America - The Official Thread

[jjaisli]

I believe the biggest issue with his taxes and how much he's been paying - or not as the case appears to be, is more the moral issue.

A moral issue? I don't know. Trump has done and said so many morally questionable things during this four years in office that I doubt THIS would actually turn out to be "the back breaking straw" for many people. He took advantage of the system. For me, he blew it already during his inauguration speech. But what finally tore it for me was reading the full (redacted) Muller Report. Maybe Trump didn't actually "pull the trigger" just like Hillary herself probably didn't hit the delete key. But I don't see how anybody (save Bill Barr) could read the report and think it exonerated Trump. People still in his corner at this point could probably forgive him of just about anything.

However, further to my post above, questioning who Trump owes and what his sources of income are, what @McLaren cited below is something I find fascinating.

• The audit he is currently under is related to the above. To claim the refund from 2005-2007 he used him abadoning his stake in his Atlantic casinos to count as his loss. However in the tax code you can only do this if you receive nothing else from the business or bankruptcy, but he received a 5% stake in the restructured company after the bankruptcy, meaning all those refunds+interest would come due (~100 million dollars).

That, if true, would explain why the NY attorney general is after him like a dog on a bone. And it explains why he's so desperate to stay in office. Once he's again a private citizen, if the above proven true, he could be in dangerous crosshairs and likely facing prison time, if not outright bankruptcy.

 

[UKMikey]

Here's a list from a member of a neutral subreddit sharing that these issues should still concern people of both parties.

The rest of the thread was quite interesting as well, although you pretty much filleted out the meat:

Spoiler: Language warning

Maybe Trump didn't actually "pull the trigger" just like Hillary herself probably didn't hit the delete key. But I don't see how anybody (save Bill Barr) could read the report and think it exonerated Trump. People still in his corner at this point could probably forgive him of just about anything.

Talking of pulling the trigger I hope he doesn't decide to shoot someone in the street as a distraction. Maybe a protester so he can have plausible deniability.

[EDIT] Apologies to the mod who added a spoiler to the reddit thread above. I made a mistake as I didn't notice the automatic embed displayed a swear word, rather than it being a deliberate attempt to circumvent the swear filter as suggested in the comment. It's not like I've ever tried to do that in previous posts.

 

[Jezza819]

I believe the biggest issue with his taxes and how much he's been paying - or not as the case appears to be, is more the moral issue.

He will just come out and say something like "paying taxes is for losers" or some other nonsense.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Of course the Trump base won't care about this. They are in a truly alternate reality.

If there are any undecided voters left, though, this seems like a pretty damn big deal. Also, I think this pretty much breaks the delusion, for anyone with a brain, that Trump is a successful business man. The guy probably has negative net wealth at this point, or close to it. His life has been a series of binge borrow & bust cycles that would make a youtube influencer blush. Try as he might, Trump has never been and never will be part of the high society he craves the approval of so much. He's a classless, godless queens conman, and real conservatives should see that by now if they aren't total morons.

 

[UKMikey]

One thing's for sure. This latest scandal has totally overshadowed the SCOTUS issue.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

This one's coming back:

 

[NotThePrez]

^I'm not super familiar with tax law, but I'd say that owing the government 1/5th of your yearly income is not at all insignificant.

 

[Imari]

One thing's for sure. This latest scandal has totally overshadowed the SCOTUS issue.

To be fair, that one is pretty much over and done with. In it's current state, the Republican party won't be derailed by such simple things as "what is good for the country" or "what the people want" if they've got a shot at grabbing more power. They'll do what they want, and then it will be a matter of seeing what happens during and after the election.

I think it's pretty clear at this stage that a lot more stuff needs to be codified as explicit rules for government rather than relying on politicians following historical precedents or moral values. While you would hope that the good of the country and the people would be first and foremost for any politician, obviously that can't be relied on. Some view their religion as superceding all, some view political power as it's own thing to be sought, and some are just in it for personal gain.

