Arab spring uprises Tunisia/Egypt/Libya/Syria

[Dotini]

You won't.

I will.

But it may take some time. Hersh is typically months to years ahead of MSM. He's won many awards, including the Pulitzer.

 

[squadops]

Sigh. You made the claim, you prove it.

Sigh, this took about 20 seconds on google.

http://humansarefree.com/2011/10/muammar-gaddafi-truth.html
https://therisingcontinent.com/2013/10/18/when-gaddafi-rescued-africa-financially/

Some of that is surely right up your alley

 

[TenEightyOne]

Sigh, this took about 20 seconds on google.

http://humansarefree.com/2011/10/muammar-gaddafi-truth.html
https://therisingcontinent.com/2013/10/18/when-gaddafi-rescued-africa-financially/

Some of that is surely right up your alley

So people in favoured tribes did well in that single immensely-rich country, that's hardly news. The flip side is that he funded terror campaigns and, with his family, stole billions from the country. Those not in favoured tribes were persecuted and hounded out of their country. With the exception of spending on the ANC (hardly a surprise) no wealth made it into the rest of Africa. He wasn't there to bail out Ethiopia, he wasn't there to bail out Somalia, he wasn't there to bail out Eritrea, he was stealing money while Africa starved.

I guess for an American it's hard to imagine what it's like having a constant threat of genuine terror attacks every day - that's what it was like for Europeans when people like Gaddafi were funding campaigns here. We know quite a lot about him and probably put less store in conspiracist after-the-fact "Gaddafi was actually okay" sites that you seem to have got most of your information from.

 

[squadops]

I don't dispute any of that, you argued that he did nothing great for his country and the continent, I claimed and proved that he did. International communications alone was a great feet.

On a side note...

Why do you think he was such a threat to the west? We didn't kill him over human rights violations you know. In fact the rebels we armed were guilty of ethnic cleansing. (You don't want to hear about the threat he posed to the west's economy or the organizing of a united Africa which he was working on so I won't say it)

https://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2011/07/07/libya-ethnic-cleansing/

 

[Dennisch]

I don't dispute any of that, you argued that he did nothing great for his country and the continent, I claimed and proved that he did. International communications alone was a great feet.

Hitler gave us the Autobahn.

 

[BobK]

Hitler gave us the Autobahn.

...and Mussolini made the trains run on time.

 

[Touring Mars]

Scary to see how old this thread is...

Trump has called time on the covert US backing of rebels in Syria, signalling that US opposition to the Assad regime is no longer a priority.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/19/world/middleeast/cia-arming-syrian-rebels.html

While this doesn't mean the war in Syria is likely to end any time soon, it does signal a major shift of US policy toward the Assad regime, and has been welcomed by Russia.

 

[Dotini]

Hitler gave us the Autobahn.

How about the Nurburgring and the insane '34-'37 750kg formula for Mercedes and Auto Union GP cars?

Without Hitler, Helene Meyer's Jewish father never would have been threatened and she would never have fenced for Germany at the Olympics, then fled to the US where my mother fenced with her at Mills College, Oakland, for 3+ years. And I never would have learned to fence. Strange are the twists of history, the uses of adversity, and my 2 degrees of separation with Hitler.

 

[twitcher]

Really not sure if this is the correct thread, but I'm interested in any news stories that people have regarding the demonstrations and protests in Iran, which started 28 Dec 2017.

So far, I can barely find any coverage on mainstream media outlets. CBC.ca has all of 2 articles, 1 about pro-regime counter protests, and 1 featuring the quotes of the Iranian leadership blaming "enemies" for insisting the protests. CNN.com has 1 article that I could find. Neither website has anything about Iran on its front page.

Where I have been getting news is twitter, where I've seen dozens of videos of massive, massive street protests, rivalling what we saw in Egypt a few years ago. From what I can gather from twitter, part of what the protestor and are pissed about is the coverage and representation they have received from western media.

I'm no Trump supporter, but from what I can gather, Trump and Israeli leadership are the only 2 world governments to make a stance, siding with the Iranian people. So far, Trudeau and Corbin have remained silent on the situation.

