Assetto Corsa vs. PCars 2 vs GTS: Physics, FFB

[Nielsen]

Does anyone know why PDI took a 15+ year old formula for success and threw it out the window in order to develop GT Sport? A company with the resources PDI has, I'm surprised they didn't opt for a Gran Turismo 7 to satisfy the millions of loyal fans and a Gran Turismo Sport to show that world that Gran Turismo can be "srs bsns" too exposing millions of casual players to the ultra competitive side of sim racing - e-sports with the FIA partnership and all that jazz. Forza manages to exist just fine with two titles on different ends of the spectrum, no?

I suspect Polyphony's resources could be the root of the problem. Kaz is the kind of developer who follows his vision like an artist, and successful artists have a shallow tendency to reinvent once bored with their creation. Moreover, Kaz clearly likes to be involved with prominent names in anything automotive. I wouldn't be surprised if the prestigious FIA partnership blinded judgement to the point where fan loyalty became an afterthought.

Forza isn't guided by anything remotely artistic. Motorsport and Horizon probably couldn't coexist if it wasn't for the overarching aggressive business model.

 

[Scaff]

Must be something strange with AC on PS4.

I have AC on the PS4 and with my T300 I have FFB set to 40 and that pretty accurate in terms of wheel weight in comparison to reality.

 

[ALB123]

This trimmed down GT Sport we got isn't the product of a deliberate focus on online competition and away from the classic "mass content overload" GT formula. They were never going to have enough content ready to make GT 7 proper. I think the work they did on Sport mode was absolutely necessary regardless, and I doubt its development pulled much resource away from car/track content development anyhow.

This is where my lack of video game knowledge (production and sales) really shows. I was under the impression that PDI & Sony were some unstoppable powerhouse entity and considering GTS came out almost 4 years after GT6, and considering Forza somehow squeezes a new iteration every 2 years, that PDI/Sony would be filled to the brim with assets for a GT7 title. I wouldn't expect 1,000 cars. That was the culmination of years worth of work...250 maybe? I don't know.

Does anyone know the current car count for PCars 2? Roughly...

 

[Scaff]

Does anyone know the current car count for PCars 2? Roughly...

Around 205 with DLC, however the variety within that is excellent.

Pretty much the entire GT3 grid is in place, same with GT4 and GTE. Good range of road cars, a lot of different Formula cars, most of the WRX grid, etc.

Honestly its the best car list on the PS4, combined with easily the largest track list.

 

[ALB123]

Around 205 with DLC, however the variety within that is excellent.

Pretty much the entire GT3 grid is in place, same with GT4 and GTE. Good range of road cars, a lot of different Formula cars, most of the WRX grid, etc.

Honestly its the best car list on the PS4, combined with easily the largest track list.

Yeah...I've peaked at the car list a few times, but not for several months, and I was so impressed to see care was taken in filling various race classes right off the bat. I think Assetto Corsa has an awesomely diverse car list...and that's what hurts AC's car list. It is too diverse. AC has a heck of a lot of "street cars" too, which I personally love, but I believe it adds to the thin racing list in many classes.

PCars 2 track list is insane.

 

[AbeFroman75]

I have AC on the PS4 and with my T300 I have FFB set to 40 and that pretty accurate in terms of wheel weight in comparison to reality.

I'm trying to find settings other people have used and it's pretty slim pickings. But I just ran some F12017 on Xbox and turning the effects off and leaving only FFB/Vibration on is damn near perfect.

Sucks because I really love the way AC plays even if the online/single player is lacking.

 

[Fredzy]

I was under the impression that PDI & Sony were some unstoppable powerhouse entity and considering GTS came out almost 4 years after GT6, and considering Forza somehow squeezes a new iteration every 2 years, that PDI/Sony would be filled to the brim with assets for a GT7 title.

You would think that, wouldn’t you? Makes sense. But no! I was sure that at least the premium models from GT5/6 could be recycled into Sport in short order. Nope. PD is hopelessly principled.

 

[DeadHero]

I think Assetto Corsa has an awesomely diverse car list...and that's what hurts AC's car list.

Agreed. That's the biggest issue for me. I can live without shiny graphics, features and other things, but too much diversity hurts racing.

