America - The Official Thread

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Biden's "New Green Deal" is not going to go over very well with the blue collars in Pennsylvania. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I am just saying that Coal Miners and Steel Workers in Pennsylvania are a pretty large group.

There are 54,000 workers employed in Pennsylvania in the coal and metals industry, including mining, production and supply chain jobs and a state voting population of 10,000,000. Even if workers within those industries and their extended families voted in effect against Biden, it's barely a drop in the ocean.
 
https://reason.com/2020/07/16/bidens-new-green-new-deal-is-the-same-as-the-old-green-new-deal/

Biden's "New Green Deal" is not going to go over very well with the blue collars in Pennsylvania. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I am just saying that Coal Miners and Steel Workers in Pennsylvania are a pretty large group.

Trump only won Pennslyvania bt 44,000 votes, that's not exactly a wide margin. In 2012, Obama beat Romney by 309,000 votes, and in 2008, Obama beat McCain by 620,000 votes. The even voted in favor of John Kerry, Al Gore, and Bill Clinton as well. It seems like the state leans more Democrat than Republican and I'm guessing the only reason Trump won was that Hillary was terrible.
 
Holland, and you’re shifting the goalposts, you made no distinction at all.

so context doesn't matter, I guess ...


Answer this, what is the problem with undocumented immigrants in the US?

being undocumented isn't enough? It's actually worse for the people to be undocumented if we really care about human rights.



Right. If you don't agree with someone, label them as something that you don't know them to be.

It seems to me that you've expressed contempt over this sort of thing. Yeah, here it is:

I suppose you hold those you oppose to standards to which you don't hold yourself.

So sorry you can't distinguish lighthearted jabs on gaming forum from far-left cancel culture.


Like I said, there's no "maybe" there. Stop lying.

I added 'maybe' because it's the result of our fruitful discussion, isn't it?
Why you think I lie about stuff that's easily searchable. Maybe scare quotes were mistaken with quotation marks? I need to look it up how it works in English.
 
being undocumented isn't enough?
People who lack appropriate documentation lack it as a result of implementation of legislation that isn't reasonably justified. People who lack such documentation are illegal because an individual or group has decided they are illegal despite having committed no criminal act unrelated to how they came to be in the country, rather than because being in the country without appropriate documentation is inherently wrong, because it isn't. The statute is founded upon the notion of malum prohibitum; it's wrong because there exists a statute that prohibits it.

I'm a legal citizen of the United States in possession of all appropriate documentation, but I can still be held accountable for criminal acts unrelated to how I [legally, though this isn't meaningful] came to be in this country. My being in possession of documentation that someone has deemed necessary for me to demonstrate my legal citizenship status doesn't protect others from acts I perpetrate against them in some unforeseen and/or hypothetical scenario.

So sorry you can't distinguish lighthearted jabs on gaming forum from far-left cancel culture.
You literally inferred from my comments that I'm something that I'm not, and conveyed as much.

You didn't agree with my comments regarding the appropriateness of statutes that criminalize individuals merely for their presence, and so you labeled me as being in favor of open borders, which I'm not. You couldn't even be bothered to elaborate on the invocation, I'd posit, because doing so would reveal that such a label wasn't reasonably founded upon the remarks to which it was in response.

You also didn't agree with my comments regarding such statutes being related to others lacking appropriate justification, and so you suggested that my advocating for prople to ignore such statutes, which I wasn't actually doing, was indicative of anarchist views which I don't actually hold.

Now you're blaming me for not being tolerant of your attacks.

I added 'maybe' because it's the result of our fruitful discussion, isn't it?
You got called out on it and you've since attempted to change the context into that of a joke. Like I said, the sarcasm defense is having a bit of a moment.

Why you think I lie about stuff that's easily searchable.
I don't have the slightest idea. Perhaps it's a compulsion. Maybe you think others stupid when they're actually not. Could be something else that hasn't occurred to me.

Maybe scare quotes were mistaken with quotation marks?
What scare quotes? You didn't utilize either scare quotes or quotation marks when referring to the ability of supposed communists in the US to purchase offensive statues of Lenin:

When communists in the US can buy offensive statues of Lenin, Russians can buy "offensive" statues from the US too.
I wonder who was bigger mass murderer Lenin or Roosevelt? :lol:

https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/andrey-filatov-statues/index.html
Stop lying.
 
