America - The Official Thread

[Keef]

I just realized that America is like the world's O-line and Russia, China, Iran are some pretty scary looking linebackers. All the rest are those annoying scrappy DBs who even celelbrate drops like they had anything to do with it.

And just like Ohio State football, I can't wait til we stop playing conservative.

 

[Danoff]

I just realized that America is like the world's O-line and Russia, China, Iran are some pretty scary looking linebackers. All the rest are those annoying scrappy DBs who even celelbrate drops like they had anything to do with it.

And just like Ohio State football, I can't wait til we stop playing conservative.

Iran and honestly Russia are not scary. And we trade with China.

As much as I like the football analogy, this isn't a game. We can all win.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I just realized that America is like the world's O-line and Russia, China, Iran are some pretty scary looking linebackers. All the rest are those annoying scrappy DBs who even celelbrate drops like they had anything to do with it.

And just like Ohio State football, I can't wait til we stop playing conservative.

Iran and Russia have been shown to be pretty weak recently. I doubt Iran could launch another attack on just Israel right now because they have basically no air defenses to fend off a counterattack, and they wouldn't be able to replace the missiles they use so they would have no deterrence either - I'd argue they are the weakest and most vulnerable they've been since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. The only option they have right now is to wind down the escalation and rebuild quietly while Hezbollah withers. Russia's performance in Ukraine has been spectacularly underwhelming - they've lost ungodly amounts of troops and equipment and they are resorting to outsourcing to basically their only do-or-die "friend" they've got left. Not to mention that Israel's strikes on Iran have shown how useless Russian-built air defense systems are. Maybe the S400 would have performed better, but realistically I doubt it. I think that the past few years have shown that Russian weapons systems are not on par with American/NATO systems AND they don't have the industrial capacity to fight a war and produce surplus for export, and that is probably concerning the Russian industrial military complex quite a bit.

China is universally untested from a military perspective. They appear to have US-rivaling tech, but absolutely zero experience - and they 100% need us (as in the USA) to keep buying their **** right now because I think their economy is teetering.

 

[Blitz24]

Iran and Russia have been shown to be pretty weak recently. I doubt Iran could launch another attack on just Israel right now because they have basically no air defenses to fend off a counterattack, and they wouldn't be able to replace the missiles they use so they would have no deterrence either - I'd argue they are the weakest and most vulnerable they've been since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. The only option they have right now is to wind down the escalation and rebuild quietly while Hezbollah withers. Russia's performance in Ukraine has been spectacularly underwhelming - they've lost ungodly amounts of troops and equipment and they are resorting to outsourcing to basically their only do-or-die "friend" they've got left. Not to mention that Israel's strikes on Iran have shown how useless Russian-built air defense systems are. Maybe the S400 would have performed better, but realistically I doubt it. I think that the past few years have shown that Russian weapons systems are not on par with American/NATO systems AND they don't have the industrial capacity to fight a war and produce surplus for export, and that is probably concerning the Russian industrial military complex quite a bit.

China is universally untested from a military perspective. They appear to have US-rivaling tech, but absolutely zero experience - and they 100% need us (as in the USA) to keep buying their **** right now because I think their economy is teetering.

Does Iran have an air force? I know they have a navy and the IRGC but I am not certain they have anything aerial other than missiles (and maybe a nuclear warhead soon).

 

[Exorcet]

Does Iran have an air force? I know they have a navy and the IRGC but I am not certain they have anything aerial other than missiles (and maybe a nuclear warhead soon).

They are the last remaining operator of the F-14. They also fly a handful of MiG's, F-4's, F-5's, and F-1's. Possibly some Foxbats taken from the Gulf War. It's a terribly outdated force often fighting for spare parts. They have been in talks with Russian about purchasing Su-35's though.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

They are the last remaining operator of the F-14. They also fly a handful of MiG's, F-4's, F-5's, and F-1's. Possibly some Foxbats taken from the Gulf War. It's a terribly outdated force often fighting for spare parts. They have been in talks with Russian about purchasing Su-35's though.

Yeah...it's so outdated that it's effectively not an air force at all. The only way Iran could provide a challenge to Israel is in a defensive ground war, but that is extraordinarily unlikely to happen because of the several countries in between them and because it's in neither country's interest to even attempt an invasion. The only logical, feasible adversarial move right now for Iran is to race to build a nuclear weapon, which would be a plausible deterrence that the ballistic missiles themselves are failing to provide. Or they could just stop being assholes, but it doesn't seem like that's how the Ayatollah rolls.

