Assetto Corsa vs. PCars 2 vs GTS: Physics, FFB

[ThaFlash_LA]

I have the 4 major games on consoles only, and the comparison between them is very interesting (to me at least).

I can jump back and forth between AC (Xbox) and PC2 (PS4). A couple laps and I’m putting up similar times on the same car/track comparison. PC2 feels a bit more unstable, but I think that’s just because I haven’t figured out ffb settings I like, while AC on default feels great to drive. I’m still very green on both.

What’s really interesting between GTS and Forza for me is the “choices” they’ve made. GTS seems to love trail braking, you can stay on the brake seemingly forever going into and through a corner. Conversely, Forza hates trail braking; looking at the brake pedal mid corner makes me spin. AC and PC2 are a bit in the middle. Coming from the former games, I was really nervous for my first race at Brands Hatch, but it went pretty uneventfully in PC2, even in snow.

The oddest choice I’ve witnessed is mid engine cars in Forza with the engine noise coming from the front speakers.

I need to figure out my PC2 ffb settings. Right now, it seems like it’s making a choice between giving steering weight or road feel. It was kind of ok on the M6, but just wonky on the Z4.

The other interesting observation for me: it’s easier for me to learn a track on AC and PC2. I think because I can drive the tracks with cars that feel like cars, I can push harder and harder knowing what to expect.

I still have to use at least the braking line in forza and I have by far the most amount of time in that game. But I love the cone markers in GT, simple and genius.

It’s been very fun and interesting because my last racing game was GT5, and I got a wheel with forza 7 this year, so I’m basically learning everything at the same time, and my frame of reference is just my real life driving experience.

 

[Outspacer]

in PC2 however I run Raw so it will be quite different.

Do you have some favourite car / track combos that would show off Raw to its best?

 

[Scaff]

Do you have some favourite car / track combos that would show off Raw to its best?

Formula Rookie at Oulton Park (international) or any GT car at Brands Hatch GP.

 

[ALB123]

I have the 4 major games on consoles only, and the comparison between them is very interesting (to me at least).

I can jump back and forth between AC (Xbox) and PC2 (PS4). A couple laps and I’m putting up similar times on the same car/track comparison. PC2 feels a bit more unstable, but I think that’s just because I haven’t figured out ffb settings I like, while AC on default feels great to drive. I’m still very green on both.

What’s really interesting between GTS and Forza for me is the “choices” they’ve made. GTS seems to love trail braking, you can stay on the brake seemingly forever going into and through a corner. Conversely, Forza hates trail braking; looking at the brake pedal mid corner makes me spin. AC and PC2 are a bit in the middle. Coming from the former games, I was really nervous for my first race at Brands Hatch, but it went pretty uneventfully in PC2, even in snow.

Interesting. When I switched to AC from GT6 I had a hell of a time trying to trail brake. I'm not saying I was Johnny Racecar with GT6, but I just found it much easier. Does GTSport still use that 0-10 F 0-10 B system of setting the brakes? I never fully understood what that was...I just got used to how things felt with a certain number and that was that. Kind of like how AC will sometimes use 1-5 for an anti-roll bar, for instance, instead of the actual force of the ARB. That's a whole different complaint of mine about AC.

 

[ThaFlash_LA]

I never played GT6. I haven’t gone into tuning on sport, but in the car you adjust brake balance and it’s the 1-5 sort of system. It’s been a week or so since I played and all the huds are blurring into my memory now.

 

[Georgeagea]

What’s really interesting between GTS and Forza for me is the “choices” they’ve made. GTS seems to love trail braking, you can stay on the brake seemingly forever going into and through a corner.

I've never played any Forza game while GTS is my 1st ever GT game.

And that's the first thing I noticed when I tried GTS for the 1st time! The braking in this game is ridiculous! And it's kinda understandable to me because it's not a hardcore sim like AC or PC2. Braking in real life is probably the hardest thing to master and they have toned it down too much in GTS!
I'm a mediocre/average sim racer and driving new cars in AC and PC2 will make me suffer: wrong braking points, lockups, a lot of going wide on the track, etc... GTS is relatively like a game compared to AC and PC2 in that regard! I feel I can drive easily any car and track combination and master it in a couple of laps. Granted I'm not as fast as the top guys (not even close) but in terms of drive-ability and ease of use and staying on the track, it's no contest!
I remember driving that Hyundai they gave me at the start of GTS. I started to brake way too early, just as a force of habit coming from AC and PC2, thinking it's similar, and the car nearly stopped instantly! So I kept delaying my braking point until it really felt silly to me and not even remotely challenging anymore!

