America - The Official Thread

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I know that emotion. I was using that phrase to try and denote the dictionary/wikipedia definition conservative as might be found anywhere in the world, as opposed to the US definition "conservative" which as you say is largely authoritarian at the moment.

Maybe America doesn't have conservatives any more, but if it does then I could see them and libertarians finding common ground against authoritarians and the current Democrat party.

Perhaps the USA needs an explicitly-titled Conservative Party as a fair amount of English-speaking countries do to... I don't know, delineate themselves from the Republican Party and the "rest" of the right-wing political half?

I mean, I know there already is the Big L Libertarian Party but any members of the Republican Party with a spine and compass ought to be thinking about regrouping even if it means establishing a new party.
 
TB
Asked my wife her opinion on this. Her guess was he was tubed (the bruising around his mouth) and is on blood thinners (bruising on his hands).
That would make sense. After being questioned today Mitch claims he's in good health and we should not be worried.
 
Walked into a door.
TB
Asked my wife her opinion on this. Her guess was he was tubed (the bruising around his mouth) and is on blood thinners (bruising on his hands).
He also has bruising around his nose where the rest pad of his glasses would go (left side), suggesting his glasses have been forced into his face - hinting at an impact. There's also the plasters on his hands, which look to cover scrapes.

I figured he'd been hit by something, but given that nothing appears obviously broken a car or a horse seems unlikely. I'd posit that it was a golf buggy; if that hit him and rolled over his forearms/hands, that could have caused the bruising we see there.


Or an eagle dropped him onto Donald Trump's head, hoping to crack his shell open and eat the McConnell inside.
 
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Or an eagle dropped him onto Donald Trump's head, hoping to crack his shell open and eat the McConnell inside.

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It looks like somebody tripped and fell into a tub of Pop Rocks.

Who all here is/was/isn't sure anymore if they're libertarian? @Danoff and @Omnis for sure. Definitely some other very smart people. Let's all put our thinking caps on for a second.

What are we gonna do when the Republican party trips over itself so hard that it accidentally leads to a Democratic trifecta which then admits new Democratic states to the union which then allows Democratic leadership to persist for actual decades unchallenged. Are we "libertarians" all going to have a fit and flip sides again? We'll be careening toward a single-party government which we're all terrified of.

Screw Biden's policies or the Democratic party as it exists today - if they do things right they could cement their leadership so what I want to know is what will our politics look like 15, 20 years from now? Who will be in charge and what will they have accomplished for and/or stolen from the people?

I'm a quasi-libertarian. I would like a more limited government, but not to the full extent some libertarians want. I don't think it's possible to have the country turn libertarian. It's a stretch at the local level unless the main party candidates are really rotten. More transparency and accountability would also be great.

What I would like to see is a common sense party that adopts some of the better positions from each party and takes out the ones at the more extreme ends of each spectrum. Most important priority would be to balance the budget, so we don't keep increasing the deficit. It's pretty crazy how much money we (well most people) have to pay in federal taxes and the government can't even spend it responsibly. And that's in a 'good' economy.

I think things will keep flipping. If one party goes too extreme, people will vote more for the other party. We may get a third party that disrupts things a bit, but I'm guessing we will keep going back to two main parties.
 
Mitch is doing blackhand. For shame, Mitch. For shame.

As an aside, there's some really satisfying color coordination here:

20201023_205544.png
 
The problem with centrism and centrist parties is that instead of being appealing to people on both sides of the linear left/right, you end up pleasing neither.

And the more polarised the society, the worse this effect is.
 
Who all here is/was/isn't sure anymore if they're libertarian? @Danoff and @Omnis for sure. Definitely some other very smart people. Let's all put our thinking caps on for a second.

What are we gonna do when the Republican party trips over itself so hard that it accidentally leads to a Democratic trifecta which then admits new Democratic states to the union which then allows Democratic leadership to persist for actual decades unchallenged. Are we "libertarians" all going to have a fit and flip sides again? We'll be careening toward a single-party government which we're all terrified of.

