Attack on gas plant in France.

  • Thread starter Dennisch
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He was, but he forged it into a Caliphate. That is its beating heart, and what the West don't understand (or choose not to accept).

I said it's an "all too familiar backstory" about him because his is the story of so many Brit jihadi/jihadi brides. And we are powerless to stop them going.

Personally I follow the Jewish feeling. They know Europe is not safe, and are getting out while they can.
 
Freedom and democracy can be a bitch!
Basically. It's like the McCarthy era except it's not Cold at all. We're drawing up plans to monitor but it's too late. We may even see bans on Niqabs and Muslim protests like France has had to do in the not too distant future. That student's facebook post that I shared here I was told to report to the University but what's really the point.

New Labour. Gotta love em.

Moral of the story: "Multiculturalism" works, just ease it onto a population rather than opening the floodgates.

And so, feeling like Cassandra I post this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...s-cities-writes-NIGEL-FARAGE-leader-Ukip.html

Most up-voted comment? (Out of over 3200)

Thank you Nigel for all of your heroic efforts to return conrol of the United Kingdom to the British people.

But you know what they say. Jim'll fix it. Oh wait....
 
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"A Brit rests his case"

In other words you are seperating me from you by saying you are a Brit and I am not? If so, I have nothing further to say to you. I am fasting and I do not wish to invalidate my fast by getting angry with that deep insult to me.
Nice try but I'm used to this in real life, complete with the crying (London native don't you know).

You separated yourself from me by not replying "I'm a Brit too", instead jumping to the easy out of calling me a bigot so you could conveniently ignore how your argument was shot down. And so, you'll have to get over this "insult" and address the points. You understand now why British Islam is in such a state that you automatically went into an us vs them mode. You can also see why ISIS loves people like me who wake people up to the real state we are in. Just imagine how you'll react when people lie to you by saying you aren't British. As a Londoner you know people are a lot less friendly than I am being here.

I've treated you with nothing but respect and you have repeatedly insulted me, which I find very un-Islamic from some of the more spiritual Muslim friends I have.
 
Nice try but I'm used to this in real life, complete with the crying (London native don't you know).

You separated yourself from me by not replying "I'm a Brit too", instead jumping to the easy out of calling me a bigot so you could conveniently ignore how your argument was shot down. And so, you'll have to get over this "insult" and address the points. You understand now why British Islam is in such a state that you automatically went into an us vs them mode. You can also see why ISIS loves people like me who wake people up to the real state we are in. Just imagine how you'll react when people lie to you by saying you aren't British. As a Londoner you know people are a lot less friendly than I am being here.

I've treated you with nothing but respect and you have repeatedly insulted me, which I find very un-Islamic from some of the more spiritual Muslim friends I have.

Your post did imply that you were saying Gadget wasn't a Brit, it's hardly a massive leap to try and avoid the argument, maybe it was just a misunderstanding, or maybe you were just trying to get a reaction, I'd like to assume the former.

Plus, after reading through the past few page of posts, I'm failing to see how the majority posts has anything to do with the attack in France, but maybe I'm just missing the point.
 
This thread took off more than the other (sorry @TenEightyOne, I have no idea why that thread has so few posts considering the scale of British loss of life). If Gadget wants to ignore the post calling out his nonsense and say "I rest my case", I am perfectly entitled to say that, as a Brit who has just seen at least 30 of his countrymen killed by Islamic extremists that I rest my case as a Brit. It is up to Gadget how this is interpreted, and up to Gadget how he responds. Quite frankly I don't want to read about Ramadan rules in a thread about Islamic terrorism but I didn't throw a hissy fit.

What I hoped for was an acknowledgment that we are all in this together as Brits, and Islam in Britain needs to change.

What I expected is something along these lines.