I'm not looking to take a stance, I'm just looking for more info. Anyone with info about what is actually happening, and why, would be greatly appreciated.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Really not sure if this is the correct thread, but I'm interested in any news stories that people have regarding the demonstrations and protests in Iran, which started 28 Dec 2017.

I can't speak for the US news but the sites/papers I regularly read from France, Germany and the UK have had it on their front pages daily. The BBC will have a good archive of stories, they've also had it on their front page since it began.

Why do you think US outlets aren't bothering? Too foreign?

 

[KungFury]

Why do you think US outlets aren't bothering? Too foreign?

Seeing as how well things have turned out after the first wave maybe they no longer wish to take credit.

I've seen it popping up as a side note in stories about Trump/Israel unduing whatever Obama/Kerry where doing. Our media

 

[Dotini]

Why do you think US outlets aren't bothering? Too foreign?

Probably no one in the world lusts more for the destruction of the current (Shia) regime in Iran than Trump, Netanyahu and the House of Saud. If the Iranian people are truly mounting a revolution on their own, well how lucky is that!

Ron Paul sees CIA fngerprints. And if they don't want it in the NY Times, it likely won't be printed.
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/01/02/ron-paul-on-iran-protests-cia-fingerprints/

http://news.antiwar.com/2018/01/02/dozens-killed-as-iran-protests-continue-to-grow/
The protests began, now nearly a week ago, as economic ones, with Iranians expressing growing disquiet about the rising inflation and unemployment rates in the country, having expected the nuclear deal and removal of sanctions to create more immediate economic opportunities.

Violent crackdowns on these rallies quickly turned things political, and even as moderate reformists like President Rouhani sought to defend the right for peaceful protest, security forces seemed to be more aggressive in crackdowns.

Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has increasingly sought to present the protests as the result of foreign enemies trying to foment unrest, saying they are using “money, weapons, politics, and security apparatus” to create problems in Iran.

Edit:
Trump, with "perfect moral clarity", eggs on regime change in Iran. The liberal US media, with even greater and more perfect (if differing) moral clarity, sits on its hands.

 

[twitcher]

From what I'm seeing on Twitter, part of the origins of the public uprising was women starting to take a stance against the manditory wearing of islamic garb. There's a thing called "Brave Girls" or something, not sure if that's an official name, but it involves women removing religious attire in public, as well as wearing white head scarves on Wednesdays as a symbol of resistance. Apparently the dudes in charge didn't like that.

Is this related to the protests that are happening right now? Or is this a seperate issue that I'm confusing with what is an economic uprising?

 

[Johnnypenso]

Really not sure if this is the correct thread, but I'm interested in any news stories that people have regarding the demonstrations and protests in Iran, which started 28 Dec 2017.

So far, I can barely find any coverage on mainstream media outlets. CBC.ca has all of 2 articles, 1 about pro-regime counter protests, and 1 featuring the quotes of the Iranian leadership blaming "enemies" for insisting the protests. CNN.com has 1 article that I could find. Neither website has anything about Iran on its front page.

Where I have been getting news is twitter, where I've seen dozens of videos of massive, massive street protests, rivalling what we saw in Egypt a few years ago. From what I can gather from twitter, part of what the protestor and are pissed about is the coverage and representation they have received from western media.

I'm no Trump supporter, but from what I can gather, Trump and Israeli leadership are the only 2 world governments to make a stance, siding with the Iranian people. So far, Trudeau and Corbin have remained silent on the situation.

I'm not looking to take a stance, I'm just looking for more info. Anyone with info about what is actually happening, and why, would be greatly appreciated.

It may have been sparked by economic woes but it's turned into much more than that. Protesters are being filmed shouting, "Death to Khamenei”, “Mullahs get lost”, “No more Islamic Republic”, “Clerics return us our country.” ...and more. You can say stuff like that here and you might get spit on or punched but it could have more serious consequences in Iran. The fact that people are willing to publicly make those statements is telling. The Revolutionary Guard has declared the protests over while claiming the main troublemakers have been arrested. We'll have to wait and see how long that lasts. I suspect it won't end so easily.

 

[twitcher]

This seems to be a decent summary of political the history of Iran for the last 100ish years.