 

[Keef]

Iran and Russia have been shown to be pretty weak recently. I doubt Iran could launch another attack on just Israel right now because they have basically no air defenses to fend off a counterattack, and they wouldn't be able to replace the missiles they use so they would have no deterrence either - I'd argue they are the weakest and most vulnerable they've been since the end of the Iran-Iraq war. The only option they have right now is to wind down the escalation and rebuild quietly while Hezbollah withers. Russia's performance in Ukraine has been spectacularly underwhelming - they've lost ungodly amounts of troops and equipment and they are resorting to outsourcing to basically their only do-or-die "friend" they've got left. Not to mention that Israel's strikes on Iran have shown how useless Russian-built air defense systems are. Maybe the S400 would have performed better, but realistically I doubt it. I think that the past few years have shown that Russian weapons systems are not on par with American/NATO systems AND they don't have the industrial capacity to fight a war and produce surplus for export, and that is probably concerning the Russian industrial military complex quite a bit.

China is universally untested from a military perspective. They appear to have US-rivaling tech, but absolutely zero experience - and they 100% need us (as in the USA) to keep buying their **** right now because I think their economy is teetering.

They are the last remaining operator of the F-14. They also fly a handful of MiG's, F-4's, F-5's, and F-1's. Possibly some Foxbats taken from the Gulf War. It's a terribly outdated force often fighting for spare parts. They have been in talks with Russian about purchasing Su-35's though.

Yeah...it's so outdated that it's effectively not an air force at all. The only way Iran could provide a challenge to Israel is in a defensive ground war, but that is extraordinarily unlikely to happen because of the several countries in between them and because it's in neither country's interest to even attempt an invasion. The only logical, feasible adversarial move right now for Iran is to race to build a nuclear weapon, which would be a plausible deterrence that the ballistic missiles themselves are failing to provide. Or they could just stop being assholes, but it doesn't seem like that's how the Ayatollah rolls.

Grim Reapers did a fun video about the Iranian air force recently. In summary, it's very realistic that the US alone could take out their entire air force in one battle without a single casualty. If the planes were launched from carriers and had the aid of naval AA systems it would be even easier.



Iran's own military isn't scary. It's their willingness to use geurilla proxies to spread out and waste our resources. They're doing it very effectively right now and in very expensive ways that have gone as far as causing enough unrest within America that it could sway this election to a horrible result. There's a 50/50 chance of that happening right now. In a roundabout way, if Trump wins, Iran wins, and he has already proven this with his previous Iran policies.

Iran and honestly Russia are not scary. And we trade with China.

As much as I like the football analogy, this isn't a game. We can all win.

Russia is scary for the same reasons Iran is scary. They're willing to ignore all established rules and fight in ways that the West isn't even legally allowed to. China is the same, they're going to bend and twist the rules beyond recognition and ignore any rational negotiation. Everything is escalating in every direction. The Ukraine war has taught us that the American military is instantaneously outdated and in some ways completely irrelevant. If we don't adapt and innovate very quickly, within a decade we're going to find ourselves lobbing a few hundred Tomahawks trying to take down tens of thousands of grenade-armed quadcopter drones. Nobody will have more of them than China, they're the ones who make all the damn things.

China isn't interested in all of us winning, they're interested in China winning. The proof is in the fact that generating incredible new wealth by being America's factory for decades wasn't good enough so they've become beligerent. China is hell-bent on imposing its will upon the UN and changing international law to Chinese law.

 

[CTznOfTime]

What surprises me is not that Trump is popular among the masses. There is SOME sense in the logic that stupid people would rather be ruled by someone stupid than by someone intelligent.

No, what surprises me is that the Republican Party has let him hijack them and completely destroy them, to the point that all their intellectuals have been bullied away and they are now practically endorsing Hitler.

Clearly for the past 10 years, the right RNC GOP mAgA Republicans have been enjoying the fact that trump is triggering those on the left.

The people on the right seems to love trump more and more as he keeps triggering the left...

Simply the people on the right side is not realizing they are being destroyed slowly and surely with each time the left is being triggered.

No wonder I now understand why we have not yet reached bottom, and each time we think trump has reached bottom, the next month around, he pushes the envelope even more...

