Attack on gas plant in France.

[ECGadget]

Also to note one thing: these protests were on British soil, in protest of a British alliance to make their voices heard to the British government. The UK goverenment was not going to threaten anyone with death or bomb a city or public event. Protest in that way against ISIS and
1) It will not stop them
2) It will increase the risk to the UK Public. Not Muslims but the whole public so bear that in mind.
3) The UK government knows what they are to do against ISIS and we all agree with it.

And like I have said, in Mosques they have been condemning the actions of ISIS again and again to drill it into peoples minds.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

This, so much this.

After several debates with KSaiyu I found that his grasp on reality and rational thought is marginal at best, and that he refuses to reevaluate his opinions and beliefs in the face of better evidence. Instead, he turns to personal attacks, bigotry, fear mongering, and the internet equivalent of shoving his fingers in his ears and screaming. I've been tempted to debate with him on many other counts but having seen the result, it's best that I don't because it would be a waste of my time to try to engage in any sort of intelligent or enlightened conversation with such a person.

The only reason I do it is because I'm genuinely concerned that his attitude will take hold otherwise.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Sadly, I don't have the time. But when (if) I do, I'm going to come back with all guns blazing.

 

[ClydeYellow]

So with over 700 going over there from Britain your response is to sit on your hands and cry victim, and instead wait for the next intifada to mobilise en-masse in London, Birmingham etc?

You'll forgive me if I don't respond to other subsequent posts.

EDIT: OK guys, if you don't get it understand this please. People like UKIP are going to convince a lot of people using arguments similar to mine that you are all a threat. The time is now for British Islam to stand up and redefine itself fit for 2015. If you want a very easy analogy, look to a guy called Adolf Hitler, the Jews and the circumstances of 1930's Europe.

Did you seriously:

• Put pro-Palestine protesters and the ISIL/extremist Islam together;
• Argue that "British Islam" should "stand up and redefine itself fit for 2015", whatever that means;
• Somehow manage to shoehorn Hitler in with what should be a "very easy analogy" that's based on a very simplicistic, very wrong, and perhaps even apologetic understanding of the Shoah (what could have the Jews done to update their image and save themselves from extermination?).

You know, I was simply going to joke on how insane you actually sounded in this post, but that last analogy really is food for thought. The Jews were depicted as creatures that weren't integrated, nor willing to integrate within German society; enemies of the state and a threat to the purity and integrity of the Volksgemeinschaft, the community of the German Aryan people. Dangerous, poisonous myths were created or resurrected. And all of that despite the fact that (as you should know) most German Jews were perfectly integrated within German society.

And now, when you come saying that you are for a white heritage which you feel is threatened by multiculturalism, that you are afraid about Islamic extremism (while posting images that have nothing to do with Islamic extremism), and that you think the Islamic leaders aren't speaking up against the ISIL's brand of Islam, I start to see pattern, and become suspicious.

But I'm sure I misunderstood you.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Like he said, we don't just get it. Understandable really as he seems radicalised. Head in sand approach when his views are challenged and still maintaining very extreme views which is opposite to what evidence shows. Seems a dangerous mentality to have and seems similar to ones these terrorists might have.

 

[KSaiyu]

But I'm sure I misunderstood you.

Yep, here is where you fail:

Did you seriously:

• Somehow manage to shoehorn Hitler in with what should be a "very easy analogy" that's based on a very simplicistic, very wrong, and perhaps even apologetic understanding of the Shoah (what could have the Jews done to update their image and save themselves from extermination?).

The analogy was showing how Hitler managed to convince a large proportion of a country to be very scared of a population. He conflated a small amount of prejudice into a hatred that led to the biggest systematic genocide of the 20th century. Instead of seeing this, your mind has seen "KSaiyu is prejudiced. Neo-Nazis are prejudiced. KSaiyu's rationality is skewed and he must be seeing this all wrong".

"Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering"

Essentially your other points are feeding the delusion that British Islam in its current state is not a problem and can continue without reformation by British Muslims. This is very, very dangerous for the reasons highlighted.