The video does have a bit of an anti-socialist vibe (and I know the channel it comes from is more libertarian / right leaning), so if there's another "version" of Iran's history from "the other side", I'd be interested in hearing/seeing that.

Probably no one in the world lusts more for the destruction of the current (Shia) regime in Iran than Trump, Netanyahu and the House of Saud. If the Iranian people are truly mounting a revolution on their own, well how lucky is that!

Ron Paul sees CIA fngerprints. And if they don't want it in the NY Times, it likely won't be printed.
https://www.antiwar.com/blog/2018/01/02/ron-paul-on-iran-protests-cia-fingerprints/

http://news.antiwar.com/2018/01/02/dozens-killed-as-iran-protests-continue-to-grow/
The protests began, now nearly a week ago, as economic ones, with Iranians expressing growing disquiet about the rising inflation and unemployment rates in the country, having expected the nuclear deal and removal of sanctions to create more immediate economic opportunities.

Violent crackdowns on these rallies quickly turned things political, and even as moderate reformists like President Rouhani sought to defend the right for peaceful protest, security forces seemed to be more aggressive in crackdowns.

Iranian Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei has increasingly sought to present the protests as the result of foreign enemies trying to foment unrest, saying they are using “money, weapons, politics, and security apparatus” to create problems in Iran.

Edit:
Trump, with "perfect moral clarity", eggs on regime change in Iran. The liberal US media, with even greater and more perfect (if differing) moral clarity, sits on its hands.

One thing is for certain, it doesn't feel like too many people on the outside are being genuine, more like people are looking how to spin it.

It really does feel like the progressive, left leaning western media has their hands tied. For one, they like to push the narrative that Islamic garb is liberating for women, like this Nike Hijab

So seeing Iranian women tear their's off and stomp on them is bad for Nike's business. Two, their political allegiance is to the Democrates, who support the current Iranian government. Three, the Dems, Hollywood, and social media elite were very quick to claim credit for the first Arab Spring - which looking back, hasn't exactly worked out well for them. Judging by some of the videos I've seen, from the one about Iran's history and the British/American involvement, to some of the street protests where people are supposedly condemning western media; like the video I linked says, the Iranian people aren't going to be quick to forget. Where Trump sees an opportunity to make a quick headline today, I think the Dems see a long term problem, and by limiting its exposure in mainstream media, maybe it'll just go away. Four, and this is tinfoil hat time, who really knows how much money the progressive media and Hollywood get from foreign investors, like oh I dunno, rich Iranian dictators. Pure speculation, but I don't think it's a massive stretch.



Regarding Ron Paul's comments regarding the CIA. To be clear, to dismiss CIA involvement would be poor judgement, based on how much evidence there is to show that the CIA has in fact participated in overthrowing governments (from South America to....Iran). That said, I do find the situation a little bit amusing for the following reason.

Isn't the CIA somehow involved in the Russian's alleged involvement in Trump's election? Either they helped the Russians, or they failed to stop the Russians? One of the two, either way.

So if the CIA was complicit in the Russians getting Trump elected...then Trump and the CIA are just Putin's Puppets (nice ring to that). In which case, it's really Putin and the KGB that are overthrowing the Iranian government, not Trump and the CIA.

If the CIA failed to stop Russian influence in Trump's election....then what are we saying about the CIA here. That they're not good enough to stop the Russians, but they're good enough to fool the Iranians? Doesn't that indicate a rather low opinion of the intellectual capacity of the Iranian people, that they could be duped by an organization as incompetent as the CIA?

 

[twitcher]

Edit: double post

 

[Dotini]

Doesn't that indicate a rather low opinion of the intellectual capacity of the Iranian people, that they could be duped by an organization as incompetent as the CIA?

Random thoughts:

We have been in business for 200 some years. The Iranians for at least 3000, likely a lot more. They are not Arabs. I have to believe they have a future as well as a past.

IMO, the CIA is an all-too human organization. It exists to preserve itself. They allowed their own president (JFK) to be killed by assassins because he threatened them. So their agenda is a complicated one.

 

[twitcher]

So, I've done some more looking.