... For over 120 months back to back !?!

Crazy.

 

[Danoff]

The proof is in the fact that generating incredible new wealth by being America's factory for decades wasn't good enough so they've become beligerent.

In 2018 I was standing on the great wall, walking through the forbidden city, and touring an independent Hong Kong, but relations were already deteriorating.

China was not some great adversary until Trump came along and started blaming them for problems in the US, and then, increasingly during his first term, relations deteriorated. The longer Trump went after them, the more closed our borders became. I adopted my daughter in 2018. Today, that program is closed. Except in rare cases you cannot adopt a Chinese child any longer (from the US).

WE became belligerent. And it was Trump that spearheaded it. I remember because I was nervous about being able to adopt before Trump derailed it. I just got in under the wire.

 

[Joey D]

In 2018, I was standing on the great wall and walking through the forbidden city, but relations were already deteriorating.

China was not some great adversary until Trump came along and started blaming them for problems in the US, and then, increasingly during his first term, relations deteriorated. The longer Trump went after them, the more closed our borders became. I adopted my daughter in 2018. Today, that program is closed. Except in rare cases you cannot adopt a Chinese child any longer (from the US).

WE became belligerent. And it was Trump that spearheaded it. I remember because I was nervous about being able to adopt before Trump derailed it. I just got in under the the wire.

I think China is and will always be a problem as long as the US continues to support the independence of Taiwan. Even if Trump hasn't been a jackass to the Chinese, we were inching closer to being adversaries the more the CCP wanted to take Taiwan. The Chinese also carry out cyber attacks daily and did so well before Trump. Even when Obama was president and I was working in healthcare, the number of thwarted attacks from Chinese was rediculous. It wasn't uncommon to see multiple attempts per day. It's only gotten worse as time has gone on, but now the Russians try and do it too (although they're absolutely terrible at it, which isn't surprising).

 

[Danoff]

I think China is and will always be a problem as long as the US continues to support the independence of Taiwan. Even if Trump hasn't been a jackass to the Chinese, we were inching closer to being adversaries the more the CCP wanted to take Taiwan. The Chinese also carry out cyber attacks daily and did so well before Trump. Even when Obama was president and I was working in healthcare, the number of thwarted attacks from Chinese was rediculous. It wasn't uncommon to see multiple attempts per day. It's only gotten worse as time has gone on, but now the Russians try and do it too (although they're absolutely terrible at it, which isn't surprising).

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pretending that there was zero tension at the time and that we were the best of friends. But we were MUCH farther from war before Trump, and it is mostly down to his rhetoric and policies, which Biden, to his discredit, continued. I was watching US china relations intently because of my family during the 4 years of Trump, and it was downright shocking how fast things deteriorated.

 

[Keef]

In 2018 I was standing on the great wall, walking through the forbidden city, and touring an independent Hong Kong, but relations were already deteriorating.

China was not some great adversary until Trump came along and started blaming them for problems in the US, and then, increasingly during his first term, relations deteriorated. The longer Trump went after them, the more closed our borders became. I adopted my daughter in 2018. Today, that program is closed. Except in rare cases you cannot adopt a Chinese child any longer (from the US).

WE became belligerent. And it was Trump that spearheaded it. I remember because I was nervous about being able to adopt before Trump derailed it. I just got in under the wire.

Trump was an ass indeed but Xi is China's problem, not Trump. He's been in power for 12 years now and it's under his tenure when China's expansionist goals became outwardly aggressive. The previous two presidents spent over twenty years revitalizing China domestically, bringing in all the industry and productivity that we associate China with today. Throughout my childhood through the 2000s, the biggest complaint we had about China was that everything was made there. Xi's platform marked the change from inward growth to outward expansion. Trump just happened to be an idiot who butted heads with him, but Xi's international influence plans, belt and road efforts, string of pearls, African financing, and 9-dash line beligerence all started years before Trump was in office. China started building islands in the SCS in 2013, just a year after Xi came to power. Trump was simply riding his coattails after seeing that Xi's policy changes actually worked in China (due to China's lack of checks and general lawlessness) like the 2018 elimination of presidential term limits which Trump took to considering as well.

China has much bigger goals that have nothing to do with Trump so it's kind of ridiculous you think that asshole influenced them in any way. China's goal is supplant the US as the global power and economic standard. Accomplishing that by 2049 is their official policy. Their own mismanagement of their economy has absolutely nothing to do with anything Trump did, although he's convinced he's had a hand in everything.

