Attack on gas plant in France.

[ECGadget]

I like how you took all of 4 words from my post and took them out of context. You seem more than intelligent enough to know that my saying of "Islam was Spread by the Sword" was me starting to debunk a misconception, right? I also like how you ignored the rest of my post which provided clear evidence that what IS is doing is not Islam in the original way as you keep stating and then end it with an unrelated point, citing a reference to Wikipedia. Simply astonishing.

What I will say though, is that regardless of who or what IS are, they have to be stopped somehow and in someway and nobody we all stand in agreement here with that, I am sure.

 

[Carbonox]

Did it occur to you that, at the time of Islam's founding, the Middle East was incredibly unstable as warring groups prevented any form of stability from taking hold, and the early violence was a response to equally violent opposition that would have sought to tear down any rising power?

So, why are texts written during a time of political instability still considered law by great numbers of people, which don't only include ISIS?

 

[KSaiyu]

I like how you took all of 4 words from my post and took them out of context. You seem more than intelligent enough to know that my saying of "Islam was Spread by the Sword" was me starting to debunk a misconception, right? I also like how you ignored the rest of my post which provided clear evidence that what IS is doing is not Islam in the original way as you keep stating and then end it with an unrelated point, citing a reference to Wikipedia. Simply astonishing.

What I will say though, is that regardless of who or what IS are, they have to be stopped somehow and in someway and nobody we all stand in agreement here with that, I am sure.

Well it's good you recognise this because frankly I'm not seeing it on my social media feed (but again this is my social media feed - yours may be different and represent Muslim thought outside East/West London). The only message I've had come through, which is still not a "we as Muslims condemn ISIS" but rather that given what is happening Muslims should make the most of this Ramadan and they may not get another one, ending with the hope that "Allāh reunite us in Jannatul Firdaws without reckoning. Āmeen"

Would you mind explaining this for the benefit of GTP readers.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

So, why are texts written during a time of political instability still considered law by great numbers of people, which don't only include ISIS?

Because those texts served as spiritual and moral guidance at a time of instability. Given that modern idea of democracy - which is only a fairly recent invention - was slower to take hold in the Middle East compared to Europe, can you fault people for seeing some enduring value in those texts (before they perform any action in its name)? Before the French Revolution and the start of modern democracy, the Bible played a similar function in the lives of Christians.

 

[ECGadget]

Of course @KSaiyu, I am more than happy to explain this. So one thing you are right about is that there does not seem to be a worldwide public outcry by Muslims about IS. Maybe it is out of fear, considering that they seem to get everywhere or maybe it is for many reasons. What I will tell you though is that since all this started there have been more and more talks in the mosque that focus more on public relations and what Islam says about fighting and peace and compassion etc, than there has been about actual prayer. So in that sense, the Muslim communities are trying to keep people away from IS. There is a lot of lack of understanding too as to what is actually going on. I am generally more informed because I frequent forums such as these and get the feelings of people and understand that. My father himself used to be a Sergeant in NE London so he always saw things differently than the "average" Muslim because of his ties in the Met. Now at the moment it is Ramadhan yes, so I am sure you are aware that we in the UK are fasting approximately 20 hours a day. The biggest Du'a (Supplication) we make is to be sent to heaven without being asked about sins we committed, out of fear that we be thrown in hellfire etc. That being said, there are many problems WITHIN the Muslim communities themselves that cause this inherent lack of unity that maybe Muslims need to be able to stand up. Instead of bickering amongst themselves they need to look out there and see what is becoming of their religion. Lastly, with the media portrayal of Muslims, do you really blame us in that way? However, I will be the first to say and you can bear witness here, "I AS A MUSLIM CONDEMN ISIS".

Incidentally, I learnt yesterday that in Christianity (Not sure which sect or if it is all, sorry), there are three forms of prayer. A rememberence, supplication and prostration (Which few priests do). Amazingly, the same three are in Islam as Zikr, Du'a and Sallah. Just shows how close the Abrahamic religions really are!