Another thing I noticed in GTS is the downshifting! Correct me if I'm wrong, but downshifting felt so dumb! I could literally downshift from 5th to 1st on a straight while pedal to the metal without braking even! No engine damage, no transmission damage, no downshift protection! I honestly don't know if it was because it was a single player game, so maybe damage was turned off, but even then it felt silly, so silly! I should try it sometime online in a full damage game and see how it goes!

 

[Scaff]

I've never played any Forza game while GTS is my 1st ever GT game.

And that's the first thing I noticed when I tried GTS for the 1st time! The braking in this game is ridiculous! And it's kinda understandable to me because it's not a hardcore sim like AC or PC2. Braking in real life is probably the hardest thing to master and they have toned it down too much in GTS!
I'm a mediocre/average sim racer and driving new cars in AC and PC2 will make me suffer: wrong braking points, lockups, a lot of going wide on the track, etc... GTS is relatively like a game compared to AC and PC2 in that regard! I feel I can drive easily any car and track combination and master it in a couple of laps. Granted I'm not as fast as the top guys (not even close) but in terms of drive-ability and ease of use and staying on the track, it's no contest!
I remember driving that Hyundai they gave me at the start of GTS. I started to brake way too early, just as a force of habit coming from AC and PC2, thinking it's similar, and the car nearly stopped instantly! So I kept delaying my braking point until it really felt silly to me and not even remotely challenging anymore!

Another thing I noticed in GTS is the downshifting! Correct me if I'm wrong, but downshifting felt so dumb! I could literally downshift from 5th to 1st on a straight while pedal to the metal without braking even! No engine damage, no transmission damage, no downshift protection! I honestly don't know if it was because it was a single player game, so maybe damage was turned of, but even then it felt silly, so silly! I should try it sometime online in a full damage game and see how it goes!

Agree 100% the braking is oversimplify, which is why trail-braking is so easy (when in reality its a real skill to develop and master), youa re also right in regard to downshifts, its impossible to get one wrong (unless you use a h-pattern and clutch - then its just broken) and not only will you never damage the drivetrain, but you also will almost never destabilise the car.

You are totally right that braking and downshifting are really challenging skills to master and when the car is potentially at its most unstable, very little of which comes across in GT.

I've also found in GTS that you don't need to reduce brake force as downforce reduces in the LMP1 cars at all (and to a naturally lesser degree in the GT3 cars).

My view is that its part accessibility and part player flattery, its wrong from a physics point of view, but its not arguably 'wrong' from a game point of view.

Funnily enough some of this is covered in my last video and some of its covered in my new one:

Head 2 Head - AC & GTS - Porsche 919 2016 - Nurburgring GP

 

[Georgeagea]

Exactly! But it blows my mind how they advertise it as "The real driving simulator"! I mean no one is stupid enough to believe that! We know some little driving principles and we know how stuff should work to some extent!
Call it "Best driving game" and we might approve with that!
PC2 or AC call themselves "The real driving simulator" and we can argue with that, but GTS! Come on!

Don't get me wrong, I love the game and play it! But that's what it is to me! A "game"! I keep the term "sim" for AC and PC2.

 

[Whitestar]

Actually, Kunos calls AC "your racing simulator"

 

[dissectional1]

I've never played any Forza game while GTS is my 1st ever GT game.

And that's the first thing I noticed when I tried GTS for the 1st time! The braking in this game is ridiculous! And it's kinda understandable to me because it's not a hardcore sim like AC or PC2. Braking in real life is probably the hardest thing to master and they have toned it down too much in GTS!
I'm a mediocre/average sim racer and driving new cars in AC and PC2 will make me suffer: wrong braking points, lockups, a lot of going wide on the track, etc... GTS is relatively like a game compared to AC and PC2 in that regard! I feel I can drive easily any car and track combination and master it in a couple of laps. Granted I'm not as fast as the top guys (not even close) but in terms of drive-ability and ease of use and staying on the track, it's no contest!
I remember driving that Hyundai they gave me at the start of GTS. I started to brake way too early, just as a force of habit coming from AC and PC2, thinking it's similar, and the car nearly stopped instantly! So I kept delaying my braking point until it really felt silly to me and not even remotely challenging anymore!