This is where my lack of video game knowledge (production and sales) really shows. I was under the impression that PDI & Sony were some unstoppable powerhouse entity and considering GTS came out almost 4 years after GT6, and considering Forza somehow squeezes a new iteration every 2 years, that PDI/Sony would be filled to the brim with assets for a GT7 title. I wouldn't expect 1,000 cars. That was the culmination of years worth of work...250 maybe? I don't know.

I think Microsoft and Turn 10 were bound to take the "crown" when they decided to reboot the franchise (content wise) in 2013 and face the short-term consequences. From there on, the car count could only rise and year after year they're also bringing back models that were lost during the 360-XOne transition process. With more games and DLC sales they can also afford to be a licensing powerhouse and keep growing. They went from about 200 cars to 700 or so in four years. Don't know how many years PD will need to reach GT5/GT6 numbers.

You would think that, wouldn’t you? Makes sense. But no! I was sure that at least the premium models from GT5/6 could be recycled into Sport in short order. Nope. PD is hopelessly principled.

I thought about that too and, If I remember correctly, the 'premium' models were supposed to be future proof.

 

[Georgeagea]

GTS is following that trend as well, while PD don't put up numbers others have dug them out.

9% of players have completed more than ten races in Sport mode, and 6% more than 20.

http://www.kudosprime.com/gts/stats.php?stat_preset=sport_play_ratio

Yes true but that also shows the good single player side of GTS. Well at least for me and maybe some people that share my opinion.

Have to totally disagree. I know it's your opinion but it's wrong. Statistics show racing online with real people is far from the trend. I play far more offline than online. I hope other games do not follow GTS approach as it will surely the death touch of racing games.


I have to disagree on a personal level with this too. I find GTS single player mind numbingly boring and useless as a single player experience. It certainly could not be called awesome. If it were then GT league ( which is still garbage) would never have been added.

Technically, an opinion cannot be wrong. I didn't state a fact. I made sure to include "IMO" all the time It's a point of view.
For example, I can say (and I do believe in that) that VR is the future of sim racing and the best way to do sim racing.
You can show me the numbers that show that for example maybe less than 10% use it (or maybe even less if I stated that opinion 2 years ago) but that doesn't change my point of view. It's how I see things.

Yes single player mode is here to stay and won't go anywhere anytime soon, but I feel the trend and the future is in online racing. Devs know that and the trend of e-sports and advanced online systems (ratings, options, etc.) shows that.
Even if 10% play online in racing games, I am one of those. And if I'm to play in single player I'll probably choose GTS just due to those challenges, guides and other stuff; that unorthodox career mode.

In the end, to each his own. Let's all enjoy what we enjoy!

I can't remember the numbers, @BrandonW77 has mentioned them before - perhaps he'll remember. But Kunos stated the % of online play occurring with Assetto Corsa and it was ridiculously low from my expectations. The data Kunos pointed to is a bit older by now, but I don't know if I believe it's changed much. I think it's one of the reasons Assetto Corsa became labelled as the Hotlap Simulator. And it got that nickname before the catastrophe known as the console release with it's abysmal online system.

For me, I don't enjoy racing with AI too much coz it feels boring and repetitive. No human side of things. No stupid mistakes (I know PC2 has some) or big inconsistency (like I am ) or interaction or chat etc.
Online is also very annoying to me since most of the times I see myself going slower than top guys by like 2 to 8 sec (depending on game, track and car). It makes me wonder what I'm doing wrong. It makes me question lots of stuff and watch and learn.

Don't get me wrong; I still drive with AI when I want to learn a new track, the turning points, the braking points and ideal lines etc. but I just don't get too much satisfaction or fun when doing so.

 

[Scaff]

Yes true but that also shows the good single player side of GTS. Well at least for me and maybe some people that share my opinion.

Not really, as that assumes the remainder are still engrossed in the single player and the trophy stats don;t support that either.

Its terms of percentages GTS is following a similar trend to just about every racing title. Lots of people buy it, only a small percentage stick with it.

Nearly 50% have never bought a car, under 50% have more than 10 cars, only 30% have completed the driving school, 65% have not even reached Level 15!