Also to continue what @prisonermonkeys said about instabilities. He is bang on right about the guidance at the time of instability. The Quraan and Hadith guide a Muslim throughout his/her whole life, but the parts that we see in the media (as I have shown) are all about specific instances. For example, tribal wars are forbidden in Islam. But who has that today? The reason they are not allowed is because of this instance in Arabia, which by the way before Islam really was not a nice place. In Arabia there is is tradition of Camel races. Now in one of these Camel races some 1400+ years ago a boy did not like that another camel won. So to teach that "team/tribe" a lesson he got a rock and killed the poor camel. In return, that tribe killed him. Then the boys family killed the family that killed the boy. Before you know it a massive bloodbath had ensued, all because one person lost a race.

I am more than happy to share whatever knowledge I have about Islam, as long as you are willing to listen to it without any preconceptions or bias and then make your decision based on that and not Wikipedia or the media. I am no scholar of Islam, so there may be things I do not know, in which case I will have to say "I cannot give you an answer" so I hope you guys will all forgive me for that!


oh and PS: My social media feed is mostly about planes/F1 and friends xD
I tend to keep religion out of it (sometimes you just don't want to really know) So I will always search around if I want opinions

 

[JKgo]

...Y'know, I came across this article a while ago. It's about a popular Saudi comedian, who mocked ISIS plus host of others, and the reactions afterwards.

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-33228691

Soooo, then. What was it about muslems not condemning/ridiculing IS? Admittedly, it's only one example, but since I'm too lazy to trawl through the net, this have to suffice for now.
When you are being bombarded with death threats and of bodily harm, I'm pretty sure people of regular constitutions may shy away from appearing publicly to "anger" the so-called jihadists.

But that's just my opinion, right?

 

[KSaiyu]

So Muslims, numbering 1.7 billion globally don't want to collectively stand up to ISIS because of death threats against specific Muslims who are brave enough to stand up to them and instead want us to risk our lives fighting ISIS. And the only facebook post I can find from a Muslim on the current events (which recieved 10 likes) is saying the end is nigh, prepare for heaven?

Just checking if you guys are saying this and wondering if there's any point addressing the other points made.

And I'm sorry liberals, but in what world would the response be the same if Christian terrorists massacared non-Christians especially targetting those from Muslim countries and the only response posted on social media we've seen in this thread is from a Christian saying "This may be our last Lent, make the most of it and we will be reunited in heaven". @ECGadget your stand is noted, and it's a crime more of your fellow Muslims are not with you. But let's be honest, I'm not expecting the masses of TH to stand in unison with you.

Absolutely incredible. Like it or not, someone who actually is racist is going to exploit this for all its worth and don't say we didn't warn you. Britain is now a tinderbox ready to ignite and that spark could come from anywhere. It doesn't even have to be from radical Islam, literally. What happens if an EDL member goes on a rampage in a Mosque? We have all seen the fallout of a crazy white supremacist losing his nut in America.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

And I'm sorry liberals, but in what world would the response be the same if Christian terrorists massacared non-Christians especially targetting those from Muslim countries and the only response posted on social media we've seen in this thread is from a Christian saying "This may be our last Lent, make the most of it and we will be reunited in heaven".

You don't have to apologise for liberals. You do, however, have to apologise for conservatives. After all, they're the ones calling for extensive bombing campaigns in the Middle East with no regard for innocent lives so that they can sleep soundly at night.

Don't blame the liberals for your mistakes.

 

[KSaiyu]

Wake up. Look how easy it has been for me to remain unchallenged on this forum by anyone apart from so called liberals when it comes to this issue (funnily enough I'd actually call myself more liberal than a lot of those calling themselves that, with some notable exceptions). Imagine what would happen on a national scale. When people are scared they become desperate and we've just had the biggest loss of British life from an attack since 7/7. We are only a week into Ramadan and a plot was foiled to attack a parade in London. Liberals need to stop holding on to a lost cause and help stop a lurch to the "far-right".

 

[ECGadget]

@KSaiyu I am glad that you see my stance on this but I think what you are failing to understand the difference between Islam and what is actually going on. With all due respect whether it is a time of peace or not or whatever, the supplication made by Muslims remains the same. You are highlighting this in a way that makes it seem like it is the only supplication a Muslim makes, in which case you are very mistaken.