Understand my situation:

- I've already been threatened by violence by someone saying "Islam will rule the world" whilst in an NHS uniform.
- I've shown a post by a student basically saying the end could be near, may we reunite in heaven.
- I go to a university that has known links to Islamic extremists and has elected someone to represent the students who wants to ban Islamophobia

A lot of the Brits here have no clue of the real world of multiculturalism and it looks like they've been caught with their pants down. What assurances can you give me that I won't be seeing a return of the London riots?
 
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All in the post history (I was told the fella who threatened me was just a random psycho when I posted it). I've also provided pictures when asked. I live in an area of London that has seen Counter Terror raid Mosques, lost fighters to Syria and had an Islamist arrested for tthe poppy day plot.

If you want I can take pictures of Southall, Greenford and Northolt in the week
 
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This thread took off more than the other (sorry @TenEightyOne, I have no idea why that thread has so few posts considering the scale of British loss of life). If Gadget wants to ignore the post calling out his nonsense and say "I rest my case", I am perfectly entitled to say that, as a Brit who has just seen at least 30 of his countrymen killed by Islamic extremists that I rest my case as a Brit. It is up to Gadget how this is interpreted, and up to Gadget how he responds. Quite frankly I don't want to read about Ramadan rules in a thread about Islamic terrorism but I didn't throw a hissy fit.

What I hoped for was an acknowledgment that we are all in this together as Brits, and Islam in Britain needs to change.

What I expected is something along these lines.

Understand my situation:

- I've already been threatened by violence by someone saying "Islam will rule the world" whilst in an NHS uniform.
- I've shown a post by a student basically saying the end could be near, may we reunite in heaven.
- I go to a university that has known links to Islamic extremists and has elected someone to represent the students who wants to ban Islamophobia

A lot of the Brits here have no clue of the real world of multiculturalism and it looks like they've been caught with their pants down. What assurances can you give me that I won't be seeing a return of the London riots?

If this was mostly directed at me, bare in mind I'm not taking sides with the main argument, mainly because I don't have time to explain my position fully, I agree and disagree with different points from both sides. I was simply pointing out to you that Gadgets interpretation of your post wasn't unreasonable, and that your post apparently didn't put the point across that you were trying to make, which you have some what cleared up now.

Carry on everyone :P
 
Ah, calling out MY nonsense... you seem to be ignoring every single post calling out what can only be described as far greater nonsense then, not only by myself but by quite a few people. Up to ME how it was interpreting but it looks like quite a few people interpreted it exactly as I did and quite rightly for what it was. As for a hissy fit, I recall calmly saying I have nothing more to say. And that is 30 of OUR countrymen. Make no mistake about that. Not YOUR countrymen, OUR countrymen.

You keep saying "Islam in britain needs to change" yet when presented with the facts of "Islam in Britain" or moreso Islam as a whole you continuously ignore it OR cite incidents that you take as a reflection on a whole.

... Everyone is quick to denounce them as un-Islamic (including Al Qaeda) therefore because deep down they know they are very Islamic...

I quite like this phrase of yours. That must mean that deep down Christian denominations know that the KKK is is VERY Christian. Oh wait...


In any case, I also apologise @TenEightyOne for being involved in taking this thread so off topic and I shall refrain from further posts here about anything other then what has happened in France.
 
The analogy was showing how Hitler managed to convince a large proportion of a country to be very scared of a population. He conflated a small amount of prejudice into a hatred that led to the biggest systematic genocide of the 20th century. <...> Essentially your other points are feeding the delusion that British Islam in its current state is not a problem and can continue without reformation by British Muslims. This is very, very dangerous for the reasons highlighted.

Your analogy doesn't play you any favors. The thing about prejudice and stereotypes is that they are unfounded and unjust; how could have the Jews reformed themselves so that they didn't become the target of the policies of the Nazist state?

Talking about "British Islam" is a bit like talking about "International Jewry". It's an external narration build on lies, stereotypes, and prominent examples that are unrepresentative of the reality of British Muslims or, in the case of your analogy, German and Polish Jews.

You also failed to adress how a pro-Gaza manifestation is in any way connected to radical Islam.

KSaiyu's rationality is skewed and he must be seeing this all wrong.