Screw Biden's policies or the Democratic party as it exists today - if they do things right they could cement their leadership so what I want to know is what will our politics look like 15, 20 years from now? Who will be in charge and what will they have accomplished for and/or stolen from the people?
I have the opinion that the future holds further loss of freedom, opportunity, peace and prosperity. No matter which party rules. Both are corrupted.

From the '92 election on, I have consistently voted independent or 3rd party at the national level. At the simplistic level, I have strong libertarian leanings, i.e., liberal on personal freedoms, conservative on economics. Occasionally I have become outraged and protested publicly against government policies and actions, and donated money to insurgent parties and candidates. In '64 I marched for civil rights, in this year I donated to Tulsi. In between, I protested the Vietnam war, the 2nd Iraq war, and at WTO '99 the Battle of Seattle. Like some, I think Americans naively want to do the right thing, but try everything else first, blundering our way through history. IMHO, we are still making big mistakes. and there's no end of them. There is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. I would say more, but that's plenty for now.
 
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Perhaps the USA needs an explicitly-titled Conservative Party as a fair amount of English-speaking countries do to... I don't know, delineate themselves from the Republican Party and the "rest" of the right-wing political half?

I mean, I know there already is the Big L Libertarian Party but any members of the Republican Party with a spine and compass ought to be thinking about regrouping even if it means establishing a new party.

You have to bear in mind that one of the themes of the Right for the least couple of decades is that Republicans would win if they had a MORE conservative candidate ... ie. NOT someone like John McCain or Mitt Romney. They come up with Donald Trump & lo & behold ... they win! If the GOP drifts towards the centre, you will start to hear the same calls to move back to the right.
 
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One of my very favorite places, lake Bierstadt in Rocky Mountain National Park, is on fire right now. Snow coming in another 5 hours or so, but not fast enough.

colorado-photos_8501685-HDR-Edit.jpg
 
One of my very favorite places, lake Bierstadt in Rocky Mountain National Park, is on fire right now. Snow coming in another 5 hours or so, but not fast enough.

colorado-photos_8501685-HDR-Edit.jpg

Looks stunning! Is Bierstadt an actual town (and if so is the beer actually that good?) or is it named after something/someone else?
 
Looks stunning! Is Bierstadt an actual town (and if so is the beer actually that good?) or is it named after something/someone else?

It's the name of the lake (no town). It's one of the attractions of Rocky Mountain National Park. There's a trail up to that lake that looks like this:

635810965365248235-ellen.edwards.bierstadt.trail.colors.jpg


My understanding (and this is just based on messages being passed around, nothing official) is that the hill full of aspens in this shot was lit up in a backfire starting at the road (you can see in that picture) in order to stop the fire from crossing that road. The lake is up and to the right of this photo in a forest at the top of this hill.
 
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Man, I really don't want to believe that b/c it sounds way too far fetched. Melania truly is one of the few people who could absolutely sink Trump.
 
By the interaction after the debate, I was wondering if she could be pissed about getting infected with the virus among other stuff.
 
By the interaction after the debate, I was wondering if she could be pissed about getting infected with the virus among other stuff.
Last I read, she had a lingering cough from it still, so that's a good possibility if it was me. She was also wearing a mask at the debate when she met him on stage.
 
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I don't think it's much of a stretch to suggest that behind closed doors she's far more devoted to Barron than Donald.
 
It's named after the 19th century German/American landscape painter Albert Bierstadt. The lake really oughta look more like this:

View attachment 967152

It looks a lot like that. Well at least it did.

I'm getting conflicting reports now about how far the fire got. I have one map that shows that the lake went up in flames, and another that shows that it didn't.
 
Man, my question really took off.
We'll find out if Biden takes over whether he can try to restore the executive, but it would require a lot of restraint on the part of the democrats. My concern is that they'll charge right through the gaping hole that Trump has left behind, and we'll become Europe.
As far as the executive is concerned, I think "restoring" that is mostly a matter of SOP as far as Biden's behavior is concerned. Obviously there is a lot of paperwork involved in repairing foreign relationships but I have a feeling that won't be too difficult. And as far as legislating from the Oval Office, all Biden has to do is not be an overt asshole and avoid unilateral threats to anyone and everything.