And like I said, many many Muslims haven't really got much of an idea as to what is going on, simply because of misinformation all over the place, from internal and external sources. It doesn't help at all. My stand is not my stand alone, it is the stand of Islam and I would like you to acknowledge only one fact, which is that ISIS is not "Original Islam". After that everything else is open to debate and discussion, that is for sure.

Also, I want to ask you: what do you know of Ramadan? What do you think it is that you seem to be linking Ramadan to all of what has happened?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Look how easy it has been for me to remain unchallenged on this forum by anyone apart from liberals when it comes to this issue.

You have been comprehensively shot down on every single subject that you have taken part in for the past few months, be it Islam, political correctness, homosexuality, immigration or any other topic - pretty much everything since your "I went down to my local mosque to see what I could do" drama. You claim to be unchallenged, but in reality most of the forum consider you to be either a fringe lunatic or having absolutely no credibility; either way, they don't bother to engage. The only consistent support that you get comes from a forum member who admitted to a deep fear of immigrants despite having never met any, and someone whose only contributions have been to point out months-old inconsistencies in others' posts.

So technically, you're right. You remain unchallenged, but not in the way that you think. You remain unchallenged because nobody can be bothered debating with you in the first place given your frequent ad hominem attacks, refusal to supply evidence when asked, and your habit of using unprovable anecdotal evidence and straw man arguments. Given the choice between enacting your every suggestion and ignoring outright, more good will come to the world from ignoring you.

 

[KSaiyu]

Also, I want to ask you: what do you know of Ramadan? What do you think it is that you seem to be linking Ramadan to all of what has happened?

From May:
http://www.news.com.au/national/isl...madan-approaches/story-fncynjr2-1227372213317

Today:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...-attack-at-factory-in-france-local-media-say/
http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...ents-follow-isis-ramadan-message-472095299808

 

[ECGadget]

From May:
http://www.news.com.au/national/isl...madan-approaches/story-fncynjr2-1227372213317

Today:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...-attack-at-factory-in-france-local-media-say/
http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...ents-follow-isis-ramadan-message-472095299808

So all in all you have zero knowledge about what Ramadan is. Ramadan is the ninth month in the Islamic Lunar Calendar. It is considered the holiest of months, along with the days of Hajj, during the last month of the Lunar year and the first ten days of Muharram, the start of the Lunar year (especially days 9, 10 and 11 which are linked to the story of Moses and are of similar importance in Judaism).

During Ramadan a Muslim is required to fast during the daylight hours (with a number of exceptions, such as the elderly or pregnant etc). At night a Muslim is encouraged to stand in additional prayers specific for this month. The idea behind this fasting is the same as the fasting of the Christians and the Jews. The Quraan states: "Fasting has been prescribed for you, as it has been prescribed for those before you, so that you may become pious"

When a person becomes angry during this month, his response should always be "I am fasting" to himself/herself that they are doing something for the sake of God and should be ever more mindful of any wrongdoing.

Nowhere in any of this is any relation to Ramadan being a month for people to kill people or a month of fighting or war or a show of force or anything. So what you are doing is buying into the ISIS ideologies and using them as Islam without finding out any facts. That in itself is ignorance and I am sure that you are far from an ignorant person

 

[Saidur_Ali]

At the end of the day public condemning doesn't seem to do much but probably empowers them. They seem to kill / destroy for the sake of it no matter who or what. When terror attacks are committed in the name of religion by a very small minority, it to me is common sense that the actions are condemned worldwide by majority of people.

If they are supported by masses like @KSaiyu thinks then the problem would be likely considerably greater than it currently is (Understatement of the year). Masses of Tower Hamlets in UK he thinks supports them when the whole "ISIS" terrorist organisation is likely to be considerably less than the population of that place. How often do you hear in UK let alone TH there are beheadings in the name of Islam, can't think of one myself that has been fully carried out like this one in France. KSaiyu, you do seem unchallenged in number of defeats you've faced on here .

