America - The Official Thread

[Danoff]

but it seems like there's some overlap there where traditional conservatives might prefer a Libertarian candidate to a Democratic one. At least if they were willing to look at policy rather than get caught up on the names of things.

I don't know what a traditional conservative is anymore. When the religious right started taking over the Republican party, I thought the party would shove them out in favor of its more traditionally conservative views on limited government. Instead the religious movement within the republicans was embraced, and I think that movement is authoritarian.

Nobody who holds to any semblance of libertarianism should be voting for Trump. In this election, you're going to be able to count up the number of authoritarians really easily, because it'll be a nearly 1:1 ratio with voters for trump. I think we're expected to see more than 150 million votes in 2020, with an anticipated 45% going for trump.

I other words we have nearly 67 million authoritarians in the US. I don't doubt that a libertarian candidate running as a republican could capture many of those votes if there were no alternative. I mean, McCain was not an authoritarian and he probably got a lot of those votes. But this group is going to continue to prefer authoritarians over libertarians, and I think overall it represents a much larger group than libertarians.

Socialists are a tougher group to estimate. Bernie and Warren got a combined 11 million in the primaries. You have to think some of Biden's 20 million also included socialists as well. Just out of total guesswork, I'd say that the number of socialists in the US outnumbers the number of libertarian-minded voters by a substantial number. And authoritarians for sure.

 

[ryzno]

If he's elected I think we can only hope he lives up to that.

My grandpa use to say, "wish in one hand and poop in the other, see which one fills up first."

 

[polysmut]

It's not a good sign for the Libertarian party if @Danoff isn't even voting for them.
I understand the reason you've given, that one issue trumps everything for you at the moment but the party you normally agree with does agree with you on that single important issue. More so than the party you've said you voted for (or are going to) this time.

 

[Danoff]

My grandpa use to say, "wish in one hand and poop in the other, see which one fills up first."

The alternative is worse. Best case scenario, we can only hope he lives up to that. Worst case scenario, we get someone who will actively destroy the country.

 

[TexRex]

...one issue trumps everything for you...

Nice.

Worst case scenario, we get someone else who will actively destroy the country.

Fixed.

 

[Danoff]

Fixed.

That is actually what I meant. Worst case scenario we get Trump.

 

[TexRex]

That is actually what I meant. Worst case scenario we get Trump.

Thing is...Biden's too much like Trump for my liking. I get that he seems different in some really important ways, and he may well be if appearance bears out, but despite his decades of holding office, he's still a bit of an unknown quantity in this capacity. Not quite the unknown quantity that Trump was in 2016, what with the complete lack of government experience that gave him the innocence of a baby to complement his temperament.

I think the thing I find most appealing about the prospect of a Biden presidency is the lack of excitement, and that's more than a little sad.

 

[Danoff]

Thing is...Biden's too much like Trump for my liking. I get that he seems different in some really important ways, and he may well be if appearance bears out, but despite his decades of holding office, he's still a bit of an unknown quantity in this capacity. Not quite the unknown quantity that Trump was in 2016, what with the complete lack of government experience that gave him the innocence of a baby to complement his temperament.

I think the thing I find most appealing about the prospect of a Biden presidency is the lack of excitement, and that's more than a little sad.

Biden has a long record in politics, I think we have a decent idea of what we're getting if we get him. I agree that he's not my favorite politician. I actually remember going on an angry rant when Obama picked him to be his running mate.

I'd like to understand better what you mean about Biden being "too much like Trump", because while i see some similarities, I also seem them very differently. I would not call Biden an authoritarian, and I don't expect him to be pushing the authoritarian agenda.

I really like that he's been around in politics for a long time, and was VP. Not because I think it makes him more qualified or anything, but because he has a good understanding of how the US used to work (waaaay back in 2015), and I hope he tries to restore some of that.

 

[TexRex]

Biden has a long record in politics, I think we have a decent idea of what we're getting if we get him. I agree that he's not my favorite politician. I actually remember going on an angry rant when Obama picked him to be his running mate.

...

I really like that he's been around in politics for a long time, and was VP. Not because I think it makes him more qualified or anything, but because he has a good understanding of how the US used to work (waaaay back in 2015), and I hope he tries to restore some of that.

I get that, and I can respect it.

I'd like to understand better what you mean about Biden being "too much like Trump", because while i see some similarities, I also seem them very differently. I would not call Biden an authoritarian, and I don't expect him to be pushing the authoritarian agenda.

Old guys who have demonstrated a propensity to say stupid things and who are very likely guilty of sexual assault.

I don't expect him to be authoritarian. I don't expect Kamala to be authoritarian either, in the event that he gets killed off so that she can take power as the right likes to push. But he makes the vote against authoritarianism, as good as that should feel, feel icky.

 

[Blitz24]

I get that, and I can respect it.


Old guys who have demonstrated a propensity to say stupid things and who are very likely guilty of sexual assault.

