America - The Official Thread

[Joey D]

Nope. The Feds have standards that were unmet, for good reason pulled the license citing a particular issue.
Failure to meet standards happened.
That doesn’t mean Richard should say “SEE? it never works the whole concepts flawed! Nothing is s better alternative than regs eliminate the concept!”
I would argue the concept was not flawed.
Clearly it worked, the Feds revoked the license after a long history of deficient maintenance in 2018.
What we see is a failure of standards being kept leading to s tragedy that was avoidable. Sad.

Ok, the licensing was pulled. However, the dam still operated, still wasn't fixed, nor did the state or federal government do anything more to enforce the regulations. So what exactly is the point of regulation if they aren't going to be followed or enforced to have a better and/or safer environment?

You know who would be most interested in eliminating OSHA?
People up the chain from the blue collar worker, people who KNOW they will never have to do it. More money in their pocket if they get done fast and under budget.
Richard likes to think that everyone acting in their own self interest unchecked will always lead to a good outcome for all.
That’s laughable.

You know if you get hurt on the job you're still able to sue your employer right? Most companies aren't going to put their human resources in jeopardy because they will almost certainly get sued and they'll either lose in court or settle out of court.

You make it sound like everyone is inherently evil and the only thing keeping them in check is the government.

 

[Groundfish]

it's time to find a new employer because no job is worth a hospital visit

No employee should have to work at safety standards below the minimum threshold OSHA sets.
In practice, as a person who has been employed in an industrial setting as a worker before, and being of average intelligence yes much of this is what you call common sense, and no doubt as someone whose also been in that environment you get that.
However there must be standards and laws when it comes to industry. Some hazards are not immediately apparent or even visible like poisonous gases.
Prior to regulations you had child labor for gods sake. That’s not right.
In 1968 just as many humans lost their lives at work as were killed in Vietnam.*
*ref OSHA

Ok, the licensing was pulled. However, the dam still operated, still wasn't fixed, nor did the state or federal government do anything

Seems likely it’s shared blame, like in the article I posted, but lawyers are involved now. I don’t know the specifics but it might be a failure of state/local govt letting that boyco firm or whatever ignore them.
That’s not systemic. That’s don’t elect people who would allow this. Maybe they were working on racism instead jk jk jk

You make it sound like everyone is inherently evil and the only thing keeping them in check is the government.

No corporations are primarily profit driven though. History proves usually the worker gets shafted. I’m no communist and it doesn’t mean people are evil, just profit driven.
Most corporations, not all, haven’t read Kant.

 

[Danoff]

No employee should have to work at safety standards below the minimum threshold OSHA sets.

Exactly what minimum threshold are you talking about? If you do a quick search, you'll find people complaining about being cited for things like a table that might be used as a ladder (but wasn't) and so employees need to be secured to stand on it (which they don't), and endless ranting about the lack of clarity in standards an constantly changing standards. So you'll have to be more specific.

When it comes to things like construction codes (not OSHA I know), I've found construction employees, even very knowledgeable ones, are pretty particular about how they handle inspections. Inspectors can cause problems, or not cause problems. They can find important stuff, or not find it, and they can apply rules very incorrectly. I hired a separate inspector during construction of my house, who performed inspection at the same time as the city inspector. He always found more than they did, and actually important stuff.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

When it comes to things like construction codes (not OSHA I know), I've found construction employees, even very knowledgeable ones, are pretty particular about how they handle inspections. Inspectors can cause problems, or not cause problems. They can find important stuff, or not find it, and they can apply rules very incorrectly. I hired a separate inspector during construction of my house, who performed inspection at the same time as the city inspector. He always found more than they did, and actually important stuff.

I'm sure the city inspectors have aspirations to do the job well.

Just be glad you don't have to deal with the California Division of the State Architect 🤬🤬

 

[05XR8]

https://www.theroot.com/a-judge-ask...tm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_source=facebook

 

[Groundfish]

So there’s a bunch of you tube out there from official sources. Bottom line is I disagree with Richard the Libertarian that 14,000 worker deaths and a tremendous number (1.5 million) of workers disabled per year is acceptable.
I disagree with Richard that regulations preserving workers rights and safety while at work are bad.

There’s plenty of official OSHA videos, bottom line OSHA reduced workplace fatalities 65%.
How can you logically support worker death? How can you support worker rights under the law being ignored? How can you support millions getting disabled?
It makes no sense to me.
Further, a precursor to OSHA, forget the name pointed out that in the 1910-20’s the earliest worker safety videos BLAMED WORKERS, they were made by corporations, again whose goal is profit.
We are off in the weeds here, but I’m glad OSHA was mentioned, because it’s a perfect example of the govt being required in capitalism to regulate safety, because left unchecked corporations were killing and maiming people who were just doing their job.
This is why to me Richard the Libertarian has perhaps the most regressive ideologies of all with his suggestions we return more to a working world as it was a century ago when in the textile industry alone 14-15000 workers a year were killed. Steel about the same the numbers PER YEAR PER INDUSTRY equaled the whole of USA in 1968 in 1910-20.
Richards ideology has ALREADY BEEN TRIED-the results were so inhumane that it was scrapped in favor of REGULATIONS.