Another thing I noticed in GTS is the downshifting! Correct me if I'm wrong, but downshifting felt so dumb! I could literally downshift from 5th to 1st on a straight while pedal to the metal without braking even! No engine damage, no transmission damage, no downshift protection! I honestly don't know if it was because it was a single player game, so maybe damage was turned off, but even then it felt silly, so silly! I should try it sometime online in a full damage game and see how it goes!

I can't argue with you in regards of considering any GT a game because that's what they are. Now with that in mind I haven't played GTS and probably won't because I'm yet to see a good enough reason to justify buying a PS4 and I've owned just about all of the previous Playstations released. Continuing with this mindset a quick explanation to you since the first GT you've played is Sport. When Gran Turismo was launched back in 1998 it was as realistic as a racing game could get, hence the slogan "The Real Driving Simulator", although it never was an actual simulator... It's supposed to be a game. I've seen a lot of people saying PC isn't realy a sim either whereas others swear by it. Forza has things neither GT game ever had such as the option of having a manual clutch (not just gear shifts but an actual clutch button) but it's in the same genre as GT. I'm one of those guys who don't even consider Sport worthy of bearing the GT name but that's another topic (let's just say despite not being a simulator GT has redefined a genre)

Overall I'd say for the driving, I'd choose AC (on pc - don't know about the console versions) but for the part of relaxing and just having wreckless fun I'd either fire up any old GT (5 or 6 on the PS3 or 3 or 4 on the PS2 or GT1 or 2 on any emulator) or one of the latest Forza games that are available for windows 10.

 

[ThaFlash_LA]

GT seems to have gone back and forth with how much they care about balance. I seem to recall GT5 feeling more twitchy. And forza was definitely not always this twitchy. Regardless, as you guys have stated, they’re games, it’s not right or wrong, it’s just a choice they decided to make.

I enjoy them all, and the only difficulty they give me is going back and forth between the games. It’s easier for me to mix in forza with the sims because I need to be more cautious in that game, while GT makes me change my thinking about corners.

And the best, “just get in and drive” experience for me is the BMW 235 in AC. It’s just such sublime. Easy to drive, easy to push, not too fast, and a well made cockpit model.

 

[Georgeagea]

And the best, “just get in and drive” experience for me is the BMW 235 in AC. It’s just such sublime. Easy to drive, easy to push, not too fast, and a well made cockpit model.

OMG Probably my fav car in the game! I love everything about that car!

 

[Fredzy]

OMG Probably my fav car in the game! I love everything about that car!

I need to take it for a spin, haven't spent much time in any BMW lately.

Yesterday I took the 911 Carrera S to Vallelunga, intent on finally mastering the track. I hadn't driven the car since early last year but recall really enjoying it, very session friendly. Meanwhile, someone on the forums commented how much it must suck for console people being stuck with "a bunch of crappy Italian tracks" or something like that. I thought about that, and while I definitely dislike Monza and Magione, I do like Imola and Mugello and haven't spent enough time at Vallelunga to say. I never enjoyed it, but I felt that way about Nurb GP at one time, and now that I know it well it's one of my favorite tracks.

So now I can confidently add Vallelunga to the 'dislike' column. Also, the 911 was an understeering maniac. Thinking the relentless tedium of that track might have been amplifying it, I took it to Nords and was frustrated with it there also. It's like the front wheels just come off the ground under power. I must have been really tip-toeing in it before that I didn't notice it.

 

[ThaFlash_LA]

I haven’t tried any of the Porsche’s, but from my experience with a 997 911CS, it’s a bit scary until that spoiler comes up. Good at slow corners, great at fast turns, and scary when you’re going fast enough to really screw up, but slow enough that you’re not getting downforce help.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Interesting. When I switched to AC from GT6 I had a hell of a time trying to trail brake. I'm not saying I was Johnny Racecar with GT6, but I just found it much easier. Does GTSport still use that 0-10 F 0-10 B system of setting the brakes? I never fully understood what that was...I just got used to how things felt with a certain number and that was that. Kind of like how AC will sometimes use 1-5 for an anti-roll bar, for instance, instead of the actual force of the ARB. That's a whole different complaint of mine about AC.