I wouldn't be surprised if greater than 99.9% of world population are united against terrorists, it only takes one crazy person to cause a lot of destruction. I really hope "ISIS" implode, reforming to be an Islamic State doesn't seem likely, after all they kill people who follow the Qur'an. "ISIS" preach suicide, brag about how they kill innocent people including Muslims, claim responsibility for blowing up mosques which likely means they blew up copies of the Qur'an and do a whole lot of other terrible things.

The sooner targets of these people see them for who they are the better: "Anti-Islam State", less chance of radicalisation then IMO. Easier said than done though, as I said before it only takes one person to carry out such terrible attacks like this one in France.

 

[KSaiyu]

To be honest I'm acutely aware that GTP has always been good to me, and I feel bad for dragging conversations into very controversial territory. As such I'm limiting my responses to try and cause as least offence as possible - not censorship but more mindfulness of the audience and respect of the treatment I've recieved from the site owner and staff. That said these past few weeks have dramatically changed the public's perception of the world, and I feel some un-PC comments are validated in addressing the very real concerns people are now facing.

@Saidur_Ali and @ECGadget. Believe it or not but a lot of the world are looking at you and people like you for how you react to these latest developments. ECGadget, you have told me I have zero knowledge of what Ramadan is after my showing you of the plans of ISIS to ramp up attacks during the holy month. Apart from being incorrect (I probably know more than most non-Muslims, but less than you) this will be percieved for what it is, a diversionary tactic. You asked me why I was linking Ramadan to these atrocities and I provided the evidence. It is up to you to accept it or disagree, but don't expect many to be impressed if you use it to try and discredit me. Do you know my thoughts on whether Ramadan times in the UK should be shortened for instance?

Saidur Ali, public condemnation from the West/everyone else empowers them. It feeds isolationism and division between Muslim and non-Muslim, and acts both as a draw for maladjusted Muslims the world over and legitimises the belief that Muslim and non-Muslim cannot get along. Absolute, unequivocal condemnation from Muslims will undoubtably weaken them. It will show that Islam rejects this caliphate and that we are in this fight together. May I suggest Muslims the world over listen to the King of Jordan (you may know his son, the guy who took on Sepp Blatter and is a distant relation of Muhammad) and his always hot wife and put their money where supposedly their mouth is. As for Tower Hamlets, the point was that there wouldn't be a protest from that area any time soon. You have failed to disprove that point.

PM, maybe it's time you stop this crusade in the name of PC. I've noticed that there seems to be an appreciable split between more old-school liberals and this bizarre neo-Liberalism that seems intent on covering everything that's gone wrong with their policies up. I've noticed that libertarians on this board disagree with each other from time to time, the more conservative members do too as do the less "zealous" liberals (I'm actually a mix between the last two. There's no way a true neo-con would create a thread titled "Al Qaeda - A time to talk"). This critical discussion is noticeably absent with these "defenders of social justice", and sometimes comes across as a mass of "opinions" singing the same hymn from different song sheets. I fear that if you were still a moderator you would have banned me months ago, and censorship is scary no matter if it's "far left" or "far right". Best thing would probably be a trip to one of your multicultural havens that you believe are created following mass migration, or maybe a stay in a more rationally liberal city. I hear Seattle is nice.

 

[ECGadget]

@KSaiyu with all due respect, I asked YOU what you thought Ramadan is and what do you know of it. You in return provide with with three links. In that regard you completely failed to answer the bulk of my question. The only part you answered was the part that would portray Islam in a negative light, which I have noticed is a recurring theme with you. Even with the facts in front of you, you fail to acknowledge them. I also call to question your claim of me attempting a "diversionary tactic". By that same premise, your tactic of calling up a wikipedia reference to slavery would be classed as the same diversionary tactic. The difference? My "tactic" has relevence to what is being said whilst yours had none whatsoever. I have already given my thoughts on what I think of ISIS and terrorism and crime in general. I would like to think people on this forum know me for that. You try to call me out on points where my standpoint is clear whilst rejecting most of what I have to say. And lastly, you say I am using your links to discredit you (which at no point did I say those links are false or you have got false links) but you are using the actions of a select group whom you have been told are not acting in the name of Islam and using that to discredit an entire religion. I stand by what I said in every single post I have made regarding Islam.