 

[Joey D]

Bottom I disagree with Richard the Libertarian that 14,000 worker deaths and a tremendous number (1.5 million) of workers disabled per year is acceptable.

Libertarians don't think deaths are acceptable.

How can you logically support worker death? How can you support worker rights under the law being ignored? How can you support millions getting disabled?

Libertarians don't support any of this.

 

[Groundfish]

Libertarians don't think deaths are acceptable.



Libertarians don't support any of this.

Perhaps Richard the Libertarian might posit that in his world it would be wrong for an individual to impose on another individuals rights.
Perhaps Richard relies on a morality here, and further IF said rights are violated AS HISTORY SHOWS happens almost all the time, then the employee is blessed with a tremendous right to sue the company in civil court.
Is that about correct? Richards idea would be to hope companies act morally, and in the case they do not, turn to GOVT COURTS to correct the wrong?

 

[Joey D]

Perhaps Richard the Libertarian might posit that in his world it would be wrong for an individual to impose on another individuals rights.

It's wrong in any world to impose on another individual's rights.

Perhaps Richard relies on a morality here, and further IF said rights are violated AS HISTORY SHOWS happens almost all the time, then the employee is blessed with a tremendous right to sue the company in civil court.

Assuming you're still talking about company-employee relationship here, that's exactly what happens now. If I'm injured at work then I take my employer to court. It's rare that a company would ever face criminal prosecution if someone is injured or killed on the job.

If you're talking about what happens in general, that's not the case. When rights are violated a whole myriad of things can and do happen.

 

[Famine]

Richard the Libertarian

It's so very rare that you see someone construct a literal strawman.

GOVT COURTS

Courts are not really part of government in the sense of the body that creates and enacts law, rather the Judicial branch that interprets and applies law. Indeed courts also function to hold government - the Legislative and Executive branches - to account, and, like the police, should be independent of government.

 

[Groundfish]

It's so very rare that you see someone construct a literal strawman.

It’s a hypothetical example.
I feel like it always turns to ad hominem when the communication is “my idea” “your idea”
Jmo but it seems like communication devolves and becomes combative when it’s me vs you opposed to an objective discussion of a hypothetical situation.
I just don’t wanna get personal or call names, because discussion and communication are good imo.
Name calling etc is pointless and destructive.

 

[Famine]

It’s a hypothetical example.
I feel like it always turns to ad hominem when the communication is “my idea” “your idea”
Jmo but it seems like communication devolves and becomes combative when it’s me vs you opposed to an objective discussion of a hypothetical situation.
I just don’t wanna get personal or call names, because discussion and communication are good imo.
Name calling etc is pointless and destructive.

Quite, but you've constructed an individual you're calling "Richard the Libertarian" and are attacking his ideas, which you say are libertarian ideas - but are nothing of the sort, as @Joey D keeps rather patiently trying to explain to you.

 

[UKMikey]

Quite, but you've constructed an individual you're calling "Richard the Libertarian" and are attacking his ideas, which you say are libertarian ideas - but are nothing of the sort, as @Joey D keeps rather patiently trying to explain to you.

He could get a puppet made like Achmed The Dead Terrorist, except instead of saying "I kill you!" his catchphrase could be "I sue you". Funny as I thought Kantian ethics were against reducing people to mere cyphers.

 

[Groundfish]

, OSHA is more or less a joke

@Famine I quoted this because this was said in concert with an assertion also that
govt regs don’t work.
History shows the existence of OSHA cut worker deaths per year by 65% in the USA.
That’s over 7,000 lives saved per year, OSHA also tremendously reduced workers put on disability every year (100’s of thousands less)
Prior to OSHAs formation the economy operated with less restriction, much as I imagine Richard would theoretically like.
But I am hearing we should scrap OSHA altogether?
Imo that’s a regression of industry to a century old practice that meant many workers being killed and maimed every year.
Under OSHA all it takes for the worker if their rights are being violated is one phone call and tremendous resources are brought to bear.
This is great for a worker who maybe makes very little.
The government is able to uphold that workers rights, even if he lacks personally resources to start a big court battle against a large well funded corporation.
What is Richards position? He still wants to get rid of regulation?

 

[DesertPenguin]

At this point with your "Richard Strawman" you're basically just arguing with yourself. I think it's time we all pack up and go/change topics. This is clearly a waste of everybody's time.