I don't expect him to be authoritarian. I don't expect Kamala to be authoritarian either, in the event that he gets killed off so that she can take power as the right likes to push. But he makes the vote against authoritarianism, as good as that should feel, feel icky.

One of the issues I have with Biden is his lack of a plan and it feels like he might be easily swayed into moving fully progressive.

 

[huskeR32]

Really, Libertarians need to make a stronger push at the local and state level.

We've recently had two Libertarians in the Nebraska state legislature, though one was pretty nominal. I say "nominal" for two reasons; one, our legislature is officially a nonpartisan body, and two, he didn't really act like a Libertarian.

He introduced a bill that would have added several new regulations on craft brewers in the state, making it much harder for them to survive. Many of them likely would have been put out of business. Pro-regulation, anti-small business - seems about as non-Libertarian as you could get. Of course, it turned out that his largest campaign donor was Anheuser-Busch.

I'd imagine that's pretty frustrating for true libertarians to see. It's hard enough to get traction as a third party, so when you do get someone in office, it's got to be tough to see them sell out so easily.

 

[Danoff]

Old guys who have demonstrated a propensity to say stupid things and who are very likely guilty of sexual assault.

Oh that. Well we need people to prosecute that so that we can get a good understanding of the evidence.

I think we have to get used to it. Regardless of whether there's any truth (and for the record, I think Trump's own words are pretty awful on that one), we're going to hear accusations of sexual assault for every male candidate for president going forward... at least accusations. Teasing out whether we believe any of these in the absence of a conviction (or even prosecution) is going to be a personal choice. But it's fraught with echo chamber validation, so it's a perilous journey.

I basically require documented concrete evidence and/or a conviction to come to a conclusion on that.

 

[TexRex]

One of the issues I have with Biden is his lack of a plan and it feels like he might be easily swayed into moving fully progressive.

That's not something I'd expect of Biden. I expect he's set in his ways enough that that substantial shift doesn't seem likely. Maybe...maybe...on a single case basis, but not fully.

Oh that. Well we need people to prosecute that so that we can get a good understanding of the evidence.

I think we have to get used to it. Regardless of whether there's any truth (and for the record, I think Trump's own words are pretty awful on that one), we're going to hear accusations of sexual assault for every male candidate for president going forward... at least accusations. Teasing out whether we believe any of these in the absence of a conviction (or even prosecution) is going to be a personal choice. But it's fraught with echo chamber validation, so it's a perilous journey.

I basically require documented concrete evidence and/or a conviction to come to a conclusion on that.

It's entirely personal, and I absolutely get that no meaningful attempt to investigate the veracity of claims against either has been made. I'd never use it as a basis to convince someone to not vote for Biden either, even if I'd attempt to sway another's vote at all, but it's enough for me to not feel good about voting for Biden.

Sure, it's the nature of politics, but I wouldn't believe it about Bernie and I didn't believe it about Mueller when Jacob Wohl drummed **** up without providing anything even remotely substantive, including a supposed victim. Biden makes it believable about him. I absolutely believed Tara Reade's original allegation, and I think I could have believed her later allegation had it been the original rather than being amended when it was. Then she became questionable enough on the whole that her legal representation who had successfully represented others in similar matters stepped down, and then she last the support of even the virulent pro-Trump, anti-Biden crowd.

 

[Jezza819]

I think the thing I find most appealing about the prospect of a Biden presidency is the lack of excitement, and that's more than a little sad.

I'm just hoping that he will be a competent placeholder and a return to normalcy for the country. We desperately need younger leadership in the Democratic party IMO and hopefully someone will emerge for 2024 that will energize EVERYONE in the party.

 

[Liquid]

I have a reasonably unrelated question:

Exactly when did Rudy Giuliani become mental? As an outsider looking in, my first experience is him being "America's Mayor" during 9/11 and being, popularity-wise, on top of the world. He even received an honourary knighthood from the UK; he is officially Rudy Giuliani KBE.

And then, just in my sphere, he disappeared off the radar completely and returned 15 years later, 5 years ago, as this completely unhinged Smithers in the Trump omnishambles.

Was this always the case but the magnitude of 9/11 shielded his personality and personal beliefs or did something change?

 

[TenEightyOne]

Was this always the case but the magnitude of 9/11 shielded his personality and personal beliefs or did something change?

I'd be interested to know this too. His persona during the aftermath was inspiring, inclusive, thoughtful, fierce, proud, and seemed very American. He was almost the face of New York on worldwide news (iirc).

returned...as this completely unhinged Smithers in the Trump omnishambles.

I couldn't put it better myself so I shan't even try.

 

[jjaisli]

I have a reasonably unrelated question:

Exactly when did Rudy Giuliani become mental? As an outsider looking in, my first experience is him being "America's Mayor" during 9/11 and being, popularity-wise, on top of the world. He even received an honourary knighthood from the UK; he is officially Rudy Giuliani KBE.