 

[KSaiyu]

Not quite. You asked me:

"Also, I want to ask you: what do you know of Ramadan? What do you think it is that you seem to be linking Ramadan to all of what has happened?"

The link you were referring to was when I stated that we are only at the end of the first week of Ramadan. This was referring to ISIS's stated aim of ramping up attacks during this years Ramadan.

If you still want to know my thoughts about Ramadan, including the recent call for the time to be changed then I can provide this if you wish.

 

[ECGadget]

Not quite. You asked me:

"Also, I want to ask you: what do you know of Ramadan? What do you think it is that you seem to be linking Ramadan to all of what has happened?"

The link you were referring to was when I stated that we are only at the end of the first week of Ramadan. This was referring to ISIS's stated aim of ramping up attacks during this years Ramadan.

If you still want to know my thoughts about Ramadan, including the recent call for the time to be changed then I can provide this if you wish.

You are right, and you only answered the end of the question. And no, I do not really see the need for you to answer that question now. To be quite honest I find myself agreeing moreso with @prisonermonkeys posts here. I felt perhaps it was due to the nature that you did not know about Islam and only gathered information from the media that you felt this way but it is becoming quite clear that even when you are told something that doesn't agree with your thoughts, you merely brush this off as a lie or a manipulation or perhaps propaganda of some form. You are sadly a hate monger, at least here, and I hope that you realise one day that what I have been trying to tell you is Islam and not the lies you have been fed by wherever you have been fed from.


Edit: If this is too far, mods please call me out on this.

 

[KSaiyu]

No you don't just get to call me a "hate monger" and run away. I see Ramadan much like Lent in that it is fine for Muslims to observe as Lent is for Christians so long as it doesn't become so intrusive as to become a problem for other people who aren't Muslim/Christian. It needs to evolve for 21st century work/education requirements, and I wish more Muslims got on board the call for the times to be adjusted for more British Muslims instead of denigrating him as "not a true scholar of Islam".

 

[ECGadget]

So first you make out that I do not know my own religion. You ignore what I have to say about it and try to call me out on either unrelated points or taking my own words out of context. Then you tell me I have been trying a diversion (which by the way you did again when I made point to you trying to discredit an entire religion by all but ignoring that). And now you tell me how you think I should perform my obligations? You are the one complaining about something that we do that has ZERO effect on you. Does somehow our not eating cause your stomach to feel empty? We get on with every single part of our lives regardless of whether we are fasting or not. Whether we feel it is tough or not is OUR issue and not yours. Whether it is the 6th Century or the 21st Century, it makes no difference. Go out there and ask Muslims if they hate fasting. They will probably tell you it is tough, you get hungry especially in the heat etc BUT none of them would say "Oh well it is really intrusive to my work". They will get through it because they will stick to their principle. We don't need times adjusted because for 99.9% of us it is no bother.

In any case, I feel I have nothing more to say on this topic because it is once again becoming political and clearly you are not very good at accepting the facts. What I will once again quote though is a previous post of mine, and maybe you will read it and think about this "Original Islam" that you seem to be telling people is what ISIS is doing.

Example One is of respect:
The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was once sitting in the company of his companions. Whilst he was talking he saw a funeral procession approach. He stopped, and stood up quietly as it passed. When the companions saw a tear fall they asked him why. The Prophet replied, "Was he not a human being? Does he not deserve the same respect?"
Respect. Something that should be engrained in every Muslim.