Braking was the toughest transition for me when moving from GT6 to AC on the pc. In GT braking with ABS was like adding stability control in that you could pretty much bury the brake pedal with most cars and there would be very little happening most of the time. You just didn't get that feeling of weight transfer to the front and all that comes with it, including dire consequences if you mis-time your turn in point relative to your braking levels, front grip and the track surface. I found in AC the cars were much more dynamic, responding exponentially to my inputs, or so it seemed at the time. . You could change the car behaviour at turn in with just a little stab of the brakes or varying your timing between brake pressure, brake release and turn in point, allowing you to respond to your imperfect corner entries in a more realistic and dynamic fashion. The ability to make small adjustments on the fly and really feel it, is really huge difference between GT and AC IMO.

 

[DeadHero]

I need to take it for a spin, haven't spent much time in any BMW lately.

Yesterday I took the 911 Carrera S to Vallelunga, intent on finally mastering the track. I hadn't driven the car since early last year but recall really enjoying it, very session friendly. Meanwhile, someone on the forums commented how much it must suck for console people being stuck with "a bunch of crappy Italian tracks" or something like that. I thought about that, and while I definitely dislike Monza and Magione, I do like Imola and Mugello and haven't spent enough time at Vallelunga to say. I never enjoyed it, but I felt that way about Nurb GP at one time, and now that I know it well it's one of my favorite tracks.

So now I can confidently add Vallelunga to the 'dislike' column. Also, the 911 was an understeering maniac. Thinking the relentless tedium of that track might have been amplifying it, I took it to Nords and was frustrated with it there also. It's like the front wheels just come off the ground under power. I must have been really tip-toeing in it before that I didn't notice it.

For me Vallelunga is one of the best tracks in AC, probably my favourite one. Taking the first corner (Curvone) flat out while kissing the curbs feels amazing. And if you want to love Monza, take the C9 LM there and time will fly by!

Exactly! But it blows my mind how they advertise it as "The real driving simulator"! I mean no one is stupid enough to believe that! We know some little driving principles and we know how stuff should work to some extent!
Call it "Best driving game" and we might approve with that!
PC2 or AC call themselves "The real driving simulator" and we can argue with that, but GTS! Come on!

Don't get me wrong, I love the game and play it! But that's what it is to me! A "game"! I keep the term "sim" for AC and PC2.

You would probably be surprised to hear that some people still play the "GT Academy" card to say that It's a true sim and better than anything else on the market, when the the academy's premise was about getting lots of people together and find those who had basic skills and persistence in that pool.

 

[Fredzy]

For me Vallelunga is one of the best tracks in AC, probably my favourite one. Taking the first corner (Curvone) flat out while kissing the curbs feels amazing. And if you want to love Monza, take the C9 LM there and time will fly by!

You're right, the first few turns are great! And the last couple. All of what's in between is too tedious for me. One hairpin per 5km of track, please!

Monza is sort of the opposite of Vallelunga in that you're just sitting in the car with your foot to the floor all day, with the occasional huge deceleration for an abrupt turn. The only turns I look forward to are Ascari and Parabolica. T6/7 Lesmo are challenging, and T7 can be especially rewarding to nail but usually they frustrate me

 

[BrandonW77]

Monza is sort of the opposite of Vallelunga in that you're just sitting in the car with your foot to the floor all day, with the occasional huge deceleration for an abrupt turn. The only turns I look forward to are Ascari and Parabolica. T6/7 Lesmo are challenging, and T7 can be especially rewarding to nail but usually they frustrate me

IMO what people don't realize is that there's a big difference between driving on a track and racing on a track. A track that's fun to drive isn't necessarily great for racing and vice versa. Monza is boring as hell to hot lap but it's one of my favorite places to race, thanks to all the long straights there's a lot of drafting which tends to keep the pack closer together and make overtaking a little easier, and almost every turn is an overtaking opportunity. Same with Red Bull Ring, pretty boring to hot lap but usually great fun to race at with lots of chances for overtaking. Then you have tracks like the Nords or Barcelona that are great fun to hot lap but usually not great for racing with very little overtaking. Vallelunga is a place that's not very fun to hot lap but usually the racing is pretty good with plenty of overtaking (highly dependent on the car class though).

