criminals and taking them to someone that does.

Your Miranda rights have NOT been given and no charge of any crime has been given.
You really ok with that???? Really????

There is a crowd of people in the video. They walk past protesters and go right for the one guy that has his hands in the air. It seems pretty clear to me that that guy knew they were coming for him.

 

[Northstar]

Isn’t this one of those things Republicans insisted Obama was going to do?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Maybe they were trying to avoid something.
They don't have to 'use their words' to identify themselves, their uniforms are clearly marked police.

I Think they are there to protect federal property. Perhaps they don't even have the authority to arrest and they are rounding up criminals and taking them to someone that does.

There is a crowd of people in the video. They walk past protesters and go right for the one guy that has his hands in the air. It seems pretty clear to me that that guy knew they were coming for him.

Crunch, this is not the way to do things in a free society. Even criminals are entitled to be treated fairly. Do you agree that criminals should be treated fairly?

Being thrown in a van by unnamed "POLICE" (I'm sure you could buy those patches on Etsy...hardly a legitimate credential) for unspecified reasons is not being treated fairly. If the person has done something unlawful, and there is evidence to support it, then by all means issue and arrest warrant and have the US Marshalls or local police formally arrest them. But this is some back alley Caracus/Tehran ****, and it has no place in the USA.

Isn’t this one of those things Republicans insisted Obama was going to do?

Real headline from 2015:
Texas Governor Deploys State Guard To Stave Off Obama Takeover

 

[Joey D]

Being thrown in a van by unnamed "POLICE" (I'm sure you could buy those patches on Etsy...hardly a legitimate credential)

You mean like this:

Anyone can buy the same military-style gear worn by federal officers making secretive arrests in Portland

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Crunch, this is not the way to do things in a free society. Even criminals are entitled to be treated fairly. Do you agree that criminals should be treated fairly?

Being thrown in a van by unnamed "POLICE" (I'm sure you could buy those patches on Etsy...hardly a legitimate credential) for unspecified reasons is not being treated fairly. If the person has done something unlawful, and there is evidence to support it, then by all means issue and arrest warrant and have the US Marshalls or local police formally arrest them. But this is some back alley Caracus/Tehran ****, and it has no place in the USA.

So do you think the guy was 'disappeared'? If he was seen commiting a crime, they have a duty to apprehend him. These 'grab and go' detainments are to keep the other 'peaceful' protesters from interfering.

You mean like this:

Anyone can buy the same military-style gear worn by federal officers making secretive arrests in Portland

Maybe you guys are right. Maybe these are just gay kidnappers who ordered their stormtrooper gear online, and are now going around snatching up hot protester guys for use as sex slaves.

 

[McLaren]

Just FYI, this tactic of showing up in unmarked vehicles, abducting people without a word or any rights given, & thinking it's perfectly ok b/c they have Police on their uniform is the same tactic Cartels have been doing for years.

Shadowy kidnappers and men committing grisly crimes in broad daylight are often dressed in formal police or military gear, suggesting no difference between the good guys and the bad guys, between the drug cartels and the government trying to stop them.

According to a growing number of reports out of Mexico today, the major drug trafficking operations (DTOs) – like Los Zetas, the Gulf Cartel, La Familia Michoacana and its latest incarnation, Caballeros Templarios (Knights Templar) -- are not only donning uniforms but brandishing insignias, badges, even decals on their vehicles that are indistinguishable from that of the federal or local police forces.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/bloody-mexican-gangs-make-it-official-with-uniforms-insignia

The whole issue of reading one's rights & properly identifying themselves is what separates our authorities from criminals.

 

[Joey D]

If he was seen commiting a crime, they have a duty to apprehend him.

If they're Border Patrol, no, they don't:

For Non-Immigration Offenses

• CBP agents may make arrests for any offense against the United States committed in the presence of the officer, or for any felony the officer has reasonable grounds to believe (i.e. probable cause) the person to be arrested has committed.
• To exercise this arrest authority, the CBP agent must be in the course of duties related to the enforcement of the immigration laws and must find there to be a likelihood that the person will escape before an arrest warrant may be obtained

If they're "protecting monuments" they aren't in the course of duties related to the enforcement of immigration laws. If it truly is the Border Patrol doing this, they are overstepping their powers. It really needs to be the US Marshals doing this for it to be legal. Even then, depending on what the person is doing, it's not up to the Federal Government to issue arrests, it's up to the state. And taking someone off the street and bringing them to someone who can arrest them is also illegal because it's in violation of the Fifth Amendment. You can't just take someone and then go find someone to arrest them.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Anyone else a little concerned that the administration appears to be using CBP as bagmen?

Faceless, no official designations, no name tags, no government vehicles. What the hell is CBP even doing detaining American citizens nowhere near the border? Keep an eye on these enforcement agencies (including ICE) that have more or less direct chain of command to the president, without something like the Pentagon to moderate, and with a ground force ideologically aligned with Trump.

This is exactly the sort of thing 2A fanatics have been working themselves into a froth over for decades, right? Shouldn’t they be—pardon the pun—up in arms over this?