Example Two is of tolerance, respect and conduct:
When the prophet went to the city now known as Madinah there were three major religions there other than the Muslims. They were the Jews, The Christians and the Fire Worshippers. From what we assume today about Islam, we would have thought that the Prophet would have gone in and told them all to become muslim or leave, right? But that was not what happened. Instead the Prophet invited all the people over to first sleep in his company, so that he could talk to people and get to know the community. Thereafter he wrote three treaties, one for each of the religions. Nowhere on those treaties did it say "you must become muslim". As a matter of fact, the first thing on each treaty was, "I will protect you, your families and your property". As well as this the prophet gathered all the Muslims and said to them that they must never harm anyone of those people under the treaty. Never to damage their property or steal from them. If they did, they would never smell the fragrance of paradise. That is how high in regard these people were held. On top of that, the Prophet met with the Monks, Rabbis and Priests and told them categorically that whilst he does not believe what they believe, he recognises them as the religious leaders and will respect them in that capacity.
Tolerance and good conduct at it's best.

Example Three: dislike of fighting.
There was an incident in which the Muslims were called to arms. When they reached the battlefield there was nobody to fight. They waited but nobody showed up. During this waiting some of the fighters began to get restless, ready to fight. Did the Prophet urge them to prepare more? No. Instead he chided them and asked them why they were eager to spill the blood of another human. If the enemy failed to show, then nobody would need to be killed.
Fighting? No needed unless necessary.

Example four: ettiqutte of war.
What were the rules that the Prophet said?
You will only fight the armed men.
You will not harm a woman, or a child, or an elderly person.
You will not fight in anger.
Amongst many others.
Even when fighting there we rules. Religious buildings were not to be harmed either.
Ettiquette.

Example five: mercy.
When the Prophet returned to the city of Makkah, did he come in weapons aloft? No. He walked in and retook the city without bloodshed. And he showed mercy on those who mocked him, spat on him, tried at assassinate him etc. Why? Because that was what Islam was. Peace.

Example 6: Sharing and Tolerance
A group of Christians were travelling and they came to Madinah. It was the time for their prayers yet they had nowhere to pray. The Prophet opened up one of the most sacred mosques in Islam and told the Christians that they could pray in peace in the mosque.
Sharing.

Example 7: Compassion
There was a woman who hated the Prophet, and every day she would throw her rubbish at him from a window. This happened a long time but one day this stopped. The Prophet enquired what happened to this lady and found out the she had fallen ill. Did he rejoice? No. Instead he went to visit her and wish her well.

Example 8: stoned.
The prophet heard of some people in a place called Taif. He thought he would go see who they were and if they would like to hear about Islam. These people stoned him until he was bleeding and he had to flee for his life. The angel Gabriel came to the Prophet and told him that if he so wished, he would drop an entire mountain over the town and kill everyone. What did the prophet say? Yes? Of course not. He said no. What does this show us? Even if we have the power to crush an enemy, it should not be used.

ISIS is original Islam, right? I think not.

 

[KSaiyu]

So first you make out that I do not know my own religion. You ignore what I have to say about it and try to call me out on either unrelated points or taking my own words out of context. Then you tell me I have been trying a diversion (which by the way you did again when I made point to you trying to discredit an entire religion by all but ignoring that). And now you tell me how you think I should perform my obligations? You are the one complaining about something that we do that has ZERO effect on you. Does somehow our not eating cause your stomach to feel empty? We get on with every single part of our lives regardless of whether we are fasting or not. Whether we feel it is tough or not is OUR issue and not yours. Whether it is the 6th Century or the 21st Century, it makes no difference. Go out there and ask Muslims if they hate fasting. They will probably tell you it is tough, you get hungry especially in the heat etc BUT none of them would say "Oh well it is really intrusive to my work". They will get through it because they will stick to their principle. We don't need times adjusted because for 99.9% of us it is no bother..

Mate I worked with a student nurse who refused to take even a sip of water. This led to her being hypotensive and hypoglycaemic, and unable to carry out her duties - duties which I had to undertake in addition to my own.

I'd also consider the attitude making out Muslims are the only victimised group in the world, especially since I just experienced another racially discriminatory event in the place I call "home".

 

[ECGadget]

Mate I worked with a student nurse who refused to take even a sip of water. This led to her being hypotensive and hypoglycaemic, and unable to carry out her duties - duties which I had to undertake in addition to my own.

And as the the laws state:
- If a person falls ill during the state of fasting and needs to break the fast, it is permissible to eat/drink as much as is needed. The fast may be made up at a later date.