If I show you this
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6059/atrocities-muslim-world
And ask anyone here who has replied/liked posts to critically argue against the piece without mentioning "Gatestone Institute", what would be the replies.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The analogy was showing how Hitler managed to convince a large proportion of a country to be very scared of a population.

An analogy which shows only a superficial understanding of history.

 

[KSaiyu]

OK, I'll help you out (speaking as if I was a British Muslim).

The article paints Islam as an all-conquering force that enslaves its prisoners of war and knows no other form of existence apart from rules laid out by its creator over a thousand years ago. I disagree that this is Islam, but merely an interpretation of it. The Islam I know, that is preached by my Mosque and that I have lived by example of is one of peace and tolerance. Instead of working to subvert the democratic process many Muslims I know actively engage in it and embrace our countries freedoms and traditions. I, for example regularly wear the England football shirt in public whilst my father dedicated his life to serving the people of London's right to enjoy such freedoms - sometimes engaging against fellow Muslims for the betterment of society.

- And then on to arguing the points of the article.

Fact is you can't trust gatestone for fair articles - they know this, but they argue their points with facts and logic so you can't really criticise them without having to resort to "lol gatestone", but they're not invulnerable. Take:

Western states also have democratic and humanitarian values, which Islamic states do not. The religious and historical experiences of the Western world and the Islamic world are so enormously different that they ended up having completely different cultures and values.

I'd argue about the breakdown of the family in Western states, and the better treatment of the elderly found in the Islamic world. Also that Kuwaitis pay for their citizens to fly to London for private healthcare.

Now, I'm willing to help you guys write balanced articles since I presume you are younger and less experienced but you'll have to approach the subject fairly and not resort to the equivalent of closing your eyes and pretending a change isn't needed. Probably the most balanced evaluation of ISIS as being Islamic is the Atlantic piece, and it won't make comfortable reading for you. It's my belief you've been sold down the river by Leftist policies and as such are unprepared to fight back in any meaningful way.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The Islam I know, that is preached by my Mosque and that I have lived by example of is one of peace and tolerance. Instead of working to subvert the democratic process many Muslims I know actively engage in it and embrace our countries freedoms and traditions.

Really?

This is what you had to say about that mosque three months ago:

So instead of being an armchair activist I thought I'd go down to one of the largest mosques in Western Europe to see if we could do something to turn students vulnerable to extremism to the Mosques and away from extremism. Unfortunately it was very much a case of "we are doing all we can" and "this problem is new to us" before telling me to my face that I had to do research and I'd discover how ISIS are really funded and trained ("the West") and who controls the media (they didn't openly say it, but insinuated "the Jews"). Next I was given a half hour lecture on converting to Islam.


This is one of the largest Mosques, for one of the largest Muslim communities outside the Middle East/Asia

This is 'moderate Islam'.

So what changed in those ninety days?

 

[KSaiyu]

I'm speaking as if I was ECGadget in my last post (the clue is that I'm not really a Muslim). ECGadget would in fact know the Mosque I was talking about in that post you quoted if he lives in London. You're confusing Mosques. In fact there was one Imam who came out in support of gay marriage in London but recieved death threats (OK that was wrong, I confused it with an MP, but still it's not like all Imams would chuck out homosexuals)

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm speaking as if I was ECGadget in my last post

And it didn't occur to you to make that clear?

 

[KSaiyu]

And it didn't occur to you to make that clear?

I have autistic tendencies but even I would be able to figure out that I was speaking as a British Muslim, and if you've been following the thread you would see @ECGadget 's dad is/was a sergeant for the Met. Fair enough though, I'll edit it.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I have autistic tendencies

I don't know you personally, but as someone who works with kids who have Asperger's sydrome and autism, I can honestly say that from what I've seen, you don't fall on the spectrum.

even I would be able to figure out that I was speaking as a British Muslim

I'm glad you can, but my point was not what you can do, but what everyone else can.

if you've been following the thread you would see

I have been following the thread, and yet I didn't see it.