 

[Dotini]

@Famine I quoted this because this was said in concert with an assertion also that
govt regs don’t work.
History shows the existence of OSHA cut worker deaths per year by 65% in the USA.
That’s over 7,000 lives saved per year, OSHA also tremendously reduced workers put on disability every year (100’s of thousands less)
Prior to OSHAs formation the economy operated with less restriction, much as I imagine Richard would theoretically like.
But I am hearing we should scrap OSHA altogether?
Imo that’s a regression of industry to a century old practice that meant many workers being killed and maimed every year.
Under OSHA all it takes for the worker if their rights are being violated is one phone call and tremendous resources are brought to bear.
This is great for a worker who maybe makes very little.
The government is able to uphold that workers rights, even if he lacks personally resources to start a big court battle against a large well funded corporation.
What is Richards position? He still wants to get rid of regulation?

During his career as an independent developer and construction contractor, my cousin Karl hated OSHA, and still does today. During my career at Boeing, which spanned periods in between 1968 and my retirement a few years ago, OSHA was a major factor in all factory site additions and revisions, as well as daily operations on the factory floor.

Today, for me, Osha is just my cat, named after a wildling girl in Game of Thrones.

 

[Sander 001]

Michael Caputo's life is in danger and the best way to protect himself is by going on record and detailing everything he knows and everything he's done. He should recieved whistleblower protections.

 

[McLaren]

200,000+ people have passed, and if we write off the 100,000+ from blue states, we're actually doing even better than everyone else.... Imagine applying this thinking to any other event in history with record death tolls.

 

[Rallywagon]

Are Texas and Florida blue states?

 

[mustafur]

Are Texas and Florida blue states?

Florida is historically the biggest swing state of the election, Texas is the state republicans depend on the most, if that goes blue there is basically zero hope of winning an election.

 

[Joey D]

Imagine being so crass that you don't see any problem with writing off 100,000 deaths because they voted for the other guy. What an actual 🤬.

 

[Blitz24]

Imagine being so crass that you don't see any problem with writing off 100,000 deaths because they voted for the other guy. What an actual 🤬.

Ah, but according to HIS numbers, it's only 94,000...

 

[TheCracker]

Imagine being so crass that you don't see any problem with writing off 100,000 deaths because they voted for the other guy. What an actual 🤬.

I'm reading between the lines that he's trying to imply that those blue states didn't deal with Covid well enough compared to the republican ones, rather than him not caring about those lives. But still, poorly chosen wording. Even for him.

 

[polysmut]

Imagine being so crass that you don't see any problem with writing off 100,000 deaths because they voted for the other guy. What an actual 🤬.

Perhaps he meant to imply that anything which happens in a State with a Democrat Governer isn't the responsibility of his White House as that State will be working with policies that differ from his own.

Well that's a treeing.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

He shouldn't take any credit, if he doesn't take any responsibility.

damn reptiles

 

[Joey D]

I'm reading between the lines that he's trying to imply that those blue states didn't deal with Covid well enough compared to the republican ones, rather than him not caring about those lives. But still, poorly chosen wording. Even for him.

Perhaps he meant to imply that anything which happens in a State with a Democrat Governer isn't the responsibility of his White House as that State will be working with policies that differ from his own.

Well that's a treeing.

I agree that's what he probably means, but this is still Trump. I can totally see him just writing off 50% of the deaths because they're not in his cult...errr fan club.

Also, as @Rallywagon points out, Texas and Florida are both red states in terms of governors and they are two of the worst-hit states in the country.

 

[McLaren]

Florida is historically the biggest swing state of the election, Texas is the state republicans depend on the most, if that goes blue there is basically zero hope of winning an election.

Last I looked, Texas is a lot closer to becoming a toss-up than the GOP would like since it's normally a pretty safe bet it'll go red. It probably still will imo, but I think the big cities & the border communities are making a push towards turning the state purple with expressing how poorly the Republican gov. has been handling the outbreak.

 

[TheCracker]

Also, as @Rallywagon points out, Texas and Florida are both red states in terms of governors and they are two of the worst-hit states in the country.

Are they the worse in head count figures or as a percentage of population? - i know they're both quite populous states.

 

[Blitz24]

I agree that's what he probably means, but this is still Trump. I can totally see him just writing off 50% of the deaths because they're not in his cult...errr fan club.

Also, as @Rallywagon points out, Texas and Florida are both red states in terms of governors and they are two of the worst-hit states in the country.

In his eyes, they don't count because the states he really hates are New York (1st), New Jersey (2nd) and California (4th). Ignoring the fact that Texas and Florida are 3rd and 5th respectively, New York has more deaths than ANY other two states combined.

 

[McLaren]

In his eyes, they don't count because the states he really hates are New York (1st), New Jersey (2nd) and California (4th). Ignoring the fact that Texas and Florida are 3rd and 5th respectively, New York has more deaths than ANY other two states combined.

I doubt he even takes it into consideration that those states took a full brunt of the outbreak first, but it's not like the red states aren't looking to make up ground.

According to Worldometers' yesterday totals, 3 of the top 5 contributors to case count were red states (Tx-1/4,413, Fl.-3/2,355, GA-4/2,223). If you jump into the death count, Florida, Arkansas, & Texas were the top 3 by a considerable margin; 156, 147, 144. CA is 4th with 106 & Ohio is 5th with 50.