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gaming forum

I haven't played Gran Turismo in years, yet I still spend time here. Why? This site consistently has many informed, reasonable, level-headed people who make honest efforts to engage in fruitful debate. If you can't be one of those people, that's fine, but don't try and blame it on GTP.

far-left cancel culture

:rolleyes: Insomuch as "cancel culture" even exists, it's a natural byproduct of two things conservatives/Republicans always loudly proclaim to love: the free market and freedom of expression.
 
No its not, now please answer the question.


People who lack appropriate documentation lack it as a result of implementation of legislation that isn't reasonably justified. People who lack such documentation are illegal because an individual or group has decided they are illegal despite having committed no criminal act unrelated to how they came to be in the country, rather than because being in the country without appropriate documentation is inherently wrong, because it isn't. The statute is founded upon the notion of malum prohibitum; it's wrong because there exists a statute that prohibits it.

Yes, but I still don't know why you guys want undocumented immigrants. If you create group in a society that isn't recognized by the law, you strip that group from their human rights

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.



You literally inferred from my comments that I'm something that I'm not, and conveyed as much.

and you conveyed your disagreement, it was noticed


What scare quotes? You didn't utilize either scare quotes or quotation marks when referring to the ability of supposed communists in the US to purchase offensive statues of Lenin:


This scare quotes, you accused me of lying when I used 'maybe' here, so I thought you didn't realize that I'm not quoting my original post here but appeasing your apparent disagreement with plain communist.

I found funny story that Russians want to buy your "offensive" statues while "maybe communists" in the US are buying our offensive statues and shared the story in this thread, that's all.

But I certainly need to look up how these marks work in English if we are so serious now.

Stop lying.

I'm certainly not lying, maybe not paying enough attention.
 
Yes, but I still don't know why you guys want undocumented immigrants. If you create group in a society that isn't recognized by the law, you strip that group from their human rights

Article 7.

All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.

Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 15.

(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 22.

Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.

(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.
(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.
(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.
(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 25.

(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.





and you conveyed your disagreement, it was noticed





This scare quotes, you accused me of lying when I used 'maybe' here, so I thought you didn't realize that I'm not quoting my original post here but appeasing your apparent disagreement with plain communist.



But I certainly need to look up how these marks work in English if we are so serious now.



I'm certainly not lying, maybe not paying enough attention.
Now you’re just being obtuse, I want a path to citizenship or at least the right to work, and you damn well know that’s not the issue.

Now answer the question, and leave aside the undocumented part.
 
I just read that Biden wants to make the owners of "assault weapons" (which is what they call almost every gun, nowadays) register them with the government, and also pay a $200 fee for doing so. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Here, in California they tried the same thing about 2 years ago. It was "mandatory", and failure to comply would subject you to "fines and/or imprisonment." I know tons of people who legally own AR-15s, and none of them did it. Never even considered it.

0.0% <-- This is the percentage of cops who would be interested in trying to confiscate those weapons and arrest those people.

So, um yeah, good luck with that. :dunce:
 
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Yes, but I still don't know why you guys want undocumented immigrants. If you create group in a society that isn't recognized by the law, you strip that group from their human rights
The lack of documentation isn't meaningful because documentation isn't meaningful. Documentation in this instance merely indicates that an individual is exempt from prosecution for violation of a statute that isn't reasonably justified.

You can't get past this because you don't have a reasonable argument against.

and you conveyed your disagreement, it was noticed
The point is that you've demonstrated a propensity to cast labels upon individuals with whom you disagree, labels that themselves hit wide of the mark, when you've previously demonstrated contempt for this exact tactic.

You couldn't offer a compelling argument against that of an individual with whom you disagreed, so you attacked the individual.

This scare quotes, you accused me of lying when I used 'maybe' here, so I thought you didn't realize that I'm not quoting my original post here but appeasing your apparent disagreement with plain communist.
So you didn't actually mean "maybe communist" and are confirming the original label wasn't sarcastic as you indicated at one point? You're all over the place.

I also don't disagree that the individual is communist. I simply don't know. What I've said is that one can't reasonably infer that an individual is communist based solely on them having purchased a statue depicting a notable communist. But that doesn't matter when you just want to cast labels.
 
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I just read that Biden wants to make the owners of "assault weapons" (which is what they call almost every gun, nowadays) register them with the government, and also pay a $200 fee for doing so. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Here, in California they tried the same thing about 2 years ago. It was "mandatory", and failure to comply would subject you to "fines and/or imprisonment." I know tons of people who legally own AR-15s, and none of them did it. Never even considered it.