 

[Danoff]

Trump was an ass indeed but Xi is China's problem, not Trump. He's been in power for 12 years now and it's under his tenure when China's expansionist goals became outwardly aggressive. The previous two presidents spent over twenty years revitalizing China domestically, bringing in all the industry and productivity that we associate China with today. Throughout my childhood through the 2000s, the biggest complaint we had about China was that everything was made there. Xi's platform marked the change from inward growth to outward expansion. Trump just happened to be an idiot who butted heads with him, but Xi's international influence plans, belt and road efforts, string of pearls, African financing, and 9-dash line beligerence all started years before Trump was in office. China started building islands in the SCS in 2013, just a year after Xi came to power. Trump was simply riding his coattails after seeing that Xi's policy changes actually worked in China (due to China's lack of checks and general lawlessness) like the 2018 elimination of presidential term limits which Trump took to considering as well.

China has much bigger goals that have nothing to do with Trump so it's kind of ridiculous you think that asshole influenced them in any way. China's goal is supplant the US as the global power and economic standard. Accomplishing that by 2049 is their official policy. Their own mismanagement of their economy has absolutely nothing to do with anything Trump did, although he's convinced he's had a hand in everything.

I'm not sure you understood what I was trying to say. I'm not saying that Xi became an expansionist because of Trump, or that China's military development, or infrastructure, were a direct result of Trump administration policies. Though it is an open question how much Chinese authoritarianism was spurred by conflict with the US.

I'm saying that China-US relations deteriorated because Trump was an asshole to them both in rhetoric and in policy. We had a good relationship with China prior to 2016. Not perfect, good. It's not good now.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Trump was an ass indeed but Xi is China's problem, not Trump. He's been in power for 12 years now and it's under his tenure when China's expansionist goals became outwardly aggressive. The previous two presidents spent over twenty years revitalizing China domestically, bringing in all the industry and productivity that we associate China with today. Throughout my childhood through the 2000s, the biggest complaint we had about China was that everything was made there. Xi's platform marked the change from inward growth to outward expansion. Trump just happened to be an idiot who butted heads with him, but Xi's international influence plans, belt and road efforts, string of pearls, African financing, and 9-dash line beligerence all started years before Trump was in office. China started building islands in the SCS in 2013, just a year after Xi came to power. Trump was simply riding his coattails after seeing that Xi's policy changes actually worked in China (due to China's lack of checks and general lawlessness) like the 2018 elimination of presidential term limits which Trump took to considering as well.

China has much bigger goals that have nothing to do with Trump so it's kind of ridiculous you think that asshole influenced them in any way. China's goal is supplant the US as the global power and economic standard. Accomplishing that by 2049 is their official policy. Their own mismanagement of their economy has absolutely nothing to do with anything Trump did, although he's convinced he's had a hand in everything.

I don't know why so many Americans feel threatened by this. Of course they will try - they are an ambitious group of people. But China is not 10 feet tall. Even if they manage to hold things together long enough become the largest nation by GDP in the world, it won't be sustainable. There's clear evidence that the young people of China are becoming burned out (just like Japan from the mid-90s to now) and they are facing structural long term problems. China has had the monetary policy foot to the floor for decades now, and they have a population problem that isn't easily fixable because nobody other than Chinese people in other countries want to immigrate there. China would have to become a lot more like the USA (more free & open, less culturally xenophobic) to become "greater" than the USA in the long term. Being a welcoming & diverse country is not some wokey trope - it's a genuinely useful statecraft advantage. People want to be here*, and until that stops being the case, it will continue to be our most strategic asset.

*I'm not saying everyone wants to be here - I'm not sure even I want to be here sometimes - but the USA for me is unique in that it doesn't have a specific culture other than that it's relatively free and opportunity rich. Anyone can be an American in a way that few other countries (Australia & Canada I think are similar) manage.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I don't know why so many Americans feel threatened by this. Of course they will try - they are an ambitious group of people. But China is not 10 feet tall. Even if they manage to hold things together long enough become the largest nation by GDP in the world, it won't be sustainable. There's clear evidence that the young people of China are becoming burned out (just like Japan from the mid-90s to now) and they are facing structural long term problems. China has had the monetary policy foot to the floor for decades now, and they have a population problem that isn't easily fixable because nobody other than Chinese people in other countries want to immigrate there. China would have to become a lot more like the USA (more free & open, less culturally xenophobic) to become "greater" than the USA in the long term. Being a welcoming & diverse country is not some wokey trope - it's a genuinely useful statecraft advantage. People want to be here*, and until that stops being the case, it will continue to be our most strategic asset.