When it comes to the livery editor and photomode its even lower, with 95% not ever having shared a livery and 98.9% taken less than 100 photos.

Now that's not a pop at GTS at all, these are the kind of numbers that almost every racing title sees, as most people buy it, play it a little bit and then shelve it or trade it.

 

[Georgeagea]

Not really, as that assumes the remainder are still engrossed in the single player and the trophy stats don;t support that either.

Its terms of percentages GTS is following a similar trend to just about every racing title. Lots of people buy it, only a small percentage stick with it.

Nearly 50% have never bought a car, under 50% have more than 10 cars, only 30% have completed the driving school, 65% have not even reached Level 15!

When it comes to the livery editor and photomode its even lower, with 95% not ever having shared a livery and 98.9% taken less than 100 photos.

Now that's not a pop at GTS at all, these are the kind of numbers that almost every racing title sees, as most people buy it, play it a little bit and then shelve it or trade it.

I've bought some cars.
Currently finishing the driving school and reached level 21.
However, I've never done any livery or photomode or anything like that.

And yeah it happens actually to most games even, not only racing.

EDIT: But if 10% of the total GTS population play online; while only like 30 to 40% of that total GTS population have kept the game; then that's more like 25 to 33% of the actual GTS dedicated players playing online; and that's not a small numbers. Could be one of the highest actually!

 

[Cote Dazur]

I've bought some cars.
Currently finishing the driving school and reached level 21.
However, I've never done any livery or photomode or anything like that.

And yeah it happens actually to most games even, not only racing.

EDIT: But if 10% of the total GTS population play online; while only like 30 to 40% of that total GTS population have kept the game; then that's more like 25 to 33% of the actual GTS dedicated players playing online; and that's not a small numbers. Could be one of the highest actually!

Good point % can be so misleading when not backed by actual numbers.

 

[Scaff]

EDIT: But if 10% of the total GTS population play online; while only like 30 to 40% of that total GTS population have kept the game; then that's more like 25 to 33% of the actual GTS dedicated players playing online; and that's not a small numbers. Could be one of the highest actually!

A point which would then apply to every other racing title around, as such what you have done is simply try and fudge the numbers in favour of GTS.

That the overall numbers are higher for GTS is not really a point that I have ever seen anyone dispute, however as far as percentages go AC, PC, PC2 all had similar values and F1 has higher ones (Dirt and WRC are slightly lower).

That GTS would not get a greater percentage staying online overall, but hoping that the larger install base would 'save the day' was something I predicted a while ago.

The only factor that I can see PD and Sony using in this regard is that historically for GT the 5% and 10% are much larger pools of people,

 

[Tired Tyres]

Yes true but that also shows the good single player side of GTS. Well at least for me and maybe some people that share my opinion.

Single player for me in AC from day 1 was quick race and race weekend. They are vastly better than anything in GT5/GT6 or GTS to me.

 

[fireball R18]

Around 205 with DLC, however the variety within that is excellent.

Pretty much the entire GT3 grid is in place, same with GT4 and GTE. Good range of road cars, a lot of different Formula cars, most of the WRX grid, etc.

Honestly its the best car list on the PS4, combined with easily the largest track list.

Largest track list but perhaps not the best. In comparison to other racing games tracks like the green hell are not as good designed as they are in AC e.g.. It's apity cause the track roster is phenomenal. Pro and cons the games have and this is something which make it more interesting, cause it's worth to play every of the named titles.

 

[Scaff]

Largest track list but perhaps not the best. In comparison to other racing games tracks like the green hell are not as good designed as they are in AC e.g.. It's apity cause the track roster is phenomenal. Pro and cons the games have and this is something which make it more interesting, cause it's worth to play every of the named titles.

Not as well designed?

You do know that the 'ring in AC, PC, GT and FM all use the exact same scan?

I've got both AC and PC2 and apart from the loss of the tourist circuit, no noticeable difference exists between the two. I can say this with quite a large degree of confidence having just spent the best part of two hours driving on it in both.

 

[fireball R18]

There are many differences if you take a closer look on it.

Yes I know all of the games uses a scan but does this tell us something about the result how realistic and precise things were realized in the game in fact? The scan is finally not the result, just the basic for design.