Still very little on major media outlets in North America. CNN's and CBC's main stories are about "counter protests to reaffirm the people's commitment to the regime." From what I've gathered off Twitter, people in Iran are saying those "counter protests" are high-school students and factory workers being forced to demonstrate by the government. How I go about verifying that, other than believing this person or that person on twitter, I'm not sure.

I have yet to see any statement made by the world's favourite male feminist, Justine Trudeau. Women's Rights does seem to be a genuine aspect of the movement, rejection of the religious subjugation of women at the very least, so it's odd that the Canadian PM wouldn't have something to say. This movement, started by Iranian journalist and female rights activist Masih Alinejad, is actually called - get this - White Wednesday Sorry, I'm all for the movement, but I love the irony here.

Can you imagine western feminists supporting a movement called "White Wednesday". That must really get their knickers in a knot

In searching for anything the PM said, I came across this article from the National Post, which kind of outlines most of what's happened in the last week.
https://www.google.ca/amp/nationalp...cused-of-staying-mute-about-iran-protests/amp



I did come across one guy, Alireza Nader, a Senior Policy Expert at the RAND Corperation (a supposed non-profit....is a non-profit corporation an oxymoron?) who at the least is gathering and sharing info, as well as translating things into English. He put this list of his thoughts together

Some thoughts on #IranUprising
1. It did not start in Tehran, but Mashhad, and spread like wild fire.
2. It appears to be entirely spontaneous and as far as I can tell, leaderless.
3. There are many causes: the abysmal economy, corruption, graft,
4. social repression, religious intolerance, foreign adventures. But one thing is clear: Iranians have had enough.
5. It has completely ignored the reform movement.
6. It is directed against the ENTIRE Iranian political establishment, even President Rouhani.
7. It is no longer peaceful. Iranians have attacked government offices, the security forces, Revolutionary Guards bases, and symbols associated with the Islamic Republic.
8. Khamenei is the focus of public anger. His silence is deafening.
9. The U.S. response is largely irrelevant.
10. But what matters is that modes of communication,
especially Telegram, be kept open. The U.S. gov can play a role in this regard, perhaps.

Last thing, and I've maybe found this the most bizarre of all, was this exchange between reporters and UN spokesman regarding Iran.



If it wasn't for Twitter, I wouldn't even know these protests were happening....and the response from that UN spokesman seems to sum up the mainstream coverage of this whole event, "Umm, Uhh, ya, well, we're working on establishing a contact, and we'll inform you if we learn anything significant."

 

[Johnnypenso]

Last thing, and I've maybe found this the most bizarre of all, was this exchange between reporters and UN spokesman regarding Iran.



If it wasn't for Twitter, I wouldn't even know these protests were happening....and the response from that UN spokesman seems to sum up the mainstream coverage of this whole event, "Umm, Uhh, ya, well, we're working on establishing a contact, and we'll inform you if we learn anything significant."

I read that statement in a piece earlier today. The U.N. is a joke. Given the potentially massive historical significance of these events and the ramifications it could have in the Middle East, their response is about as limp as can be so far.

 

[Rage Racer]

Those in Europe who support the uprising in Iran - do they need another massive flow of refugees or something? The 🤬 in Syria started just like this.

Reportedly, the protests have stopped. It's not easy to overthrow a regime in a country that has no US embassy...

So if the CIA was complicit in the Russians getting Trump elected...then Trump and the CIA are just Putin's Puppets (nice ring to that). In which case, it's really Putin and the KGB that are overthrowing the Iranian government, not Trump and the CIA.

 

[twitcher]

From some more reading I've done today, it seems that most western media (save Fox ), as well as Al Jezeera, are going with the narrative that the demonstrations were organized by outside forces, namely a coilition of Zionist Jews (Mossad providing the expertise and legwork), Saudi Sunnis (they payed for all this), and Trump (it's an easy 'win' for him).

True or not, it does seem like it's increasingly easy these days to blame anything and everything on "foreign intelligence agencies".

Furthermore, just an angle I find interesting. Didn't Ghadafi in Libya cry the same thing before they shot him in the streets? Pretty sure he claimed the revolutionaries were influenced by outside forces (and in some cases were foreign mititias). So if CNN encouraged us to believe that Ghadafi was lying, why should I believe them when the current Irani administration is making the same claims.