 

[ECGadget]

I know of the Mosque you refer to, yes.
I also accept that you have tried to take my points on board in an attempt to write as a British Muslim. What I take issue with here is that you keep stating that British Muslims need to adapt their religion. Not to suit them better but to suit you better. Muslims may not know too much about religion but what they do know does not ever make them feel: "well this is no good." You are jumping from topic to topic here, ISIS to Slavery to Ramadan to Reforming Islam in the UK but on each one you are failing to even understand Islam and its stance. This makes you just as closed minded as you claim us to be. I see us approaching the subject far more fairly than you do, stating out facts that are hard facts instead of contorted and twisted ones which can be spun into other "facts" (which is what ISIS do).

Now I do understand that you see Islam in a very different light, especially considering what happened on Sep 11th, July 7th, almost on 10th August (which incidentally I could have been injured in) etc etc. That is only natural if your primary source of information is the media. Stories like that sell, fear mongering and falsehoods wrapped in a truth. Add to that all the current "Muslim Terrorists" and I do understand. If I did not know better I would feel a similar way. The difference is is that when this happened I started learning more about Islam because I felt that no religion would support this. And that is exsctly what I found. I have been trying to share this with GTPlanet over the past few months. I am not intending to make each member Muslim! I am intending to teach them what Islam is so when they go out there themselves they do not fall into the trap you have and find reason to hate or dislike a community. In a similar way, one of my best friends is Catholic and I learnt about his religion and found similarities and a newfound respect for Christians over all. Same for Jews, Bhuddists, Hindus, Sikhs and especially Aethiests. Some of their study in science is amazing. But back to the point, I feel that overall WE have a fairer stance than yourself.

 

[KSaiyu]

That is fair enough, but don't expect the rest of Britain to come to the same conclusions as yourself considering we've just suffered the worst terrorist attack since 7/7. Since you've again called me closed minded there's not much more I can really say.

EDIT: Wait actually sod it, it's not fair enough. Why should I be expected to change after all these events and not British Islam?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

That is fair enough, but don't expect the rest of Britain to come to the same conclusions as yourself considering we've just suffered the worst terrorist attack since 7/7. Since you've again called me closed minded there's not much more I can really say.

Wait actually sod it, it's not fair enough. Why should I be expected to change after all these events and not British Islam?

Did you expect Christians to change as well after Anders Breivik Norway attacks?

 

[KSaiyu]

Did you expect Christians to change as well after Anders Breivik Norway attacks?

You need to do further research as you are comparing the actions of a man with a personality disorder with everything British Islam has either enabled or refused to condemn.

We forced the Catholic Church to take a good long look at itself and change, and I believe the time is now for Islam in Britain to do the same.

 

[ECGadget]

I will tell you why you are "expected to change".

1) You are basing your "facts" from a far fetched notion that the original Islam is in fact the one ISIS follow
2) You are resorting quite often to hearing only what you wish to hear and blatently ignoring everything else; something that has been picked up by myself and indeed others right here on this forum
3) When a fact is presented before you, you tend to counter it with a wholly unrelated "fact" from a less than credible source.
4) You seem to have nothing more than a basic understanding of "British Islam" as you put it and yet demand it to be reformed.


"British Islam" on the other hand:
1) Does not judge you for who you are.
2) Promotes voting and standing up to make a change to make britain a great place again
3) Teaches to be proud of religion and to be proud to be British
4) Only asks to be allowed to practise religion in peace, nothing more.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

You need to do further research as you are comparing the actions of a paranoid schizophrenic with everything British Islam has either enabled or refused to condemn.

We forced the Catholic Church to take a good long look at itself and change, and I believe the time is now for Islam in Britain to do the same.

He was declared sane. Should Christianity have to redefine itself in 2015 after what Dylann Roof did? Is this what Christians have enabled and refused to condemn? You may think so if you use your same logic but I don't.