So if her blood pressure and sugar levels dropped like that, Islam says that for her to break her fast would have been no sin on her.

And when did I say Muslims are the only victimised people in the world? Again you are trying to contort what I say and making up assumptions. What about the Christians in places? What about the Black Communities in the USA? And then what about all the smaller communities? But this is about Islam right here and right now, so don't start diverging and confusing the discussion further.

 

[KSaiyu]

And as the the laws state:
- If a person falls ill during the state of fasting and needs to break the fast, it is permissible to eat/drink as much as is needed. The fast may be made up at a later date.

So if her blood pressure and sugar levels dropped like that, Islam says that for her to break her fast would have been no sin on her.

I know that, you know that. She doesn't care, and a frightening amount of young Muslims are just like that.

 

[ECGadget]

I know that, you know that. She doesn't care, and a frightening amount of young Muslims are just like that.

Yes. They are and they need to be educated in what Islam is. And that is what the mosques have been trying to do, now more than ever. But that doesn't call for laws to be changed.


That is like saying:

"Do you know what speed you were going?"
"40mph"
"The speed limit is 30"
"I didn't know that"
"Oh, then we will change the law to 40"


It doesn't work. The system breaks down and you know it.

 

[KSaiyu]

A lot of the Mosques are part of the problem! My local one was raided by counter terrorist officers a few weeks ago in connection with the Wembley killing.

You need a clear direction from all Mosques on how you want British Muslims to observe the faith

 

[Beeblebrox237]

You have been comprehensively shot down on every single subject that you have taken part in for the past few months, be it Islam, political correctness, homosexuality, immigration or any other topic - pretty much everything since your "I went down to my local mosque to see what I could do" drama. You claim to be unchallenged, but in reality most of the forum consider you to be either a fringe lunatic or having absolutely no credibility; either way, they don't bother to engage. The only consistent support that you get comes from a forum member who admitted to a deep fear of immigrants despite having never met any, and someone whose only contributions have been to point out months-old inconsistencies in others' posts.

So technically, you're right. You remain unchallenged, but not in the way that you think. You remain unchallenged because nobody can be bothered debating with you in the first place given your frequent ad hominem attacks, refusal to supply evidence when asked, and your habit of using unprovable anecdotal evidence and straw man arguments. Given the choice between enacting your every suggestion and ignoring outright, more good will come to the world from ignoring you.

This, so much this.

After several debates with KSaiyu I found that his grasp on reality and rational thought is marginal at best, and that he refuses to reevaluate his opinions and beliefs in the face of better evidence. Instead, he turns to personal attacks, bigotry, fear mongering, and the internet equivalent of shoving his fingers in his ears and screaming. I've been tempted to debate with him on many other counts but having seen the result, it's best that I don't because it would be a waste of my time to try to engage in any sort of intelligent or enlightened conversation with such a person.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

To be honest I'm acutely aware that GTP has always been good to me, and I feel bad for dragging conversations into very controversial territory. As such I'm limiting my responses to try and cause as least offence as possible - not censorship but more mindfulness of the audience and respect of the treatment I've recieved from the site owner and staff. That said these past few weeks have dramatically changed the public's perception of the world, and I feel some un-PC comments are validated in addressing the very real concerns people are now facing.

@Saidur_Ali and @ECGadget. Believe it or not but a lot of the world are looking at you and people like you for how you react to these latest developments. ECGadget, you have told me I have zero knowledge of what Ramadan is after my showing you of the plans of ISIS to ramp up attacks during the holy month. Apart from being incorrect (I probably know more than most non-Muslims, but less than you) this will be percieved for what it is, a diversionary tactic. You asked me why I was linking Ramadan to these atrocities and I provided the evidence. It is up to you to accept it or disagree, but don't expect many to be impressed if you use it to try and discredit me. Do you know my thoughts on whether Ramadan times in the UK should be shortened for instance?