I genuinely can’t see how anybody can defend this. It’s state-sponsored terrorism, but some folks are so eager to kiss Trump’s ring that they’re incapable of considering how wrong this would look if it were happening anywhere else in the world. It’s terrifying to see some of the reports coming out of Portland.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Just FYI, this tactic of showing up in unmarked vehicles, abducting people without a word or any rights given, & thinking it's perfectly ok b/c they have Police on their uniform is the same tactic Cartels have been doing for years.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/bloody-mexican-gangs-make-it-official-with-uniforms-insignia

The whole issue of reading one's rights & properly identifying themselves is what separates our authorities from criminals.

If they're Border Patrol, no, they don't:


If they're "protecting monuments" they aren't in the course of duties related to the enforcement of immigration laws. If it truly is the Border Patrol doing this, they are overstepping their powers. It really needs to be the US Marshals doing this for it to be legal. Even then, depending on what the person is doing, it's not up to the Federal Government to issue arrests, it's up to the state. And taking someone off the street and bringing them to someone who can arrest them is also illegal because it's in violation of the Fifth Amendment. You can't just take someone and then go find someone to arrest them.

You guys act like these agents are just willy nilly going around kidnapping people with no basis in law.

What would be the point of making arrests if the cases are just going to be thrown out because the arrests were illegal?

If the local authorities are unable, or unwilling to protect federal property, the fed has every right to do it for them.

It’s state-sponsored terrorism

Oh, good grief.

 

[Joey D]

You guys act like these agents are just willy nilly going around kidnapping people with no basis in law.

What would be the point of making arrests if the cases are just going to be thrown out because the arrests were illegal?

If the local authorities are unable, or unwilling to protect federal property, the fed has every right to do it for them.

It doesn't have a basis in law. Federal agents can't just turn up, unidentified, and take people off the street without probable cause. There are plenty of videos circulating online (I'd link them but they are not GTP friendly) that shows an unmarked vehicle driving up, agents getting out, grabbing someone, and putting them in the vehicle, before speeding off. That's not legal. If you're being arrested, you have rights and you can't just be arrested for the hell of it, especially by federal agents if you're not breaking federal law.

What's going on is enough to have the US Attorney's office for Oregon call for an investigation:

US Attorney For Oregon Calls For Investigation Into Portland Protester Arrests

This signifies, at best, that there is at least some evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Federal Government. It's also worth mentioning that Billy J. Williams, the US Attorney for Oregon, was reappointed by Trump.

The Attorney General for Oregon, Ellen Rosenblum, is also filing a lawsuit against the Federal Government too. If there weren't grounds for a lawsuit, they wouldn't pursue it.

You have way too much faith that the Federal Government is acting in the best interest of its people here. It's not, it's throwing aside a pretty good justice system in favour of doing whatever the hell it wants.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Just FYI, this tactic of showing up in unmarked vehicles, abducting people without a word or any rights given, & thinking it's perfectly ok b/c they have Police on their uniform is the same tactic Cartels have been doing for years.

https://www.foxnews.com/world/bloody-mexican-gangs-make-it-official-with-uniforms-insignia

The whole issue of reading one's rights & properly identifying themselves is what separates our authorities from criminals.

This is an important concept that I think many Americans take for granted. We have faith that our civil servants (including law enforcement) are acting in honesty, good faith, and to the benefit of society as a whole. The corrosive effects when that faith is lost are enormous. I remember driving through Mexico city with my family as a kid (circa 1997) and being stopped by the police for no stated reason - our car had US plates. They told us we could pay them $200 or they would take us to jail. They obviously had no sense of accountability....they knew exactly what they were doing. I really don't want that kind of garbage happening in the US. I know immigrants (of the properly documented type, FYI) from Mexico, Venezuela, Iran, and Turkey...they're all here, in the US, to get away from that kind of day to day grind-you-into-the-ground corruption.

I remember another time sitting in the Dallas building department with a coworker/mentor who was from Mexico. I was complaining about how crappy the customer service was at the building department as we had been waiting for 2 hours to speak to an inspector. He laughed and said that in Mexico, you would have to pay, under the table, every single person you interacted with to get what you wanted. Imagine living in a place where that kind of corruption permeates almost every aspect of every day life.

We're lucky to live in a country where you can assume that the tremendously unfriendly DMV worker or building inspector will do their job without demanding a bribe, and you would never question the legitimacy (question the methods all you want) of police or police action. What's happening in Portland makes you question it. Like I've never seen Police in the US doing something where I asked myself..."is that legitimate?". I'm asking that right now.

If you believe it's necessary to have face-masked, un-badged, camouflaged-wearing, federal border patrol agents waiting in the shadows in unmarked vans to "protect" federal buildings from petty vandalism by American citizens then I don't really know what to say. It's hard for me to see a good faith angle there. Maybe they could hire private security instead? That tends to work better to prevent vandalism...but I don't think preventing is the end goal here.

 

[Dotini]

Anyone else a little concerned that the administration appears to be using CBP as bagmen?