 

[KSaiyu]

He was declared sane. Should Christianity have to redefine itself in 2015 after what Dylann Roof did? Is this what Christians have enabled and refused to condemn? You may think so if you use your same logic but I don't.

Changed to having a personality disorder. What does Dylann Roof have to do with Christianity?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Changed to having a personality disorder. What does Dylann Roof have to do with Christianity?

He was declared sane after IIRC. Similar relation to what "ISIS" is to Islam IMO. He has desire for a real KKK. Very extreme views, whether it be "ISIS" blowing up many mosques and Muslims or Dylann shooting down fellow Christians.

 

[KSaiyu]

I will tell you why you are "expected to change".

1) You are basing your "facts" from a far fetched notion that the original Islam is in fact the one ISIS follow
2) You are resorting quite often to hearing only what you wish to hear and blatently ignoring everything else; something that has been picked up by myself and indeed others right here on this forum
3) When a fact is presented before you, you tend to counter it with a wholly unrelated "fact" from a less than credible source.
4) You seem to have nothing more than a basic understanding of "British Islam" as you put it and yet demand it to be reformed.


"British Islam" on the other hand:
1) Does not judge you for who you are.
2) Promotes voting and standing up to make a change to make britain a great place again
3) Teaches to be proud of religion and to be proud to be British
4) Only asks to be allowed to practise religion in peace, nothing more.

He was declared sane after IIRC. Similar relation to what "ISIS" is to Islam IMO. He has desire for a real KKK. Very extreme views, whether it be "ISIS" blowing up many mosques and Muslims or Dylann shooting down fellow Christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Psychiatric_evaluation

Again, what does that have to do with Christianity? Specifically Christianity in America.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

You need to do further research as you are comparing the actions of a man with a personality disorder with everything British Islam has either enabled or refused to condemn.

So it's okay for one man's actions to be written off as not being representative of the whole population, but in the event of another man's actions, the entire population needs to change and earn the trust of the community?

 

[Saidur_Ali]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Behring_Breivik#Psychiatric_evaluation

Again, what does that have to do with Christianity? Specifically Christianity in America.

Still declared sane by the court after the evaluation.

What does these attacks in France, Tunisia and Kuwait have to do with Islam specifically British Islam? (That is the point)

 

[KSaiyu]

Still declared sane by the court after the evaluation.

What does these attacks in France, Tunisia and Kuwait have to do with Islam specifically British Islam? (That is the point)

Where's the condemnation, the "not in our name" marches. What happens when the next terrorist is a Brit. You may have heard of our most famous export

 

[ECGadget]

Well since you have linked all those, I believe the posts quite rightly speak for themselves now. You pick on these incidents and call them "British Islam", "Islam" or "Original form of Islam" without any study, research or in depth analysis of any of them. For the time being, I rest my case.

 

[KSaiyu]

Well since you have linked all those, I believe the posts quite rightly speak for themselves now. You pick on these incidents and call them "British Islam", "Islam" or "Original form of Islam" without any study, research or in depth analysis of any of them. For the time being, I rest my case.

Yeah and a Brit rests his case.

 

[Saidur_Ali]

Where's the condemnation, the "not in our name" marches. What happens when the next terrorist is a Brit. You may have heard of our most famous export

Where's the condemnation, the "not in our name" marches for the attacks made by "Christians". What happens when the next terrorist is a Brit? Obviously to you stuff like this: Link and this: Link is not enough.

 

[KSaiyu]

Where's the condemnation, the "not in our name" marches for the attacks made by "Christians". What happens when the next terrorist is a Brit? Obviously to you stuff like this: Link and this: Link is not enough.

Start, but not enough. Hundreds for that compared to thousands in multiple cities for Gaza.

 

[ECGadget]

"A Brit rests his case"

In other words you are seperating me from you by saying you are a Brit and I am not? If so, I have nothing further to say to you. I am fasting and I do not wish to invalidate my fast by getting angry with that deep insult to me.