The NOS has plenty of different surfaces resulting in different grip levels, corners with much over- or understeering, important route markings and details along the track for braking or turning into and out of corners + important details for Ring-Fans as fences outgoing Brünnchen or the "Tüv Tower" on the start and finish straight , driving through the carousel you listen to the chassis how it is working and so on.

For me it feels to "flat" all in all. I've spent many many hours on that track in PCars2, AC, GTS. And I also know the Nordschleife in real life. AC comes closer to reality by far.
I don't want to say the track is very bad in PCars 2 but it's not the best interpretation for sure.

 

[Scaff]

There are many differences if you take a closer look on it.

Yes I know all of the games uses a scan but does this tell us something about the result how realistic and precise things were realized in the game in fact? The scan is finally not the result, just the basic for design.

The NOS has plenty of different surfaces resulting in different grip levels, corners with much over- or understeering, important route markings and details along the track for braking or turning into and out of corners + important details for Ring-Fans as fences outgoing Brünnchen or the "Tüv Tower" on the start and finish straight , driving through the carousel you listen to the chassis how it is working and so on.

For me it feels to "flat" all in all. I've spent many many hours on that track in PCars2, AC, GTS. And I also know the Nordschleife in real life. AC comes closer to reality by far.
I don't want to say the track is very bad in PCars 2 but it's not the best interpretation for sure.

In regard to track side details I would agree, but the track being flat in PC2?

You must have a different version of the game to me, I share your experiences in terms of games and have been to the 'ring myself and certainly don't share your interpretation of the differences between them in AC and PC2.

I've even been sat in my rig testing the two back to back as I type in this thread.

 

[Corsa]

I've permanently removed myself from the GT subforum before I receive the ban hammer for droning on about the physics.

I have tried and tried to get on with the driving in GT Sport to no avail. In my opinion it just does not accurately model how a car interacts with tarmac.

So, starting fresh with the two I do enjoy I'd have to agree with Scaff with regards to Nurburgring.
I just did two laps in PC2, then two with AC and can't find or feel any noticeable differences.
I do favor AC a bit, but SMS have done a fantastic job.

 

[ALB123]

As Scaff said, all the recent Nordschleife creations have been done with the same exact data...and this isn't the type of data that you should be interpreting. These are measurements and heights and altitudes, so they're all going to be probably within 1% of each other as far as physical differences go with the track. Track side objects, environment is a whole different ballgame.

The only reason I can think of that someone would drive the PC2 version and then the AC version and feel a measurable difference is probably all due to the differences in the Force Feedback system and the fact that I doubt any car shared between AC & PC2 have 100% identical setups.

 

[Georgeagea]

A point which would then apply to every other racing title around, as such what you have done is simply try and fudge the numbers in favour of GTS.

That the overall numbers are higher for GTS is not really a point that I have ever seen anyone dispute, however as far as percentages go AC, PC, PC2 all had similar values and F1 has higher ones (Dirt and WRC are slightly lower).

That GTS would not get a greater percentage staying online overall, but hoping that the larger install base would 'save the day' was something I predicted a while ago.

Yeah you might be right on this one! I honestly have no data about those games.

But, logically speaking, and forgetting numbers for a moment, it seems to me that GTS should be the most played racing online game on PS4 just due to its nature. It's a game that was highly criticized for lack of proper "standard" career mode. So, also logically speaking, most people that got this game and kept it are OK with that; which means that they'll most probably play online.
This isn't so true for AC or PC2 due to some proper "standard" career modes existing there.

EDIT: On another note, can someone please compare Mount Panorama on GTS and PC2?!
I have the games, but always forget to do so coz my playtime is limited recently.
All I know is that I raced once that track on PC2 and the track felt so blend.
And I raced it once on GTS and OMG how I was blown away with the details and the bumps in the road etc.
Can anyone confirm that?!

 

[ALB123]

I can't help you with that @Georgeagea, sorry. But, I would like to acknowledge just how good Polyphony Digital is at getting the most beautiful graphics out of their games. I'm not talking about that still picture photo mode, but regular in car racing and especially watching normal, out of the car camera replays.