Amen, brother. Maybe you're not seeing it all wrong. And I am still inclined to think you are not ill-intentioned. But what do they say? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

If I show you this
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/6059/atrocities-muslim-world
And ask anyone here who has replied/liked posts to critically argue against the piece without mentioning "Gatestone Institute", what would be the replies.

Oh, Maker, do I really have to do it? Will it be okay if I will just proceed to prove the first four points as patently absurd?

If colonialism were the main problem, Muslims, too, still are, colonizers -- and not particularly "humanitarian" ones, at that.
Colonialism is the establishment, exploitation, maintenance, acquisition, and expansion of colony in one territory by a political power from another territory. It is a set of unequal relationships between the colonial power and the colony and often between the colonists and the indigenous population. What predominantly Muslim country does have colonies?

Islamic jihad and Islamic violence; the sanctioning of sex slavery; dehumanization of women; hatred and persecution of non-Muslims have been commonplace in the Islamic world ever since the inception of the religion. Deny everything and blame "the infidel."
Arguably, Christian holy war and Christian violence; dehumanization of women, hatred and persecution of non-Christians have been commonplace in the Christian world ever since the rise of the religion to predominance, but I never see these arguments raised against Christianity. You will excuse me if I won't give a lecture on the very specific context in which Islam rose to prominence and to pre-Islamic traditions, customs and laws (let's just say, however, that Islam reduced, rather than increased, the conflictuality in the Middle East).

But is it America that tells these men to treat their wives or sisters as less than fully human? If we want to criticize the West for what is going on in the Muslim world, we should criticize it for not doing more to stop these atrocities.
I dunno, it doesn't seem that America is doing a bang-up job at "stopping these atrocities". Or helping the arguably backwards Muslim world to embrace the superior liberal model, for that matter, since for the last 50 years they've been paying goons to stop any process of secularization that went against their interests in the area, and in the last twenty years have taken to bombing it directly. Perhaps if the US had minded their own business now we'd be looking at a different Muslim world. Who knows?

Trying to whitewash the damage that the Islamic ideology has done to the Muslim world, while putting the blame of Islamic atrocities on the West, will never help Muslims face their own failures and come up with progressive ways to resolve them.
This... This is just golden. What entitles the author of the article to think the goals of his culture should be a common denominator amongst all cultures? "They are not like us, so they failed"? Surely that is a positive outlook that will help finding solutions to the ever-increasing amount of problems the Middle East (which is about 10% of the Muslim world, 19% with North Africa) is facing! 'murica will fix it again!

Where's the condemnation, the "not in our name" marches. What happens when the next terrorist is a Brit. You may have heard of our most famous export

Since you seem to enjoy posting links than clicking them... I'll start embedding.











As for marching... It went out of fashion in the late 2000s, me thinks. And I think you should see why Muslims wouldn't be very inclined to actually march in the UK when there are people promoting a vicious narrative of the invading Muslim savage hell-bent on destroying Western civilization and replacing it with an endless rape motivated by religious zealotism.
 
@Dennisch There are times when I think I should take a break but it seems the message isn't getting through. It's known I'm one of the few "rightish" voices on this forum. If I don't post, you just get a load of apologism nonsense that keeps no-one safe. The fact is we've just experienced the worst terror attack since 7/7 and people are still attacking me

One person did this. It will take one person to do it in Westfield. Or a train station. Or a campus. Or a high street.

Then again, we could all go to the site and take selfies. I'm sick and tired of living in a place where I could be targeted any second and being told "calm down bigot". @ClydeYellow's post proves my point. I wonder if he would change his mind the time he is all alone and faced with someone telling him Islam is coming and not hearing a peep from the surrounding commuters as he's told he will be jumped when the time is right. Perhaps a break is a good idea.
 