While the idea of checks and balances is a good one, I think in 2020 politicians have learned how to out-wit the founders that put those ideas in place. That's not a surprise, government should be evolving to meet current needs rather than stagnating on a formula that is hundreds of years old. Price of freedom, eternal vigilance, yadda yadda.

 

[UKMikey]

To be fair, that one is pretty much over and done with. In it's current state, the Republican party won't be derailed by such simple things as "what is good for the country" or "what the people want" if they've got a shot at grabbing more power. They'll do what they want, and then it will be a matter of seeing what happens during and after the election.

You're right that Repubs gonna Repub and, to also be fair, I believe the late Judge Ginsburg had the opportunity to retire after 21 years in office when the Dems had a Senate majority and was advised to do so, so they could elect a successor in the same mould. But I guess hindsight is 20/20.

I wonder how well their scheme to limit SCOTUS judges to18 year terms will do. I guess there's an element of kick the can in it and I'm not sure they would've pushed for it had there been a Dem majority on the court, but on the surface it at least looks to me like it'd benefit both sides in the long run by tempering single party hegemony.

While the Senate continues to have a rural skew, though, the GOP sounds more likely to have a greater grip on the Supreme Court for the foreseeable future.

While the idea of checks and balances is a good one, I think in 2020 politicians have learned how to out-wit the founders that put those ideas in place.

Yeah, roll on the NPV Interstate Compact.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

^I'm not super familiar with tax law, but I'd say that owing the government 1/5th of your yearly income is not at all insignificant.

Yeah, it's part of the there's always a tweet theme, where Trump shows his hipocrisy for things he blasted Obama about.

Going back to the tax news itself it won't have any impact on Trump supporters (always Trumpers). It might affect a few swing voters.

 

[GranTurNismo]

It might affect a few swing voters.

If there are even any swing voters left. I'd figure that nearly all voters made up their minds quite a while ago.

I'm curious about what users like Groundfish and Chrunch Houston have to say about this debacle. At a first glance, such massive tax avoidance and overt corruption seems inexcusable, but if I've learned something the past few years, it's that anything Trump can do will be justified by some.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

If there are even any swing voters left. I'd figure that nearly all voters made up their minds quite a while ago.

I'm curious about what users like Groundfish and Chrunch Houston have to say about this debacle. At a first glance, such massive tax avoidance and overt corruption seems inexcusable, but if I've learned something the past few years, it's that anything Trump can do will be justified by some.

Breaking Bombshell Earth Shattering News!!!: Trump paid $750 more in federal taxes than $6 trillion mega giant Amazon.

Give me a break, this is such a non-story, it's laughable watching the talking heads tripping over each other trying to foment outrage.

What debacle? People dedicate their whole careers to helping people and business avoid paying taxes. It is a whole industry.

Notice the Times even used the term 'tax avoidance'. Why didn't they use the term 'tax evasion'? Because tax evasion is a crime, and there is no crime here.

 

[Danoff]

Breaking Bombshell Earth Shattering News!!!: Trump paid $750 more in federal taxes than $6 trillion mega giant Amazon.

Give me a break, this is such a non-story, it's laughable watching the talking heads tripping over each other trying to foment outrage.

What debacle? People dedicate their whole careers to helping people and business avoid paying taxes. It is a whole industry.

Notice the Times even used the term 'tax avoidance'. Why didn't they use the term 'tax evasion'? Because tax evasion is a crime, and there is no crime here.

Amazon is a company. This is Trump's personal tax filing. To make that parallel you'd have to look at Bezos's personal tax filing, which is not public. But is estimated at well above zero. Also Amazon paid millions last year in taxes.

That you miss the obvious class warfare subtext to this story makes it clear that you're not paying attention.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Amazon is a company. This is Trump's personal tax filing. To make that parallel you'd have to look at Bezos's personal tax filing, which is not public. But is estimated at well above zero. Also Amazon paid millions last year in taxes.