And then, just in my sphere, he disappeared off the radar completely and returned 15 years later, 5 years ago, as this completely unhinged Smithers in the Trump omnishambles.

Was this always the case but the magnitude of 9/11 shielded his personality and personal beliefs or did something change?

Take a reasonably sane person. Retire them. Put them in front of Fox News for 15 years and voila!

 

[huskeR32]

I have a reasonably unrelated question:

Exactly when did Rudy Giuliani become mental? As an outsider looking in, my first experience is him being "America's Mayor" during 9/11 and being, popularity-wise, on top of the world. He even received an honourary knighthood from the UK; he is officially Rudy Giuliani KBE.

And then, just in my sphere, he disappeared off the radar completely and returned 15 years later, 5 years ago, as this completely unhinged Smithers in the Trump omnishambles.

Was this always the case but the magnitude of 9/11 shielded his personality and personal beliefs or did something change?

Some friends and I were just talking about this the other day. He had secured a lifetime as a beloved figure, if he had simply stayed gone from public life. We tried to think of anybody else who had had willingly thrown away such venerated status. Hard to come up with any.

 

[Danoff]

Some friends and I were just talking about this the other day. He had secured a lifetime as a beloved figure, if he had simply stayed gone from public life. We tried to think of anybody else who had had willingly thrown away such venerated status. Hard to come up with any.

Brett Favre

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

There seems to be something inherently corrupting about circling in the Trump orbit. It makes me think that Trump has some sort of insurance against anyone close to him. There's evidence he used to leverage the tabloids for this purpose..who knows what tools hes got available to him now.

 

[TB]

I have a reasonably unrelated question:

Exactly when did Rudy Giuliani become mental? As an outsider looking in, my first experience is him being "America's Mayor" during 9/11 and being, popularity-wise, on top of the world. He even received an honourary knighthood from the UK; he is officially Rudy Giuliani KBE.

And then, just in my sphere, he disappeared off the radar completely and returned 15 years later, 5 years ago, as this completely unhinged Smithers in the Trump omnishambles.

Was this always the case but the magnitude of 9/11 shielded his personality and personal beliefs or did something change?

I've recently wondered the same thing. A quick look at the wiki page reveals this little gem:

In February 2007, the International Association of Fire Fighters issued a letter asserting that Giuliani rushed to conclude the recovery effort once gold and silver had been recovered from World Trade Center vaults and thereby prevented the remains of many victims from being recovered: "Mayor Giuliani's actions meant that fire fighters and citizens who perished would either remain buried at Ground Zero forever, with no closure for families, or be removed like garbage and deposited at the Fresh Kills Landfill," it said, adding: "Hundreds remained entombed in Ground Zero when Giuliani gave up on them."[157] Lawyers for the International Association of Fire Fighters seek to interview Giuliani under oath as part of a federal legal action alleging that New York City negligently dumped body parts and other human remains in the Fresh Kills Landfill.

He probably did about as good a job as one could have given the circumstances but apparently he wasn't quite as amazing as we were all giving him credit for back then.

 

[TexRex]

I've recently wondered the same thing. A quick look at the wiki page reveals this little gem:



He probably did about as good a job as one could have given the circumstances but apparently he wasn't quite as amazing as we were all giving him credit for back then.

He denies that ever happened. No, I don't mean the stuff that the International Association of Fire Fighters alleged.

 

[huskeR32]

Brett Favre

Yeah, that's a good one. On the sports front, O.J. Simpson also comes to mind. Feels to me like Rudy once enjoyed status more beloved than any athlete could really attain, though. Or maybe not more, but fundamentally different? I guess I'm circling around some notion that there's a unique sort of national veneration born from extraordinary times, like 9/11.

 

[Jezza819]

Brett Favre

Yeah, that's a good one. On the sports front, O.J. Simpson also comes to mind. Feels to me like Rudy once enjoyed status more beloved than any athlete could really attain, though. Or maybe not more, but fundamentally different? I guess I'm circling around some notion that there's a unique sort of national veneration born from extraordinary times, like 9/11.

Kevin Spacey.

 

[TexRex]

I mean...Bill Cosby. He was America's dad.

 

[PeterJB]

The Juice had his fall from grace as well.

 

[Imari]

I don't know what a traditional conservative is anymore.

I know that emotion. I was using that phrase to try and denote the dictionary/wikipedia definition conservative as might be found anywhere in the world, as opposed to the US definition "conservative" which as you say is largely authoritarian at the moment.

Maybe America doesn't have conservatives any more, but if it does then I could see them and libertarians finding common ground against authoritarians and the current Democrat party.

 

[andrea]

Why does he always lean forward when walking? It looks like Fred Flintstone bowling.

He has platform heels built into his shoes that make him lean forward to counterbalance.

 

[GranTurNismo]

There's something seriously wrong with the turtle:

 

[Tornado]

Walked into a door.