I do honestly believe that the cause is dead. I'll continue to champion it, but I don't see any traction going forward.
This is insane to read from someone who introduced me to the whole idea. Talk about an existential crisis.

However, it's quite possible that the GOP could rebuild & the Republican party could re-emerge as something more resembling a European Centre-Right party, rather than a Lunatic Authoritarian party. The question is, what is going to happen to the Trump cult?
I actually am concerned about the future of the Trump cult because frankly it is a cult, I just can't shy away from that fact. I've never seen such ridiculous fandom from Ohio State or Michigan fans and you know how nuts college sports people can be. Maybe the Bills Mafia could pull it off. Tailgating a sports game is one thing, but gathering thousands of boats and 20-foot tall flags and blasting up and down the shoreline for a game that won't even be played til months from now?

I have a bad feeling that some sort of figurehead will actually maintain the cult and keep them active and in the news. Maybe Trump Jr, just seems like something he would do. This will become a permanent feature of American politics, somewhere, somehow.

The Libertarian Party as it is currently doesn't have a ton of traction and most of that comes from lack of exposure.
I don't think so. I think it's unpopular.

I thought that there was a big bloc of voters within the republicans, and within the democrats, that wanted limited government. But actually the US is primarily made up of Authoritarians and Socialists. At least that's how it seems at the moment. I'm not sure there are many voters that actually want what the libertarians stand for.

...I think that movement is authoritarian.

In this election, you're going to be able to count up the number of authoritarians really easily, because it'll be a nearly 1:1 ratio with voters for trump. I think we're expected to see more than 150 million votes in 2020, with an anticipated 45% going for trump.

I other words we have nearly 67 million authoritarians in the US. I don't doubt that a libertarian candidate running as a republican could capture many of those votes if there were no alternative. I mean, McCain was not an authoritarian and he probably got a lot of those votes. But this group is going to continue to prefer authoritarians over libertarians, and I think overall it represents a much larger group than libertarians.

Socialists are a tougher group to estimate. Bernie and Warren got a combined 11 million in the primaries. You have to think some of Biden's 20 million also included socialists as well. Just out of total guesswork, I'd say that the number of socialists in the US outnumbers the number of libertarian-minded voters by a substantial number. And authoritarians for sure.
Libertarianism does suffer from lack of exposure, and it is unpopular, but I think the reason for these are actually a lack of authoritarianism in the philosophy. It's terrifying to people.

Authoritarian character traits are human nature. I'd wager the vast majority of humanity expresses it in different ways, some minor, some major, but it's always there. At a macro scale of course modern Republicans are authoritarian but so are Democrats. The Trumps and the Bernies are the extreme examples right now but all of our politicians are authoritarian, and virtually all of the people who voted for them are authoritarian in some way. Just the simple act of voting expresses authority - the entire purpose of voting is to get your guy who will work for you and benefit you. Politicians don't say "I'll fight for you" because it sounds good, they say it because it appeals to the authoritarian nature of virtually everybody, particular those brash enough to bother voting to install their guy into a position which the voters believe they control.

People need to control something, anything, in any capacity, and we're all guilty of trying to do it. Facing the truth that we're just walking chemical reactions at the mercy of universal physics and can't actually control squat, including our chosen politicians and their billionaire friends, is incomprehensible to people. They're scared of it, so they attempt to control things. That's what humans do. Some politicians want to control you with police and economic servitude while other politicians want to control you by providing universal services in the name of the greater good. Neither of them are "free" in any way. Obviously that's where libertarianism comes in and we're like "But wait, there's a better way, with real freedom..."

And that's when people freak out, immediately label us insane, and completely dismiss the philosophy. They cannot fathom a system where they can't take comfort in either doing the controlling or being controlled. It's an impossible conversation that I've tried to have hundreds of times but only about - what are the voting averages? - 5% of the population gets it. And this is why any form of libertarianism, especially anarcho-whateverism @Omnis cannot exist here.

So that means we're stuck with a few different flavors of authoritarianism. We got Budweiser and Miller Lite which are basically the same old same old, but we also have a Coffee Stout and a DIPA if you really wanna grab politics by the horns. Pick your poison, because homebrewing is a pain in the ass and nobody wants it.