That you miss the obvious class warfare subtext to this story makes it clear that you're not paying attention.

Bezos owns shares in a publicly held company. Trump owns his companies. His taxes would be very different from Bezos's.

If Amazon is reinvesting its money in expanding, and it turns no profit, it pays no taxes. The same thing goes with Trump, if his companies' net losses, exceed their net profits, then there is no tax owed.

That you buy into the class warfare narrative being pushed by the media makes it clear that you are not paying attention.

 

[UKMikey]

I had no idea Jeff Bezos was running for US President.

 

[Sander 001]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ter-interview-2014-james-dodson-a7722806.html

 

[McLaren]

I had no idea Jeff Bezos was running for US President.

What, you don’t find it funny to attack Amazon for not paying taxes, and then say them and Trump are just doing the same thing?

 

[Tornado]

It's strange. It's such a massive non-story and complete fabricated outrage because everyone tries as hard as they can to get around paying any taxes... and yet Trump himself didn't say anything of the sort when the news broke. Instead he immediately denied that anything in the story was true and that the NYT fabricated the whole thing; almost as if he realized that paying virtually no income tax for years after bragging about how successful and wealthy you are is something that would be politically damaging. Nevermind the fit he threw on Twitter years ago when he found out Obama only paid a 20% tax rate.



I guess this is just another example of us not being part of Trump's inner circle like some members are.

At a first glance, such massive tax avoidance and overt corruption seems inexcusable, but if I've learned something the past few years, it's that anything Trump can do will be justified by some.

Trump is too smart to be corrupt and therefore he's not.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

Anyone ever heard of a CPA?

 

[McLaren]

Anyone ever heard of a CPA?

Per Trump-supporter stance, focus on the headline, ignore the details of what's reported.

How does Trump plan to pay the $300 million+ he owes by 2024, when it's reported most of his businesses in the last 15 years are losing money & he had to take on more debt to keep them afloat after selling off his liquid assets to buy the loans for them in the first place?

 

[UKMikey]

What, you don’t find it funny to attack Amazon for not paying taxes, and then say them and Trump are just doing the same thing?

It's funnier when they attack illegal immigrants for not paying taxes and then Trump ends up paying less into the economy than them as well.

If lies and hypocrisy were bricks and mortar he and his supporters would've had their exclusion wall built years ago. I hope those Russian loan sharks don't demand payment in body parts.

 

[Danoff]

Bezos owns shares in a publicly held company. Trump owns his companies.

He actually did have a publicly traded company for a long time, it did quite poorly.

His taxes would be very different from Bezos's.

That's true. But also Amazon. Bezos's taxes would be a more appropriate comparison as Trump is not a corporation. Bezos, btw, does own other companies besides amazon, and at least one is not publicly traded.

If Amazon is reinvesting its money in expanding, and it turns no profit, it pays no taxes. The same thing goes with Trump, if his companies' net losses, exceed their net profits, then there is no tax owed.

I understand how taxes work.

That you buy into the class warfare narrative being pushed by the media makes it clear that you are not paying attention.

I don't have to buy into it to recognize it.

 

[Jezza819]

Per Trump-supporter stance, focus on the headline, ignore the details of what's reported.

How does Trump plan to pay the $300 million+ he owes by 2024, when it's reported most of his businesses in the last 15 years are losing money & he had to take on more debt to keep them afloat after selling off his liquid assets to buy the loans for them in the first place?

The price of those red hats just went WAY up.

 

[mustafur]

It doesn't get better:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...35m-black-americans-to-deter-them-from-voting

Combine that with the Republican strategy of taking away most of all the polling places in black areas, got to love the EC.

 

[Chrunch Houston]

It doesn't get better:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...35m-black-americans-to-deter-them-from-voting

That story is at least three years old. It's called targeted marketing.

The libs are digging deep into their poo bucket, looking for anything to stick.

 

[mustafur]

That story is at least three years old. It's called targeted marketing.

The libs are digging deep into their poo bucket, looking for anything to stick.