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Are you letting everyone know who you are blocking?
No, he's decided that since the moderators aren't taking action against people who are disagreeing with him, he can symbolically block people from posting. They haven't done anything wrong but disagree with him.

it seems the message isn't getting through. It's known I'm one of the few "rightish" voices on this forum. If I don't post, you just get a load of apologism nonsense that keeps no-one safe.
Lose the messiah complex - you are not the lone voice of reason on the forums. You are not single-handedly holding back the tide of "apologism nonsense" or protecting anyone, despite what you would like to believe. You are intolerant, prejudiced and bigoted, and have already tried to force people to unquestionably adopt your beliefs and assimilate, and deny anyone who doesn't a sense of identity. You claim to be the voice of the political (and, by implication, the moral) right, but the only person here who is of any danger to anyone else is your.

It's your attitude that breeds extremism.
 
Is your attitude one that breeds extremism?
Not at all. Because unlike KSaiyu, I don't see the world in terms of us-versus-them, I don't consider myself to be right by default, and I don't consider tolerating other people to be an achievement.

I'd be careful not to generate a sense of there being justified extremism.
You mean like this?

Do you think you are softening @KSaiyu's stance on topics? Or do you think you are at all galvanising @KSaiyu's stance? Is your attitude one that breeds extremism?
Your post clearly insinuates that KSaiyu is entitled to his views, no matter how extreme they are, and that his position is justified if people are galvanising his attitude.

I can see what you are trying to do, but your words would have so much more weight if you actually stood for something rather than trying to pick apart others' posts with technicalities.
 
Your post clearly insinuates that KSaiyu is entitled to his views, no matter how extreme they are, and that his position is justified if people are galvanising his attitude.

No. I'm positing that your "net result" line of thinking might be a two way street.

I can see what you are trying to do, but your words would have so much more weight if you actually stood for something rather than trying to pick apart others' posts with technicalities.

You think I stand for nothing? I try really hard to constantly challenge my own thinking and strive for balance actually, but your interpretation of that is largely out of my control.

If you think it's a mere technicality I fear you've missed the point of your own words.
 
I'm sick and tired of living in a place where I could be targeted any second and being told "calm down bigot".

While an often-quoted (tongue-in-cheek) statistic is that you are more likely to die from hot water scalding than by a terrorist attack, no one is denying ugly realities like the hordes of the self-proclaimed ISIL or lone wolf terrorists exist, or that they don't pose a threat. Problem is, you and I disagree on the scope and reasons of radicalization, and the possible solutions.

Namely, I argue that what leads those people to take up arms against "the infidel" is not religion per se (if it were, a significant portion of my friends and colleagues wouldn't be friends and colleagues, but people looking for my scalp) and that therefore it's not Average Ali, or as you say, "British Islam", to be at the root of the problem.
What makes a terrorist is a plethora of social factors that's different from case to case, but generally leads to disenfranchisement and alienation. It may be poverty. It may be lack of opportunities. It may be the perception of racism. It may be fear of change, of the future, of a civilization that threatens the traditional way of life.
In this contexts, it is not hard for organizations that provide a strong sense of belonging (in this case: "you are a Muslim who adheres to the worldview of a specific cleric, or group of clerics") and a collective cause ("kill all the infidels, and go to heaven") to recruit and indoctrinate.

It's always the same patterns, the same mechanisms. Yesterday it was political terrorism, nowadays it's religious terrorism, tomorrow, who knows? all I know is that there will be some ****** bombing a subway station and people will all get riled up about whatever cause they'll say they were fighting for.

But I am quite tired of explaining this over and over to you. For further explaination on the idea, the APA has a nice article that sums it up, surely better than I could ever do.

I was planning to close my post here, but there's something I found funny about your eschewed reasoning, which is...

I wonder if he would change his mind the time he is all alone and faced with someone telling him Islam is coming and not hearing a peep from the surrounding commuters as he's told he will be jumped when the time is right. Perhaps a break is a good idea.