Faceless, no official designations, no name tags, no government vehicles. What the hell is CBP even doing detaining American citizens nowhere near the border? Keep an eye on these enforcement agencies (including ICE) that have more or less direct chain of command to the president, without something like the Pentagon to moderate, and with a ground force ideologically aligned with Trump.

Yes, the underlying news and legalities entailed are very interesting and worth in-depth informed and intelligent discussion. If I recall correctly, authorities had previously declared a state of riot after many weeks of sustained violence in the city. Offhand, I'd characterize the situation as similar to the CHOP/CHAZ autonomous zone sustained for several weeks in Seattle, but worse. One of the factions involved are the anarchists, the ones with the circled A logo.

For convenience, we may eventually refer to a comprehensive list of rebellions in the US, some of which involved federal forces on the scene.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States

Somewhat related is the group of (17?) counties in eastern Oregon which want to secede and join the state of Idaho.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

It doesn't have a basis in law. Federal agents can't just turn up, unidentified, and take people off the street without probable cause. There are plenty of videos circulating online (I'd link them but they are not GTP friendly) that shows an unmarked vehicle driving up, agents getting out, grabbing someone, and putting them in the vehicle, before speeding off. That's not legal. If you're being arrested, you have rights and you can't just be arrested for the hell of it, especially by federal agents if you're not breaking federal law.

What's going on is enough to have the US Attorney's office for Oregon call for an investigation:

US Attorney For Oregon Calls For Investigation Into Portland Protester Arrests

This signifies, at best, that there is at least some evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the Federal Government. It's also worth mentioning that Billy J. Williams, the US Attorney for Oregon, was reappointed by Trump.

The Attorney General for Oregon, Ellen Rosenblum, is also filing a lawsuit against the Federal Government too. If there weren't grounds for a lawsuit, they wouldn't pursue it.

You have way too much faith that the Federal Government is acting in the best interest of its people here. It's not, it's throwing aside a pretty good justice system in favour of doing whatever the hell it wants.

If they want to investigate, let them investigate. And anyone can sue anyone for anything, or nothing.

No one on this forum knows what happens or what is said once the suspect is in the car. for all we know he is mirandized and formally arrested.

Did you read the whole article you linked to? It says no name tags is to prevent doxxing of officers for their safety. And the grab and go tactic is to get the suspect out of the area before an angry mob can form. That is safer for all involved.

What's happening in Portland makes you question it [legitimacy*]. Like I've never seen Police in the US doing something where I asked myself..."is that legitimate?". I'm asking that right now.

The agents are getting the perp, and getting the hell out of Dodge. I am sure you have seen plenty of videos of what happens to marked police cars and cops getting mobbed while trying to make an arrest. The rioters have forced law enforcement to change it's tactics.

The only reason anyone is questioning the legitimacy of the situation is because Trump is the president. And, if it's Trump, it has to be bad.**

@Joey D I have seen a lot of videos also, but just the graffiti alone is so obscene, they can't be posted here. This has been going on in Portland, every night, for over a month and a half. 51 days, assuming it is still going on tonight. Why haven't the local authorities done anything to stop it? The city and the state are both run by democrats why do they just allow this to go on? You don't see this crap happening in Texas and George Floyd was from here.

*Clarifying 'it' after omitting prior comments.
** a little Goya reference thrown in for effect.

 

[novcze]

I'm not sure about that. The things illegal immigrants do for work helps keep the price down on those sorts of things. By making them legal and thus having to have employers pay at least minimum wage, collect taxes, collect social security, etc, the increased cost will get passed along to the consumer. As a result, consumers will use less because it costs more. This includes things like food, restaurants, hotels, and housing.

I like that you are honest.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

 

[Boston77]

Never mind. You are to thick to penetrate.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Never mind. You are to thick to penetrate.

Maybe you guys just need some facts, and not just emotional bull crap.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Oh, good grief.

It bears repeating:

Some folks are so eager to kiss Trump’s ring that they’re incapable of considering how wrong this would look if it were happening anywhere else in the world.

A secret police force that (unconstitutionally) snatches up people not supportive of the president. Bailouts for billionaires as the rest of the population suffers. Minimizing the CDC’s role in an ongoing pandemic.

Put down the Koolaid, man.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Some folks are so eager to kiss Trump’s ring that they’re incapable of considering how wrong this would look if it were happening anywhere else in the world.

I agree, optics are a thing. But the fact is, the Oregon authorities are not doing their job.

A secret police force that (unconstitutionally) snatches up people not supportive of the president. Bailouts for billionaires as the rest of the population suffers. Minimizing the CDC’s role in an ongoing pandemic.

Your throwing all that crap against the wall, aren't ya. It won't stick.

I will take on the secret police part. What is unconstitutional about it? Unmarked cop cars are legal in most states. And other than the obvious, that is that.

Republicans don't riot and cause chaos in the streets. so we really don't worry about unmarked cop cars. (unless we are speeding, we like to speed)

 

[UKMikey]

Republicans don't riot and cause chaos in the streets.