Saidur Ali, public condemnation from the West/everyone else empowers them. It feeds isolationism and division between Muslim and non-Muslim, and acts both as a draw for maladjusted Muslims the world over and legitimises the belief that Muslim and non-Muslim cannot get along. Absolute, unequivocal condemnation from Muslims will undoubtably weaken them. It will show that Islam rejects this caliphate and that we are in this fight together. May I suggest Muslims the world over listen to the King of Jordan (you may know his son, the guy who took on Sepp Blatter and is a distant relation of Muhammad) and his always hot wife and put their money where supposedly their mouth is. As for Tower Hamlets, the point was that there wouldn't be a protest from that area any time soon. You have failed to disprove that point.

PM, maybe it's time you stop this crusade in the name of PC. I've noticed that there seems to be an appreciable split between more old-school liberals and this bizarre neo-Liberalism that seems intent on covering everything that's gone wrong with their policies up. I've noticed that libertarians on this board disagree with each other from time to time, the more conservative members do too as do the less "zealous" liberals (I'm actually a mix between the last two. There's no way a true neo-con would create a thread titled "Al Qaeda - A time to talk"). This critical discussion is noticeably absent with these "defenders of social justice", and sometimes comes across as a mass of "opinions" singing the same hymn from different song sheets. I fear that if you were still a moderator you would have banned me months ago, and censorship is scary no matter if it's "far left" or "far right". Best thing would probably be a trip to one of your multicultural havens that you believe are created following mass migration, or maybe a stay in a more rationally liberal city. I hear Seattle is nice.

It is good then to see close to unequivocal condemnation already. There is not much support for this terrorist organisation. What will happen by public protests? It won't stop them but feed their desire to seek revenge IMO. The scope for terror is quite scary but fortunately most people are humane. Look at what happened in Charleston, US for example, you get the sense from "ISIS" that is the country they hate the most but I can't think of any gun massacre like that by terrorists like "ISIS". Being vigilant is what most of us can do.

 

[ECGadget]

A lot of the Mosques are part of the problem! My local one was raided by counter terrorist officers a few weeks ago in connection with the Wembley killing.

You need a clear direction from all Mosques on how you want British Muslims to observe the faith

I believe you mean a FEW Mosques are part of the problem. And I will admit that too, that there is a lot of disharmony in the Islamic community and it does not help at all. But to say a LOT are the problem? That simply is not true.

 

[KSaiyu]

It is good then to see close to unequivocal condemnation already. There is not much support for this terrorist organisation. What will happen by public protests? It won't stop them but feed their desire to seek revenge IMO. The scope for terror is quite scary but fortunately most people are humane. Look at what happened in Charleston, US for example, you get the sense from "ISIS" that is the country they hate the most but I can't think of any gun massacre like that by terrorists like "ISIS". Being vigilant is what most of us can do.

So with over 700 going over there from Britain your response is to sit on your hands and cry victim, and instead wait for the next intifada to mobilise en-masse in London, Birmingham etc?

You'll forgive me if I don't respond to other subsequent posts.

EDIT: OK guys, if you don't get it understand this please. People like UKIP are going to convince a lot of people using arguments similar to mine that you are all a threat. The time is now for British Islam to stand up and redefine itself fit for 2015. If you want a very easy analogy, look to a guy called Adolf Hitler, the Jews and the circumstances of 1930's Europe.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

So with over 700 going over there from Britain your response is to sit on your hands and cry victim, and instead wait for the next intifada to mobilise en-masse in London, Birmingham etc?

You'll forgive me if I don't respond to other subsequent posts.

EDIT: OK guys, if you don't get it understand this please. People like UKIP are going to convince a lot of people using arguments similar to mine that you are all a threat. The time is now for British Islam to stand up and redefine itself fit for 2015. If you want a very easy analogy, look to a guy called Adolf Hitler, the Jews and the circumstances of 1930's Europe.

Less than 0.03% of British Muslims then. What are you going to do about all these people who seek to become terrorists whether Muslim or not, some of these people look forward to death? Will you sit on your hands and cry victim? There have been protests in Tunisia (Most of population is Muslim), that doesn't stop terrorist attacks happening though does it?

IMO best thing to do is actively discourage people from this ideology and report those that try and radicalise / have been radicalised.