Thing is...Biden's too much like Trump for my liking.
They're both populists if that's what you're getting at. All of our politicians are. That's another thing related to libertarianism, the sheer lack of populism which is yet another reason why the philosophy is mostly irrelevant.

Old guys who have demonstrated a propensity to say stupid things and who are very likely guilty of sexual assault.
You bring up a good point. How's this for a hot take: Anybody who became sexually mature before the Me Too movement has committed sexual assault. Sexual assault is almost like a hallmark of humanity. It's an awful thing, sure, but if we really got down to nitty gritty the truth is that a lot of people have done it, we just got over it. And I mean, hell, if you're 70+ years old its virtually guaranteed because as recently as the 60s sexual assault was a glorified societal norm.

I don't expect him to be authoritarian. I don't expect Kamala to be authoritarian either, in the event that he gets killed off so that she can take power as the right likes to push. But he makes the vote against authoritarianism, as good as that should feel, feel icky.
They're definitely authoritarians and most of the people who vote for them are too, like I mentioned above. It's innate. They're literally in the business of making and enforcing rules, there's no way around it. But it's not the loud and boisterous kind where you accidentally tell everybody your actual motivations. Most of us subscribe to this closeted type of authoritarianism. We only really express it when we're comfy in our cars with the windows up and the person behind is tailgating a little too close. You know what I mean.
 
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I really don't.

It sounds like we're going to have to recalibrate the Political Compass if this is the case.
Maybe you're not one of the people with this desire, or maybe you've learned to disregard it. But I'm sure you've seen random people out in public get mad at this or that, and try to control whatever situation they're in, and it just escalates. Road rage is a perfect example, and a lot of people submit to that anger which manifests as trying to angrily control whatever situation they're in. I don't think it's natural for most of us to wooo saaa and let it go. That takes conscious effort, and that's another thing a lot of people lack.
 
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Maybe you're not one of the people with this desire, or maybe you've learned to disregard it. But I'm sure you've seen random people out in public get mad at this or that, and try to control whatever situation they're in, and it just escalates. Road rage is a perfect example, and a lot of people submit to that anger which manifests as trying to angrily control whatever situation they're in. I don't think it's natural for most of us to wooo saaa and let it go. That takes conscious effort, and that's another thing a lot of people lack.
I dare say there are at least some people among that number who identify as libertarians. Sounds to me like this is authoritarianism with a "small 'a'" and I'm not sure whether it has much bearing on their political beliefs. You could be right that the desire to vote red or blue comes from a similar place, though.
 
Man, my question really took off.

As far as the executive is concerned, I think "restoring" that is mostly a matter of SOP as far as Biden's behavior is concerned. Obviously there is a lot of paperwork involved in repairing foreign relationships but I have a feeling that won't be too difficult. And as far as legislating from the Oval Office, all Biden has to do is not be an overt asshole and avoid unilateral threats to anyone and everything.


This is insane to read from someone who introduced me to the whole idea. Talk about an existential crisis.


I actually am concerned about the future of the Trump cult because frankly it is a cult, I just can't shy away from that fact. I've never seen such ridiculous fandom from Ohio State or Michigan fans and you know how nuts college sports people can be. Maybe the Bills Mafia could pull it off. Tailgating a sports game is one thing, but gathering thousands of boats and 20-foot tall flags and blasting up and down the shoreline for a game that won't even be played til months from now?

I have a bad feeling that some sort of figurehead will actually maintain the cult and keep them active and in the news. Maybe Trump Jr, just seems like something he would do. This will become a permanent feature of American politics, somewhere, somehow.





Libertarianism does suffer from lack of exposure, and it is unpopular, but I think the reason for these are actually a lack of authoritarianism in the philosophy. It's terrifying to people.