Sure, we can work by hypothetics, and I'd have to admit I'd be quite upset by something like this happening. However, it has never happened to me, nor to anybody I know, nor to anybody anybody I know knows (and we're already talking about quite a lot of people here!), and I have all reasons to believe it to be extremely unlikely to happen. Again, I do happen to have more than a few Muslim friends and colleagues (past and present), and they're generally very chill about this "religion" thing. I don't see them telling someone that they "will be jumped".

But perhaps you are talking from your own (ever-increasing) experience, in which case I must intrude: has it occurred to you that perhaps you didn't hear a peep from the surrounding commuters because they assumed that "special someone" warning you of the incoming Islam be mentally deranged?
 
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Your post clearly insinuates that KSaiyu is entitled to his views, no matter how extreme they are, and that his position is justified if people are galvanising his attitude.
That's not how I read it, I read it as @LeMansAid saying that regardless of @KSaiyu's opinions being valid or not, the way you (and I would presume myself and others) are responding to him would only further entrench his views by making him feel marginalized for what are earnestly held personal beliefs. I'll admit I've thought about this myself, and we can clearly see that despite 6 months of this forum being thread after thread about Islam and multiculturalism, all of our walls of texts have done nothing to sway his opinions.

You mean extremism from the ones not being tolerated? I'd be careful not to generate a sense of there being justified extremism.
You think I stand for nothing? I try really hard to constantly challenge my own thinking and strive for balance actually, but your interpretation of that is largely out of my control.
Hmm, sounds pretty extreme to say one should never hold extreme opinions ;)

I guess it sounds a bit like the paradox of intolerance; whether or not we as a tolerant society should tolerate the intolerant. We've had a disagreement about this over what would or should be the balanced position in regards to race politics, I guess I and people like prisonermonkeys would simply disagree that the answer lies between two extremes, particularly when it comes to social issues where what's considered extreme changes as society progresses.

It's something I'd like to discuss further in another thread as this one's already become derailed enough.
 
That's not how I read it, I read it as @LeMansAid saying that regardless of @KSaiyu's opinions being valid or not, the way you (and I would presume myself and others) are responding to him would only further entrench his views by making him feel marginalized for what are earnestly held personal beliefs. I'll admit I've thought about this myself, and we can clearly see that despite 6 months of this forum being thread after thread about Islam and multiculturalism, all of our walls of texts have done nothing to sway his opinions.

We all know that nothing any of us say will ever change his mind. Especially at this late stage of the game. The dude has made his mind up, and all responses fall into one of two categories: those that agree with his beliefs and thus confirm them, and those which disagree which are evidence of the ignorance of others and so confirm his beliefs as well.

But the point of the discussion is that it will be read by others, who may be on the fence, and would value rational discussion from both sides. Or all the sides, given that this stuff is rarely binary despite humans constant attempts to turn everything into an us vs. them thing.

If all people see is someone posting that Muslims are the enemy and are coming to get us, then you could see how they might rationally adopt that opinion, as the only information that they have access to tends to support that.

On the other hand, if alongside those posts they also find information about how actually there's a whole bunch of other factors going on, and that Muslims in general are about as dangerous as Christians in general, then they're faced with a choice about what they want to believe. Maybe they can go and read some more themselves, and ask some questions. Maybe they still end up believing that all towelheads are quietly working to undermine Western civilisation, slaughter the men and rape the women, but at least they'll have had the opportunity and information to come to a rational decision.

And hopefully whatever decision someone comes to, it's at least justified by the information that they had access to at the time. Hopefully if they learn more later they could maybe even decide to change, if it seems warranted.

And if you're unsure, then do what you think is best. For me, that's always going to be assuming that other humans are kind and helpful people unless proven otherwise. I'm not prepared to support anti-Muslim anything, when as far as I can tell they're more or less the same as everyone else. Most are nice, and a few are violent lunatics.

That description applies to pretty much any group of a reasonable size on the planet that I can think of. When you have 1.6 billion in a group, it almost guarantees that some of them are going to be bat-🤬 insane.
 
@DennischIt's
known I'm one of the few "rightish" voices on this forum. If I don't post, you just get a load of apologism nonsense that keeps no-one safe.

