Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria

[arora]

Yeah, he's always been a bit soft and probably more so now that he's gone main media(a few years ago?). I've watched him for several years, mostly because he's able to get all the players in any major news event.

This one is probably very similar to how the Dan Rathers interview went with Sadam, he received a ton of flack for that but I'll never forget his response. Paraphrased "It was my interview, I asked him what I wanted, if you want him to answer different questions go ask him yourself"

 

[arora]

I just watched the full interview not the short you saw from cbs. I'll wait till it's uploaded to the web and link it in this post. I'll wait till others have seen it to discuss 👍

CHARLIE ROSE: Very difficult, Judy.

But, in the end, what happened is that I basically said to them, look, for my program, we will do an unedited interview for 53 minutes, an hour, the same thing I did with the president of the United States. And that was acceptable.

They had had some experience in which they felt like an interview had been sort of manipulated. And so, without getting into that, I said I will give you an unedited interview.

EDIT: here it is

​

 

[Vegard]

I looked him up and it certainly looks like him.

He was dreadful. He sounded and acted like a politician, speaking vaguely, dodging points, using really broad language - and Assad just killed him.*


*Figuratively

Later that evening on Fox news: "...sources tells us this is the guy who killed Charlie Rose. We have to bomb them back to the stoneage right now."

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I've recently seen an interview between a reporter I don't recognise and Bashar al-Assad on probably-CNN (it was broadcast on Sky and they buddy up sometimes).

everything else

It was Charlie Rose a respected journalist, and CBS news which I'd say is far better than CNN and actually would allow their reporter to look bad than say Anderson Cooper or some other.

Also I have to agree with the point he made about Kerry compared to Colin Powell, was a good one. He said something more so along the lines that Colin Powell actually showed made up bull crap to the public while the Obama admin doesn't even go to that extent. However, I don't see where he killed rose, I think part of it he took a soft approach just to get the story out there and let the guy tell his side. Yet he challenged him, when needed and some points by Assad were good if not great but others seemed like a mad man also.

 

[Touring Mars]

Apparently Syria has accepted a Russian proposal to place its chemical weapons under international control, an idea originally (and some say accidentally) suggested by John Kerry the other day. It still may not be enough to convince the US not to press ahead with military action (Congressional disapproval notwithstanding), but it is a very significant development nevertheless. The key word in the Russian proposal is 'international', and France have put this idea to the test by drafting a UN resolution that will formalise what is meant by 'international control'. Analysts says that the process of relieving al-Assad of him chemical weapons stockpile may take years, however, but at least some progress is being made and, somehow, a possible resolution that keeps both the Russians and the Americans happy could be on the table.

 

[MadFlavour]

Apparently Syria has accepted a Russian proposal to place its chemical weapons under international control, an idea originally (and some say accidentally) suggested by John Kerry the other day. It still may not be enough to convince the US not to press ahead with military action (Congressional disapproval notwithstanding), but it is a very significant development nevertheless. The key word in the Russian proposal is 'international', and France have put this idea to the test by drafting a UN resolution that will formalise what is meant by 'international control'. Analysts says that the process of relieving al-Assad of him chemical weapons stockpile may take years, however, but at least some progress is being made and, somehow, a possible resolution that keeps both the Russians and the Americans happy could be on the table.

Can someone please explain why the US are getting involved? Did they sniff oil?

 

[Vegard]

US Senator John McCain and Lindsey Graham said the possibility of Syrian President Assad giving up control of his chemical weapons should make members of Congress more willing to vote for the authorization for the use of military force. In a joint statement, the paid said:

Congress should proceed with its plans to consider and vote on the authorization for use of force that is now before the Senate, and today's development should make members of Congress more willing to vote yes.

 

[arora]

US Senator John McCain and Lindsey Graham said the possibility of Syrian President Assad giving up control of his chemical weapons should make members of Congress more willing to vote for the authorization for the use of military force. In a joint statement, the paid said:

Authorizing use of and actually using are two distinct things, I'm sure the reasoning is along the lines of... Assad is admitting he has a bunch of bad things, lets keep the pressure up to make sure inspections, containment, UN blah blah, whatever it is to get the evil chemicals under control happens.