 

[Scaff]

EDIT: On another note, can someone please compare Mount Panorama on GTS and PC2?!
I have the games, but always forget to do so coz my playtime is limited recently.
All I know is that I raced once that track on PC2 and the track felt so blend.
And I raced it once on GTS and OMG how I was blown away with the details and the bumps in the road etc.
Can anyone confirm that?!

Will do a Head 2 Head video for them.

 

[Georgeagea]

I can't help you with that @Georgeagea, sorry. But, I would like to acknowledge just how good Polyphony Digital is at getting the most beautiful graphics out of their games. I'm not talking about that still picture photo mode, but regular in car racing and especially watching normal, out of the car camera replays.

Yeah man I know!
This is my 1st ever GT game and I must say I'm impressed overall.
But in my comment above I was referring to track details and not graphics. Even on that front, I felt impressed.

 

[Scaff]

Yeah man I know!
This is my 1st ever GT game and I must say I'm impressed overall.
But in my comment above I was referring to track details and not graphics. Even on that front, I felt impressed.

Apart from the 'ring I'm not.

Brands Hatch GP is the worst offender in that regard, it's utterly flat and devoid of the camber in many places. The best example is Sheene Curves, which in reality is a massively challenging blind set of right handers, uphill with a lot of camber changes and bumps to deal with. AC and PC gets this, while in GTS it's just full and utterly unchallenging.

 

[Skython]

EDIT: On another note, can someone please compare Mount Panorama on GTS and PC2?!
I have the games, but always forget to do so coz my playtime is limited recently.
All I know is that I raced once that track on PC2 and the track felt so blend.
And I raced it once on GTS and OMG how I was blown away with the details and the bumps in the road etc.
Can anyone confirm that?!

The reason for that would be because it's not laserscanned in PC2, and if it is they've wasted a lot of money and effort. PC2 has some of the worst track quality out there in my opinion, they just look and feel wrong most of the time. They just don't seem to be able to model a straight road properly.

 

[Nielsen]

I agree with the sentiment that AC captures the Nordschleife better than the competition available on consoles. One does feel the same surface characteristics in PC2, but I think the slightly superior feel of the AC version comes down to how much detail Kunos has retained in the mesh, not to mention its highly detailed asphalt and curb textures. It just feels more delicious. The same can be said for most tracks included in both titles.

I haven't yet bothered to try the Nordschleife in GTS. The FM7 version is ok but it doesn't feel like a laser scan compared to what AC and PC2 offers.

I wish I could try the track in RaceRoom. I believe that game doesn't have many laser scans in general but all the tracks look so nicely crafted if you ask me. Besides, the RaceRoom track list shows that anything is possible by offering several circuits bigger developers usually don't. I'd buy them all if I could (no gaming PC).

 

[BrandonW77]

Not as well designed?

You do know that the 'ring in AC, PC, GT and FM all use the exact same scan?

I've got both AC and PC2 and apart from the loss of the tourist circuit, no noticeable difference exists between the two. I can say this with quite a large degree of confidence having just spent the best part of two hours driving on it in both.

That's not entirely accurate, the Nords in PC2 technically is not scanned. They took the track from PC1 which was not scanned, then compared it to the scan data and made adjustments based on that but didn't actually import the scan data (this is from the mouth of the Wookie himself). Lots of people have pointed out that there are areas that aren't quite accurate on the PC2 Nords.

 

[ALB123]

 

[Scaff]

That's not entirely accurate, the Nords in PC2 technically is not scanned. They took the track from PC1 which was not scanned, then compared it to the scan data and made adjustments based on that but didn't actually import the scan data (this is from the mouth of the Wookie himself). Lots of people have pointed out that there are areas that aren't quite accurate on the PC2 Nords.

That not what he said in this thread in Dec...

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...istic-the-pro-driver-check.371678/#post-12107

Now regardless of if its been directly compiled from the scan or an earlier version corrected from the scan, @IanBell claim is the same, that the track is accurate to the scan.

Now keep in mind that the detail on the development of the track from SMS is also a lot more comprehensive that we get from most developers, nor is the direct use of scan data a guarantee of accuracy (Brands Hatch in GTS for example). Nor does the lack of a scan mean something is inaccurate (Zolder in AC for example).