I AM THE VOICE OF THE RIGGGGHHHHTT!!!!! ALL LISTEN TO ME!!!!

Sorry but rather than an actual valid point all I am getting from this is "I am right, I am wrong". Citation needed on that point of yours y'know?

person did this. It will take one person to do it in Westfield. Or a train station. Or a campus. Or a high street.

Same point, whilst you detail how you've had bad experiences and run in with nutters... they exist everywhere. They are not confined to one particular religion. One person can do just about anything, with the right motive regardless of ethnicity or religion.

Then again, we could all go to the site and take selfies. I'm sick and tired of living in a place where I could be targeted any second and being told "calm down bigot". @ClydeYellow's post proves my point. I wonder if he would change his mind the time he is all alone and faced with someone telling him Islam is coming and not hearing a peep from the surrounding commuters as he's told he will be jumped when the time is right. Perhaps a break is a good idea.

Islam isn't ISIS. Sounds to me you listen too much to the idiots as well. If we're fighting ISIS we're fighting a small but extremely lethal group of fanatics. Not over a billion Muslims.

EDIT: And in a related story closer to home:
 
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people to take up arms against "the infidel" is not religion per se (if it were, a significant portion of my friends and colleagues wouldn't be friends and colleagues, but people looking for my scalp) and that therefore it's not Average Ali, or as you say, "British Islam", to be at the root of the problem.
What makes a terrorist is a plethora of social factors that's different from case to case, but generally leads to disenfranchisement and alienation. It may be poverty. It may be lack of opportunities. It may be the perception of racism. It may be fear of change, of the future, of a civilization that threatens the traditional way of life.

IMO the ISIS terrorists are the richest, best educated elite of the Sunni world, dispossessed by the west from their control of Iraq, and now firmly on the path to reclaiming what they righteously feel to be theirs. Now, nothing will dissuade them from their mission except reestablishment of the Caliphate, ejection of all westerners from their lands, as well as subjugation of the Shia whom they see as inferior mud-men. The US and Britain, guilty of placing the Sunni in this unenviable position, adopt a passive-aggressive position of net support for these Sunni elite in order to expiate our sins of commission. We have come to accept the Sunni as the rightful majority, and would see their lands and titles restored. We will again ally with them when the time comes, as we see they are in fact realists at the end of the day, and are only using religion, properly, as a weapon in what they see as a just war.
 
Oh people actually still think we're not at war. Cute.

Sorry to jump back to the first page, but I had to ask, do you feel you are at war? What is your offence and defence? and, how are you attacked. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your original statement, just curious as to your perception of things.

edit: amended typo's... seems the R doesn't work so well on my other keyboard!
 
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Just dropping in for a fly by.

Educate yourselves lads. There's a whole world out there.

That was an interesting exchange between Wondering, who thought the Tunisia attack was down to ISIS trying to destabilize the regime, and the moderator AbuMubarek who said, "most muslims attack these tourists NOT to destablize the region but to remove the fahsha from the lands of the muslims".
 
A bit worried about you but it is good to see you trying to educate yourself and understanding there is a whole world out there. Good to see you broadening your horizons and hopefully in time you will understand the world better.
No one has the balls to say this but you are a traitor to the West and everything we stand for. And no it's not because you're a Muslim so don't cry over that.

@Dotini Quite interesting, although you have to read some of the quotes in Arabic on social media to see how bad it is here (Britain). Also interesting how the post was deleted there - the thought police know no language!
 
No one has the balls to say this but you are a traitor to the West and everything we stand for. And no it's not because you're a Muslim so don't cry over that.

@Dotini Quite interesting, although you have to read some of the quotes in Arabic on social media to see how bad it is here (Britain). Also interesting how the post was deleted there - the thought police know no language!
Good to hear that from someone like yourself 👍, I must be on the right path...

Reading some of them extreme views in the thread you linked, I find a striking resemblance to you which worries me and I'm sure others on here.
 
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