*I'm not saying everyone wants to be here - I'm not sure even I want to be here sometimes - but the USA for me is unique in that it doesn't have a specific culture other than that it's relatively free and opportunity rich. Anyone can be an American in a way that few other countries (Australia & Canada I think are similar) manage.

Exactly well said.
Our diversity and encouraging a healthy constructive more human centric conversation and discussions is exactly what we need here in order to secure that very unique strength that no other country has...

Being open minded is actually strength.

 

[Danoff]

I don't know why so many Americans feel threatened by this. Of course they will try - they are an ambitious group of people.

I realize that I'm fighting a losing battle when arguing that the US could be getting along with China today, and we were doing so in the very recent past. I think somehow China is just an assumed rival. This is perhaps Trump's most successful branding in the minds of US citizens - that China is a rival and adversary.

It was not long ago that they were not. And nobody remembers it somehow.

Edit:

Before people jump on this, I know that China has a long history of rights violations and various nefariousness. I know that they are deeply authoritarian, and ultimately very Trumpy (more accurately, Trump is very Chinese) in their government structure. I'm not saying that I want the US to be like China or that China is flawless. I'm saying we used to get along reasonably well.

 

[CTznOfTime]

I realize that I'm fighting a losing battle when arguing that the US could be getting along with China today, and we were doing so in the very recent past. I think somehow China is just an assumed rival. This is perhaps Trump's most successful branding in the minds of US citizens - that China is a rival and adversary.

It was not long ago that they were not. And nobody remembers it somehow.

I think it's the opposite.

China's government very much see the US as their ultimate rival.

We are just reacting to what and how they treat us...

China will never concede to the US until they are are recognized as a world power.

 

[Danoff]

I think it's the opposite.

China's government very much see the US as their ultimate rival.

We are just reacting to what and how they treat us...

Really? In what way are we reacting to how they treat us? Relations were good when Trump came along and started scapegoating China for everything he could think of. He started enacting anti-Chinese policy, and they have responded to that.

China will never concede to the US until they are are recognized as a world power.

Concede what?

 

[TheCracker]

The US doesn't 'beat' China by emulating its authoritarian regime. Ultimately China has four times the population/manpower, so you can't beat it at its own game with those raw figures.

The US stays at the 'top of the pile' by being itself. Doing what it does best. By evolving, not by dragging its heals or copying. That's always where its power has come from on the world stage. Offering an opportunity for it's citizens, whatever colour or creed (or sex) to innovate and succeed.

 

[Joey D]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not pretending that there was zero tension at the time and that we were the best of friends. But we were MUCH farther from war before Trump, and it is mostly down to his rhetoric and policies, which Biden, to his discredit, continued. I was watching US china relations intently because of my family during the 4 years of Trump, and it was downright shocking how fast things deteriorated.

I'm still not sure I agree. China relations have been hit or miss pretty much my entire life.

that China is a rival and adversary.

I think China is a rival and adversary. The CCP is awful and on par with other terrible governments like that of Russia, Israel, North Korea, and Iran. The CCP carries out genocide, they don't respect the country's sovereignty, and they continuously attempt to destabilize Western powers. The cyber attacks come directly from the government, which they use to actively attack the US. Like Russia, they push disinformation. They spy on our citizens and have even set up secret police stations in our country. There's also the whole thing with TikTok that China actively uses to data mine citizens in other countries (although users willingly let that happen). There's enough credible evidence that the Chinese use TikTok as a backdoor that I'm not allowed to access it on any device that I also access work stuff on.

Right now, I think Israel is the biggest threat to kicking off a World War followed by Russia. But China is coming close behind. The US is bound to protect Taiwan and the CCP isn't going to sit on their hands forever with the country. They will likely attempt to invade Taiwan at some point in the next 25 years.

Also, China is the reason COVID exists, and they did everything they could to prevent an investigation from occurring into the origins of COVID. Do I think it was deliberately released as a bioweapon? No. But is China the reason millions of people died from a new virus? Yes.