Authoritarian character traits are human nature. I'd wager the vast majority of humanity expresses it in different ways, some minor, some major, but it's always there. At a macro scale of course modern Republicans are authoritarian but so are Democrats. The Trumps and the Bernies are the extreme examples right now but all of our politicians are authoritarian, and virtually all of the people who voted for them are authoritarian in some way. Just the simple act of voting expresses authority - the entire purpose of voting is to get your guy who will work for you and benefit you. Politicians don't say "I'll fight for you" because it sounds good, they say it because it appeals to the authoritarian nature of virtually everybody, particular those brash enough to bother voting to install their guy into a position which the voters believe they control.

People need to control something, anything, in any capacity, and we're all guilty of trying to do it. Facing the truth that we're just walking chemical reactions at the mercy of universal physics and can't actually control squat, including our chosen politicians and their billionaire friends, is incomprehensible to people. They're scared of it, so they attempt to control things. That's what humans do. Some politicians want to control you with police and economic servitude while other politicians want to control you by providing universal services in the name of the greater good. Neither of them are "free" in any way. Obviously that's where libertarianism comes in and we're like "But wait, there's a better way, with real freedom..."

And that's when people freak out, immediately label us insane, and completely dismiss the philosophy. They cannot fathom a system where they can't take comfort in either doing the controlling or being controlled. It's an impossible conversation that I've tried to have hundreds of times but only about - what are the voting averages? - 5% of the population gets it. And this is why any form of libertarianism, especially anarcho-whateverism @Omnis cannot exist here.

So that means we're stuck with a few different flavors of authoritarianism. We got Budweiser and Miller Lite which are basically the same old same old, but we also have a Coffee Stout and a DIPA if you really wanna grab politics by the horns. Pick your poison, because homebrewing is a pain in the ass and nobody wants it.


They're both populists if that's what you're getting at. All of our politicians are. That's another thing related to libertarianism, the sheer lack of populism which is yet another reason why the philosophy is mostly irrelevant.


You bring up a good point. How's this for a hot take: Anybody who became sexually mature before the Me Too movement has committed sexual assault. Sexual assault is almost like a hallmark of humanity. It's an awful thing, sure, but if we really got down to nitty gritty the truth is that a lot of people have done it, we just got over it. And I mean, hell, if you're 70+ years old its virtually guaranteed because as recently as the 60s sexual assault was a glorified societal norm.


They're definitely authoritarians and most of the people who vote for them are too, like I mentioned above. It's innate. They're literally in the business of making and enforcing rules, there's no way around it. But it's not the loud and boisterous kind where you accidentally tell everybody your actual motivations. Most of us subscribe to this closeted type of authoritarianism. We only really express it when we're comfy in our cars with the windows up and the person behind is tailgating a little too close. You know what I mean.

At its most basic, the desire to control your environment, at least to an extent, is not what I'd call authoritarianism. Otherwise the simple desire of obtaining tradable value (such as currency) is authoritarian. Because you're going to use that currency (or value) to coerce others into doing something you want them to do (like sell you a chicken). Authoritarianism is a bit different, at least in my view. It's the desire to have strict, encompassing, control imposed on the population by the government. And of course there is no hard and fast limit. But I would say that it is not authoritarian to have that control be something like taxes, or enforcement of rights, or regulation of pollution, or, for example, the creation of mass transit. Authoritarianism socially is things like making drugs illegal, making prostitution illegal, making gambling illegal, extrajudicial killing, suppression of voting, stifling free speech, requiring people to wear arm bands or rounding them into concentration camps. Authoritarianism fiscally would be things like banning the sale of particular items, banning certain imports or exports, requiring people to work certain jobs, preventing companies from firing, preventing companies from hiring, requiring immigrants to hold certain jobs, government advocating for one company over another, forced labor, slavery.

It's, of course, a spectrum of behavior, and it's a fuzzy line when someone becomes an authoritarian. But I'd definitely say that a vote for trump in 2020 qualifies as being authoritarian. I think it fits that bill pretty easily. I'm saying that we have a lot of them. I'm not sure who is voting for Trump that's not an authoritarian this year, but I'm willing to relegate them to a small slice of the total number who vote for him. So I think we're it's approximately 1:1 for US authoritarians and trump votes. Maybe it's more like 0.9:1 but... that's within the margin of error.

To be fair, to your point, that is undercounting authoritarians a bit because there are some voting for Biden (or 3rd party).
 
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