 

[Fredzy]

IMO what people don't realize is that there's a big difference between driving on a track and racing on a track. A track that's fun to drive isn't necessarily great for racing and vice versa.

Great points, I agree. I've had pretty good races at Monza when people weren't egregiously cutting corners

Thinking about this makes me really wish we had Tsukuba. Well, I'm sure you have it on PC

 

[DeadHero]

Monza is sort of the opposite of Vallelunga in that you're just sitting in the car with your foot to the floor all day

That's why they call it the temple of speed. Sure, It's not Le Mans, where those low-drag prototypes would feel at home, but it's better than nothing. The '66 layout with the north/south high-speed bankings is even faster and scarier. The only thing missing in my opinion is the layout without the 1st chicane, where the WEC teams test their LM variants.

 

[dissectional1]

Braking was the toughest transition for me when moving from GT6 to AC on the pc. In GT braking with ABS was like adding stability control in that you could pretty much bury the brake pedal with most cars and there would be very little happening most of the time. You just didn't get that feeling of weight transfer to the front and all that comes with it, including dire consequences if you mis-time your turn in point relative to your braking levels, front grip and the track surface. I found in AC the cars were much more dynamic, responding exponentially to my inputs, or so it seemed at the time. . You could change the car behaviour at turn in with just a little stab of the brakes or varying your timing between brake pressure, brake release and turn in point, allowing you to respond to your imperfect corner entries in a more realistic and dynamic fashion. The ability to make small adjustments on the fly and really feel it, is really huge difference between GT and AC IMO.

Aside from the stability in GT6 while braking vs AC, to me one of the hugest differences are the breaking distances... I haven't touched GT6 that much at all, since I started playing AC on the pc over 2 years ago, but I still can't shake the feeling that in GT6 you could get away with much shorter breaking distances (on a lot of situations) and also you can't just toss cars around and get away with it as easily (or at all) in AC vs GT6

 

[Cote Dazur]

Thinking about this makes me really wish we had Tsukuba. Well, I'm sure you have it on PC

 

[BrandonW77]

Great points, I agree. I've had pretty good races at Monza when people weren't egregiously cutting corners

Thinking about this makes me really wish we had Tsukuba. Well, I'm sure you have it on PC

We do but in my experience that's a pretty bad track for racing, the track is so short and tight and there aren't many good overtaking opportunities so people end up getting antsy and forcing the issue which usually ends in tears. Plus, it's basically just a bunch of hairpins. It can be fun in really slow cars where you can't force the issue very hard though.

 

[Fredzy]

We do but in my experience that's a pretty bad track for racing, the track is so short and tight and there aren't many good overtaking opportunities so people end up getting antsy and forcing the issue which usually ends in tears. Plus, it's basically just a bunch of hairpins. It can be fun in really slow cars where you can't force the issue very hard though.

For all of the reasons you don't like it for racing, I do! Mainly with 300hp class sports cars, it makes for some great street fights. For sure it is susceptible to dirty drivers though. I had many great GT6 quick match battles there.

I was a big fan of Best Motoring back in the mid-aughts so I'm probably biased by that, too.

 

[BrandonW77]

I was a big fan of Best Motoring back in the mid-aughts so I'm probably biased by that, too.

Seems a lot of people are. I've had lots of experiences at Tsukuba, mainly in Gran Turismo and some in AC, I can't say many of them were good. I used to like it until I realized the nature of the track causes people to lose their minds and drive like asshats, now I avoid it with anything faster than a Fiat 500.

 

[Lewis_Hamilton_]

Braking was the toughest transition for me when moving from GT6 to AC on the pc....

Aside from the stability in GT6 while braking vs AC, to me one of the hugest differences are the breaking distances...

I've been racing online in GT6 as much as my free time allows due to the servers shutting down soon. I fully agree with the entirety of both posts, not just the quoted pieces. Another thing, or shall I say issue, has been cropping up very apparently to me in GT and that is countersteering.

I can't explain this without it seeming like a douchey bragging post, which I'm not trying to do but here goes.
My regular room always comments about, up until recently anyway, how I just never make anything more than minor time loss mistakes and they never see me spin or wallop a barrier. This was at a time when GTs physics were well and truly baked into my brain. These days, I now have AC's physics baked into my brain (thank God), so when I go back to GT, every time it takes a couple of races to get re-accustomed and for the first few races, I'm questioned and laughed at as to whether I'm drunk, ill, or tired as they watch me begin to slide a bit, and then instantly warp factor 5 towards the opposing barriers.