I can and do criticize Trump for most things he did. Taking a strong stance on China is one of the few things I don't fault him for. Granted, the way that he approached that stance was a bit misguided in some areas (mainly with tariffs) but labeling them an adversary isn't something I think was wrong. Americans should know what the CCP is doing and then decide if they want to buy fewer goods made in China. We shouldn't put tariffs on anything because that never works. But if people make the decision not to buy Chinese goods then companies will eventually move production on their own.

 

[Danoff]

I'm still not sure I agree. China relations have been hit or miss pretty much my entire life.

Prior to 2016, it was FAR superior. No question, not close, not even remotely close.

I think China is a rival and adversary. The CCP is awful and on par with other terrible governments like that of Russia, Israel, North Korea, and Iran.

China is like a more restrained and calculating Russia. We used to trade more with Russia too, before they invaded Ukraine. If China were to invade Taiwan, that would be the time to become adversarial. Not when you want to win an election and the people outside of your borders make an easy scapegoat.

The CCP carries out genocide, they don't respect the country's sovereignty, and they continuously attempt to destabilize Western powers. The cyber attacks come directly from the government, which they use to actively attack the US. Like Russia, they push disinformation.

You mean now? Or before Trump? How much misinformation was China pushing during the Obama admin?

They spy on our citizens and have even set up secret police stations in our country. There's also the whole thing with TikTok that China actively uses to data mine citizens in other countries (although users willingly let that happen). There's enough credible evidence that the Chinese use TikTok as a backdoor that I'm not allowed to access it on any device that I also access work stuff on.

Tik Tok wasn't even founded before Trump.

Also, China is the reason COVID exists, and they did everything they could to prevent an investigation from occurring into the origins of COVID. Do I think it was deliberately released as a bioweapon? No. But is China the reason millions of people died from a new virus? Yes.

And how do you think the US would have handled it? How do you think Russia would have handled it? Is this a reason to declare them an enemy?

I can and do criticize Trump for most things he did. Taking a strong stance on China is one of the few things I don't fault him for. Granted, the way that he approached that stance was a bit misguided in some areas (mainly with tariffs) but labeling them an adversary isn't something I think was wrong. Americans should know what the CCP is doing and then decide if they want to buy fewer goods made in China. We shouldn't put tariffs on anything because that never works. But if people make the decision not to buy Chinese goods then companies will eventually move production on their own.

Taking a "strong" stance on China basically backfired into where we are today. Both nations are worse off, and we're closer to war.

 

[CTznOfTime]

Really? In what way are we reacting to how they treat us? Relations were good when Trump came along and started scapegoating China for everything he could think of. He started enacting anti-Chinese policy, and they have responded to that.



Concede what?

Relations were good, only on the surface.
In the back, China will always be China, they are working to beat the US to become the #1 superpower, even if they give a friendly face...

Dont be fooled.

China will never concede and give up to say that the US is the #1 superpower.

They are still hoping to be the world #1 and make Chinese the universal language.

You can laugh and dismiss it, but that's exactly the reason and their motivation.

 

[Liquid]

China is the new Soviet Union in terms of US diplomatic relations. That doesn't mean that trade and economic links are the same as they once were, but I do see it as:

"good" relations = less public animosity

It's always there, just depends how cool the tension is at a given time.

 

[Danoff]

Relations were good, only on the surface.
In the back, China will always be China, they are working to beat the US to become the #1 superpower, even if they give a friendly face...

Dont be fooled.

China will never concede and give up to say that the US is the #1 superpower.

They are still hoping to be the world #1 and make Chinese the universal language.

You can laugh and dismiss it, but that's exactly the reason and their motivation.

Concede and declare the US the #1 superpower? Who cares? I do not need Xi to issue such a statement, and it would change nothing if he did.

My goal is not to "beat china" or to stay "#1" or any of that. My goal is peace and prosperity. I'd have thought this would be the goal of most people, but for some reason when it comes to China people are like... screw peace and prosperity, we need to win.

This is not a dick measuring contest.

 

[Joey D]

China is like a more restrained and calculating Russia. We used to trade more with Russia too, before they invaded Ukraine. If China were to invade Taiwan, that would be the time to become adversarial. Not when you want to win an election and the people outside of your borders make an easy scapegoat.