We did something similar in Iraq and while the inspectors and Sadam were playing dosey doh and nothing was changing, well we bombed the hell out of him.

I'm not saying I agree but it's not an illogical approach.

 

[Touring Mars]

Authorizing use of and actually using are two distinct things, I'm sure the reasoning is along the lines of... Assad is admitting he has a bunch of bad things, lets keep the pressure up to make sure inspections, containment, UN blah blah, whatever it is to get the evil chemicals under control happens.

We did something similar in Iraq and while the inspectors and Sadam were playing dosey doh and nothing was changing, well we bombed the hell out of him.

I'm not saying I agree but it's not an illogical approach.

Exactly.

Ironically, since Obama/Kerry have already threatened to a) ignore the UN (and international law) and b) ignore Congress (and US law) and attack Syria anyway, a 'Yes' vote in Congress is actually more likely to prevent US military action than it is likely to encourage it - since a Yes vote keeps up the pressure, which appears to be winning concessions (even if they are ultimately unworkable/pointless) from Russia and Syria, while a No vote doesn't guarantee anything other than to make it more likely that Assad doesn't back down and thus make US military action more likely as well.

 

[Vegard]

@arora and TM:

It's illogical to me, but we seem to have different premises.

Let's agree to disagree and move on.

 

[arora]

Was that just to have the last word? Pretty sure I had already moved on, tell you what, tell me again and I promise I will.

 

[Akira AC]

Hmmm...

Now is down to the Russians and the Chinese.

 

[Touring Mars]

An interesting op-ed piece appeared in the New York Times yesterday, by Vladimir Putin:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/o...ution-from-russia-on-syria.html?src=twr&_r=3&

He makes an interesting point about the necessity to obey international law and cites the abandonment of it as a principle reason why countries seek to acquire weapons of mass destruction in order to protect themselves from (I presume illegal) invasions.

It's worth a read, and it's a well-timed intervention, although he can't resist a few digs at the US - but generally speaking, he makes a stronger case than Obama has managed thus far.

 

[BobK]

Never thought I'd see the day when I'd be agreeing more with the Russian government than with my own.

 

[Dotini]

It's worth a read, and it's a well-timed intervention, although he can't resist a few digs at the US - but generally speaking, he makes a stronger case than Obama has managed thus far.

Yes, it's worth a read; I was waiting for this part:

And I would rather disagree with a case he made on American exceptionalism, stating that the United States’ policy is “what makes America different. It’s what makes us exceptional.” It is extremely dangerous to encourage people to see themselves as exceptional, whatever the motivation. There are big countries and small countries, rich and poor, those with long democratic traditions and those still finding their way to democracy. Their policies differ, too. We are all different, but when we ask for the Lord’s blessings, we must not forget that God created us equal.

Vlad and everybody else needs to understand why America sees itself as truly exceptional:

We are ordained by God as the most perfect nation on Earth, and the rightful leaders, i.e., rulers of the planet.

We are the most powerful people on Earth, and our might makes whatever we do right, regardless of whether it really is right.

We are the greatest empire on Earth, dwarfing Rome and Britain, with troops in 150 countries. Complete and total proof of our might and right.

We are on a mission to remake the world in our image for the greater glory of our God and His mandate to us and us alone.

 

[Touring Mars]

Haha, a frank and honest assessment there, Steve 👍

Every nation thinks that they are exceptional in some way or another - America really is an exceptional nation by many standards, but I think it is quite dangerous to conflate exceptional achievements with exceptional privilege.

Meanwhile, in Maaloula, the Syrian army, alongside local Christians, are fighting jihadi 'rebels' from the al-Nusra front.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24051440

 

[arora]

Did Kerry and McCain actually use information from a green 26 year old with or without a phd and belonging to a left wing wack job lobby to solidify their stance on the floor?