Can you show me when the story was first shown 3 years ago?, and Cambridge Analytica is a data company hardly Lib?

I mean it's easy to just push it into the "lib" catagory without actually addressing it.

 

[Imari]

Breaking Bombshell Earth Shattering News!!!: Trump paid $750 more in federal taxes than $6 trillion mega giant Amazon.

Give me a break, this is such a non-story, it's laughable watching the talking heads tripping over each other trying to foment outrage.

What debacle? People dedicate their whole careers to helping people and business avoid paying taxes. It is a whole industry.

The tax thing is a red herring. Sure, it's pretty hypocritical of him but it's hardly surprising or unusual for rich people to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid paying their share of taxes.

The more concerning thing is his debt. If you ever have to apply for a security clearance, they pay significant attention to your finances because it's a very easy way for an adversary to apply pressure. While debt is always going to be higher for someone as wealthy as Trump, to be nine figures deep in personal debt as the leader of the country is concerning.

Who owns that debt? How much leverage does it give them over him? It's not necessarily a show stopper, but it is information that should be publically available so that citizens can be confident that their President isn't being manipulated to disadvantage them. I think if Trump was just open and transparent with his personal finances then it deflates any argument against him, and is a reasonable expectation for someone who wields as much power as he does.

IMO, public disclosure of personal finances should be mandatory for high office, and not just a tradition that can be avoided if someone so chooses. This seems non-partisan; neither Republicans or Democrats want a President who is in significant debt to another country.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Breaking Bombshell Earth Shattering News!!!: Trump paid $750 more in federal taxes than $6 trillion mega giant Amazon.

Amazon paid $162 million, although my source is Fox News, make of that what you will.

To be quite honest we've been around the avoidance/evasion roundabout many times before (as a forum, not you specifically @Chrunch Houston). Avoidance is the way it's played. There will always be offsets for loss, charitable work etc. etc. and those offsets will always be of the greatest benefit to those with the greatest turnover (not quite that simple but close enough). For very large benefits whole armies of corporate accountants will be deployed to handle the declarations.

I think the big story here is Trump's debt and liability, but it's a story we're not going to hear until after troops take back the White House in February 2021.

EDIT: I should have read @Imari's comment more thoroughly and then just not posted... he's put it much better than I did!

 

[Liquid]

If you ever have to apply for a security clearance, they pay significant attention to your finances because it's a very easy way for an adversary to apply pressure.

Nailed it.

 

[Danoff]

The tax thing is a red herring. Sure, it's pretty hypocritical of him but it's hardly surprising or unusual for rich people to go to extraordinary lengths to avoid paying their share of taxes.

I'm not sure I would go so far as to call it a red herring. It's overblown a bit, but it is interesting how blatantly hypocritical he has been. I mean to attack Obama for not paying enough taxes when he pays less? These are deep character flaws.

But also, and I'm not one to subscribe to class warfare, this is exactly the thing that so many people have been complaining about. To reveal that Trump has been hiding that he hasn't paid taxes while living a life of luxury is just exactly what folks on the left have been yelling about for year and years. And it turns out he was covering up that he was doing exactly what they were accusing him (and others like him) of doing. It's not the "look" you wanted if you were the GOP. You'd much rather that it turned out he was paying way more than his share (which was what we were all led to believe).

It's just a complete lack of transparency and moral fiber, and plays directly into the narrative of his opponents.

But what more could it be (I'm thinking of taxes here, not debt)? Criminal? I suppose tax fraud would have been a possibility, but I'd assume that he (like all people in his shoes) would have tax attorneys making sure that he at least could make a decent case. I guess it wouldn't have been too surprising to find criminal behavior, but the fact that none has been uncovered doesn't get him "off the hook" when it comes to his record of not paying taxes. It's not so much that he didn't pay taxes, it's how he went about not paying taxes.

The more concerning thing is his debt.

Totally.


Edit: I should add, that it's more concerning because we already knew he was a scumbag.