0.0% <-- This is the percentage of cops who would be interested in trying to confiscate those weapons and arrest those people.

So, um yeah, good luck with that. :dunce:

You underestimate the desire for cops to arrest and confiscate things.

But almost everyone already registers their guns with the government. When I bought my pistol, I had to turn in a bunch of paperwork at the local police station.
 
But almost everyone already registers their guns with the government. When I bought my pistol, I had to turn in a bunch of paperwork at the local police station.
Right, but they're talking about people who have already done all that. They want them to do it again.
 
I just read that Biden wants to make the owners of "assault weapons" (which is what they call almost every gun, nowadays) register them with the government, and also pay a $200 fee for doing so. :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Here, in California they tried the same thing about 2 years ago. It was "mandatory", and failure to comply would subject you to "fines and/or imprisonment." I know tons of people who legally own AR-15s, and none of them did it. Never even considered it.

0.0% <-- This is the percentage of cops who would be interested in trying to confiscate those weapons and arrest those people.

So, um yeah, good luck with that. :dunce:
You are not supposed to choose which laws to follow and if you do and brake the law you must expect punishment.
Aaaaaaaaaand GO!!!

:lol:
 
I heard tell that Biden plans on personally raping the daughters of every constituent in America (so long as they are under 18), and since he's taking away everyone's guns, cars, police officers, gasoline, Congressional majorities and Supreme Court nominations, you can't do anything about it,


A bold strategy, and one that will definitely earn the admiration of at least one voter.
 
Undocumented immigrants are recognised by the law though.
Illegal immigrants. Ask yourself, (for everyone, not just you eran) would you knowingly break the law by smuggling yourself into another country? I know I wouldn't.
 
Now you’re just being obtuse, I want a path to citizenship or at least the right to work, and you damn well know that’s not the issue.

Now answer the question, and leave aside the undocumented part.


Yes, if we leave aside the illegal - undocumented part, we have this https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/apply-citizenship and this https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employment/temporary-worker-visas.html :lol:,
but since I'm able to follow the context I think you mean legalization of undocumented immigrants. Which is achieved through legislature and not by saying that undocumented immigrants are not problem. Part of the issue why there is no such legislation is that proponents of legalization and immigration reform have not presented new or innovative ways to legalize this population while accounting for the criticisms and worries of opponents.



The lack of documentation isn't meaningful because documentation isn't meaningful. Documentation in this instance merely indicates that an individual is exempt from prosecution for violation of a statute that isn't reasonably justified.

You can't get past this because you don't have a reasonable argument against.

How so, I'm saying that documentation is needed for other legal activities, such as employment, did you know that illegal immigrants face an estimated wage penalty of 11.3 percent relative to legal immigrants?

Or do you think that labor market regulations are not reasonably justified too or that citizens should not have control over migration into their own country?


The point is that you've demonstrated a propensity to cast labels upon individuals with whom you disagree, labels that themselves hit wide of the mark, when you've previously demonstrated contempt for this exact tactic.

Yes, but far-left is using this tactic to shut up the dissent (sometimes even in real-life) and I'm using it to exaggerate impression that some people give here, so they can think about what they say and how it sound to people with different viewpoint.



So you didn't actually mean "maybe communist" and are confirming the original label wasn't sarcastic as you indicated at one point? You're all over the place.


scare quotes

noun
plural noun: scare quotes; noun: scare quote; plural noun: scarequotes
  1. quotation marks placed round a word or phrase to draw attention to an unusual or arguably inaccurate use.

I used it to indicate arguably inaccurate use, because even "maybe communist" is arguably innacurate.

My whole original post was in tongue-in-cheek style about funny story covering buying of "offensive" statues. So again exaggeration on purpose.


Undocumented immigrants are recognised by the law though.

yes they are, as illegal aliens but that's not desirable for anybody



Aaaaaaaaaand GO!!!

:lol:


but it's true, I would either register and pay the fee to comply or risk punishment. And I would contact my elected representatives about the issue and/or vote in different representatives who better represent my opinions.
 
Illegal immigrants. Ask yourself, (for everyone, not just you eran) would you knowingly break the law by smuggling yourself into another country? I know I wouldn't.

You don’t stop being recognised by the law just because you do something illegal.

I don’t think I would cross the border illegally unless the situation was desperate, but I also realise that not everyone is as privileged as me.


yes they are, as illegal aliens but that's not desirable for anybody

They are recognised as human beings.
 