 

[JacksHerer]

Why would you believe anything you don't see with your own eyes (and I don't mean see on telly lol)

All western media get their news from the same 'box of news articles', journalists no longer do any investigation themselves, they get handed the articles. Al Jezeera is western media too.

If you want to be interested in any news other than your local area news - which you may be able to fact check, you need to read multiple sources of base information ie RT News, Crosstalk, Redacted Tonight etc vs western MSM at the very least.

If you already know about historic facts of government agencies interfering abroad due to freedom of information reports then its fair to assume they are still at it x100.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you want to be interested in any news other than your local area news - which you may be able to fact check...

What makes local news fact-checkable and wider news uncheckable?

you need to read multiple sources of base information ie RT News

You have to be kidding. Why not Daily Mail and National Thingy while we're at it? What point are you making?

western MSM

Oh, I see. Okay.

 

[twitcher]

Why would you believe anything you don't see with your own eyes (and I don't mean see on telly lol)

All western media get their news from the same 'box of news articles', journalists no longer do any investigation themselves, they get handed the articles. Al Jezeera is western media too.

If you want to be interested in any news other than your local area news - which you may be able to fact check, you need to read multiple sources of base information ie RT News, Crosstalk, Redacted Tonight etc vs western MSM at the very least.

If you already know about historic facts of government agencies interfering abroad due to freedom of information reports then its fair to assume they are still at it x100.

I agree that it's important to read news stories from multiple angles, and I am aware that AJ is basically CNN Middle Eastern Desk. That said, I have a tough time lumping RT in as a credible news source. At best, I can consider them on the level of Fox. Sometimes it's useful to see what they're talking about, same reason I sometimes watch the Breakfast Club on I-Heart-Radio's Power 105.1. Doesn't mean I really lend much credibility to what they're saying.

What makes local news fact-checkable and wider news uncheckable?



You have to be kidding. Why not Daily Mail and National Thingy while we're at it? What point are you making?



Oh, I see. Okay.

like I said, I kind of agree and disagree with Jack...but what point are you making?

 

[JacksHerer]

Western MSM is a lot quicker to type than listing all allied news agencies that have the same agenda and the same 'box of articles'. I wasn't using it as a derogatory term if thats what got your panties in a twist.

I was trying to point out the need to at least read two sides of a story and use your own opinion from your experiences and knowledge.

 

[TenEightyOne]

what point are you making?

Some of his claims seemed extreme. Particularly when he grouped all journalists together and said they:

* get their news from the same 'box of news articles'
* no longer do any investigation themselves

and that

* they get handed the articles.

His reply biffled about panties but had little in the way of sources to back up his claims or to answer why, given his wider claims, local news is more believable than other sorts.

 

[JacksHerer]

If you aren't aware of those things then you should expand your information sources. I don't have the time or patience to dig up links or insert audio from retired journalists who are free to say how it is nowadays.

I don't care anymore about discussing this sort of stuff on the internet, people either don't understand or they take offence or think I have some agenda. I got notified of this thread from 5 years ago, I've unwatched it now.

Cya

 

[twitcher]

If you aren't aware of those things then you should expand your information sources. I don't have the time or patience to dig up links or insert audio from retired journalists who are free to say how it is nowadays.

I don't care anymore about discussing this sort of stuff on the internet, people either don't understand or they take offence or think I have some agenda. I got notified of this thread from 5 years ago, I've unwatched it now.

Cya

And your, "I don't have time to deal with you uninformed peasants" is a better attitude? The whole reason I revived this thread was to learn more. If you have some gold mine of knowledge that would help people better understand the way the media operates, wouldn't you say it's in everyone's best interest that you share that info?

Anyways, since you're on the internet but have said you don't want to talk to people about stuff on the internet (cause we our dum?), I guess all I can say is thanks for the "enlightenment".

 

[mustafur]

Why is Iran being talked about in a thread about Arab Spring.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Why is Iran being talked about in a thread about Arab Spring.

It's next door and late winter