Elizabeth O’Bagy has just taken the fall.

 

[Sanji Himura]

McCain has always been a warhawk. No news here. The real problem is that when this resolution fails, and it will fail, that Obama will strike anyways without any legal justification and be branded a war criminal just like Rumsfield.

 

[Rage Racer]

Sometimes I realize that... Putin is not so bad. His internal policy may be questionable, but when it comes to foreign affairs, I agree with him in most points.

Every nation thinks that they are exceptional in some way or another - America really is an exceptional nation by many standards, but I think it is quite dangerous to conflate exceptional achievements with exceptional privilege.

Sure. Nazi Germany governed by Hitler was exactly about "exceptionalism". You know what it resulted in.

 

[Famine]

A quick reminder.

A borderline tyrannical, ex-KGB breadbasket has just intervened in the attempts of a Nobel Peace Prize winner to start an international war...

 

[Johnnypenso]

A quick reminder.

A borderline tyrannical, ex-KGB breadbasket has just intervened in the attempts of a Nobel Peace Prize winner to start an international war...

And I cannot stop laughing at the irony of this situation. Obama the NPP winner, scooped through diplomacy by a former spy and now being lectured to through a leading American newspaper by that very same spy. Delicious

 

[Nicksfix]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24051440

Ohhhh, the not so user friendly captions I thought of while looking at this picture.

 

[Dotini]

I enjoyed this piece in The Guardian which considers Putin's recent acclaimed op-ed in the NY Times, and thoroughly relegates morality based foreign policy as more dangerous than policy rooted in pragmatism.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/13/putin-syria-machiavelli-nyt-op-ed
America's long tradition of morally guided politics was inherited from John Stuart Mill and finds its latest expression with Obama's foreign policy adviser Samantha Power, an influential scholar of humanitarian intervention. In a recent speech, she warned that inaction over Syria would remain on our conscience.

 

[DK]

The rebels have released footage which seems to indicate an Iranian military presence in Syria. [BBC]

 

[Dotini]

The rebels have released footage which seems to indicate an Iranian military presence in Syria. [BBC]

I don't doubt it! Iranians are Shiite, as are the ruling Alawite Syrians. Shia currently rule in Iraq. Lebanon's Hezbollah are Shiite. The bulk of the Islamic world is Sunni, and the two sects are locked in mortal combat over Syria.

An axis (crescent?) of roughly allied and mutually supportive Shia runs from Iran, through Iraq and Syria into Lebanon.

 

[Rage Racer]

- We're gonna bomb you!
- Just give us your chemical weapons and nothing's gonna happen...

 

[Dotini]

Over the weekend, an Egyptian military helicopter with 5 soldiers aboard was shot down with a MANPAD, or man-portable surface-to-air missile, by militants in the north Sinai, near Gaza.

“This is what everyone has long assumed could happen, and it is a confirmation of those fears — that substantial and advanced weaponry came into the country in the aftermath of the Libyan war,” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/27/w...ptian-helicopter-killing-5-soldiers.html?_r=0

.

 

[Badasp5.0]

Over the weekend, an Egyptian military helicopter with 5 soldiers aboard was shot down with a MANPAD, or man-portable surface-to-air missile, by militants in the north Sinai, near Gaza.

“This is what everyone has long assumed could happen, and it is a confirmation of those fears — that substantial and advanced weaponry came into the country in the aftermath of the Libyan war,” http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/27/w...ptian-helicopter-killing-5-soldiers.html?_r=0

.

More than likely a SA-7 was used. Not that advanced but sill it complicates things if the insurgents have MANPADS and know how to use them (Those legacy systems are a bit harder to use successfully)

 

[Liquid]

At the same time, Egypt approved a new constitution with 98.1% approval but only 38.6% turnout.

 

[Dennisch]

The Arab spring didn't work out so well as it first seemed to do so.

Libya, Tunisia, Egypt are still semi-warzones. And Syria, well..