Illegal immigrants. Ask yourself, (for everyone, not just you eran) would you knowingly break the law by smuggling yourself into another country? I know I wouldn't.
Yes, if the drivers to do so we’re sufficiently motivating.

You are aware that the majority of illegal immigrants don’t sneak across borders, but overstay on visas!

https://www.theatlantic.com/interna...crisis-people-overstaying-their-visas/587485/

Yes, if we leave aside the illegal - undocumented part, we have this https://www.uscis.gov/citizenship/learners/apply-citizenship and this https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-visas/employment/temporary-worker-visas.html :lol:,
but since I'm able to follow the context I think you mean legalization of undocumented immigrants. Which is achieved through legislature and not by saying that undocumented immigrants are not problem. Part of the issue why there is no such legislation is that proponents of legalization and immigration reform have not presented new or innovative ways to legalize this population while accounting for the criticisms and worries of opponents.





How so, I'm saying that documentation is needed for other legal activities, such as employment, did you know that illegal immigrants face an estimated wage penalty of 11.3 percent relative to legal immigrants?

Or do you think that labor market regulations are not reasonably justified too or that citizens should not have control over migration into their own country?




Yes, but far-left is using this tactic to shut up the dissent (sometimes even in real-life) and I'm using it to exaggerate impression that some people give here, so they can think about what they say and how it sound to people with different viewpoint.






scare quotes

noun
plural noun: scare quotes; noun: scare quote; plural noun: scarequotes
  1. quotation marks placed round a word or phrase to draw attention to an unusual or arguably inaccurate use.

I used it to indicate arguably inaccurate use, because even "maybe communist" is arguably innacurate.

My whole original post was in tongue-in-cheek style about funny story covering buying of "offensive" statues. So again exaggeration on purpose.




yes they are, as illegal aliens but that's not desirable for anybody






but it's true, I would either register and pay the fee to comply or risk punishment. And I would contact my elected representatives about the issue and/or vote in different representatives who better represent my opinions.

And you’ve still not answered it, OK let’s try this another way. What makes them so undesirable to the people of the destination country?
 
They are recognised as human beings.

and they also walk on two feet and have opposable thumbs, must be human beings


What makes them so undesirable to the people of the destination country?

Are we still talking about undocumented immigrants? They can't engage in any activity that requires documentation, that makes them of no use outside of illegal activities, is this condition desirable to you?
 
and they also walk on two feet and have opposable thumbs, must be human beings




Are we still talking about undocumented immigrants? They can't engage in any activity that requires documentation, that makes them of no use outside of illegal activities, is this condition desirable to you?
I mean, besides working on construction crews, in fields and on farms, cleaning houses, bus tables, cook food and a whole lot of other not illegal jobs that undocumented workers actually do? I man, look, I get the gist of what your after. Just not savvy on your view of the situation. You are looking at it to black and white. Personally however, I think you know this and are simply enjoying the attention your garnering and the irriation your dispatching.
 
Illegal immigrants. Ask yourself, (for everyone, not just you eran) would you knowingly break the law by smuggling yourself into another country? I know I wouldn't.

Oh God, they're Illegal!?


I guess we just have to round them up in camps and shoot them then.

No, it's not real, its Fox News and OANN ******** being regurgitated as if it were fact.
Amusingly, even one of Fox's anchors put his foot down over some of it last night.
 
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Illegal immigrants. Ask yourself, (for everyone, not just you eran) would you knowingly break the law by smuggling yourself into another country? I know I wouldn't.

You have no reason to consider it. I guess it might be different if you had close friends or family members - a father, a son or daughter - who had been killed, raped or tortured, or if you lived in such crushing poverty that risking your life making a desperately arduous & dangerous trip seemed like a better option to you.

Americans aren't inherently bad or un-generous people, but th dehumanization of "the other" is probably the oldest & most used prejudice in human history.
 
I always find it weird that nobody who uses the argument that illegal immigrants are criminals because they broke immigration law, and that means illegal immigration brings more criminals in to commit more crime sees how circular it is.

Laws should (though often don't) have some basis in morality and protect people from having their rights harmed. How does making someone a criminal for being one side of an invisible line (usually through being there after their permission to be there has expired due to time) protect anyone's rights?

Could we perhaps have the conversation about what compels them to do it and whether US immigration laws are appropriate instead of "they criminals"? It'd be slightly more intelligent.
 
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