Everytime it is the same thing catching me out. If the car is sliding and I go to correct it with countersteer, the tyres get this magical front end grip out of nowhere the instant you touch the wheel and off you go in that direction, rapidly. It takes a few times to remember that you don't really need to counter steer in GT at all, a dab or lift of throttle sorts out everything apparently.

 

[dissectional1]

I've been racing online in GT6 as much as my free time allows due to the servers shutting down soon. I fully agree with the entirety of both posts, not just the quoted pieces. Another thing, or shall I say issue, has been cropping up very apparently to me in GT and that is countersteering.

I can't explain this without it seeming like a douchey bragging post, which I'm not trying to do but here goes.
My regular room always comments about, up until recently anyway, how I just never make anything more than minor time loss mistakes and they never see me spin or wallop a barrier. This was at a time when GTs physics were well and truly baked into my brain. These days, I now have AC's physics baked into my brain (thank God), so when I go back to GT, every time it takes a couple of races to get re-accustomed and for the first few races, I'm questioned and laughed at as to whether I'm drunk, ill, or tired as they watch me begin to slide a bit, and then instantly warp factor 5 towards the opposing barriers.

Everytime it is the same thing catching me out. If the car is sliding and I go to correct it with countersteer, the tyres get this magical front end grip out of nowhere the instant you touch the wheel and off you go in that direction, rapidly. It takes a few times to remember that you don't really need to counter steer in GT at all, a dab or lift of throttle sorts out everything apparently.

I'm glad you've mentioned this, because the first thing that happens to me whenever I do end up loading GT6 after having AC's habits still present is I tend to spin cars around more than a couple times as if I was on some figure skating contest it's just bonkers

 

[Johnnypenso]

We do but in my experience that's a pretty bad track for racing, the track is so short and tight and there aren't many good overtaking opportunities so people end up getting antsy and forcing the issue which usually ends in tears. Plus, it's basically just a bunch of hairpins. It can be fun in really slow cars where you can't force the issue very hard though.

The thing I liked about Tsukuba was that it seemed like it was very easy to make mistakes there. The final tight hairpin before the backstraight was tough to get just right and if your opponent just in front of you messed up slightly you could do an over/under and set up an easy inside approach to the sweeper. The sweeper was also an easy place to mess up as people often went too deep or too slow which set up a mid-corner pass or a better run onto the front straight. Of course against skilled drivers who rarely made mistakes it was pretty much impossible to get by I do recall some good Cappuccino RM races there though.

 

[Fredzy]

These days, I now have AC's physics baked into my brain (thank God), so when I go back to GT, every time it takes a couple of races to get re-accustomed and for the first few races

This is one of the biggest pain factors for me in going back and forth between AC and GT. People are always like "we have all of these great racing games, why not play them all?" Free time aside, this is why. I don't want to spend any time re-learning how to drive at 10/10, tinkering with settings galore (more of a PCars thing) or tuning because the default tune is foolishly slow. Going from AC to GT isn't too bad, you're just a little slow at first. The other way around can be more problematic

 

[Georgeagea]

This is one of the biggest pain factors for me in going back and forth between AC and GT. People are always like "we have all of these great racing games, why not play them all?" Free time aside, this is why. I don't want to spend any time re-learning how to drive at 10/10, tinkering with settings galore (more of a PCars thing) or tuning because the default tune is foolishly slow. Going from AC to GT isn't too bad, you're just a little slow at first. The other way around can be more problematic

You're hinting at me going "we have all of these great racing games, why not play them all?"
But you're right. This is my idealistic thinking. Practically speaking I'm not able to play all of them consistently due to lack of free time.
And I agree that GTS is very different from AC and PC2. AC and PC2 are a bit similar in terms of driving techniques and how to approach things. GTS is a bit more arcadish, easier and way more forgiving.
I remember one of my non-simracing gamer friend told me "get one game and stick to it and get good at it". I was like "nah, that's not enjoyable! Those games are all awesome and I would like to drive every possible track and car and game!". While both of us have a good point of view, sometimes I think now that he wasn't too wrong after all!