China threatens Taiwan all the time. They're already acting like an adversary. If they wanted to cool things off, they'd respect Taiwan's existence, or at the very least, quit trying to carry out poorly executed exercises to saber rattle.

You mean now? Or before Trump? How much misinformation was China pushing during the Obama admin?

They've been committing genocide against the Tibetans since 1959 and the Uyghurs since at least 2014. They've not respecting other countries' sovereignty since the Qing Dynasty with Tibet (so like 1700-ish), probably longer but my Chinese history isn't great. They've been trying to destabilize the West since at least the Cold War era. So I don't think any of it is really new.

Tik Tok wasn't even founded before Trump.

Technically, it was, but only by a few months. It first came out in September 2016. But I was using it more as an example of how the Chinese attempt to destabilize the West and spy on our citizens.

And how do you think the US would have handled it? How do you think Russia would have handled it? Is this a reason to declare them an enemy?

The US, at the bare minimum, would've allowed the information about COVID to get out because our government doesn't censor the media nearly as much as China does. As soon as a bunch of people started getting sick, it would've been all over the 24-hour news networks and it would've forced the US government's hand to do something. I don't know if the US would've wanted to be forthright about COVID or not, but it wouldn't have hard a choice.

Russia would've botched it, but they botch everything.

China was an enemy before COVID, though, which is likely why they stonewalled the West from attempting to investigate and kept things hidden. China also fears looking weak.

Taking a "strong" stance on China basically backfired into where we are today. Both nations are worse off, and we're closer to war.

We're close to war because China won't respect Taiwan's sovereignty. That's pretty much the only reason we will go to war with China right now. Nothing any US politician will do will change that because China believes in the "one China policy" and doesn't understand that it doesn't get to claim all that land as its own. It does it all the time with the South China Sea, too.

I don't think we take a strong enough stance on China right now either. Until they stand down on Taiwan, they should be treated like an enemy since Taiwan is our ally.

 

[Danoff]

China threatens Taiwan all the time. They're already acting like an adversary. If they wanted to cool things off, they'd respect Taiwan's existence, or at the very least, quit trying to carry out poorly executed exercises to saber rattle.

I don't think we take a strong enough stance on China right now either. Until they stand down on Taiwan, they should be treated like an enemy since Taiwan is our ally.

I do not think China should be permitted to attack Taiwan either. I see it very similar to Russia/Ukraine, where we pushed back hard when Russia attacked. We did not go to war with Russia over it, but I don't know all of the nuances between US-Ukraine and US-Taiwan relations so I can't say exactly what an appropriate response is.

They've been committing genocide against the Tibetans since 1959 and the Uyghurs since at least 2014. They've not respecting other countries' sovereignty since the Qing Dynasty with Tibet (so like 1700-ish), probably longer but my Chinese history isn't great. They've been trying to destabilize the West since at least the Cold War era. So I don't think any of it is really new.

This is not really what was asked. What was asked was whether they were engaging in misinformation during the Obama admin. You were citing misinformation, I'm asking that we differentiate between China's actions pre-Trump and post-Trump.

Technically, it was, but only by a few months. It first came out in September 2016. But I was using it more as an example of how the Chinese attempt to destabilize the West and spy on our citizens.

I looked it up prior to posting it and decided that the campaign leading up to 2016 was not pre-Trump.

The US, at the bare minimum, would've allowed the information about COVID to get out because our government doesn't censor the media nearly as much as China does.

During COVID, the Trump admin actively attempted to suppress our case reporting. In his view, if we didn't report cases, we didn't have cases, or a pandemic.

China was an enemy before COVID, though, which is likely why they stonewalled the West from attempting to investigate and kept things hidden. China also fears looking weak.

You were using COVID as a way to establish that they're an enemy.

Here's my point. If you want to establish that China was an enemy before Trump, we should be looking at US-China relations before Trump. Not after or during.

 

[Tornado]

I'm derailing this important conversation about the Trump Administration's increasingly hostile relationship with China:

Yeah...it's so outdated that it's effectively not an air force at all.

ur dumb

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm derailing this important conversation about the Trump Administration's increasingly hostile relationship with China:


ur dumb

I was actually thinking about this exact scene. Wonder if Iran has any Iran-Iraq war aces still in flying condition (talking Pilots, not planes)? The Iranians actually did really well against Iraq until the USA started throwing our support behind Saddam Hussein.