Attack on magazine Charlie Hebdo in Paris.

[Dennisch]

Yet another social degenerate crawls out of their hole.... sick 🤬

Apparently he is the one who shot the police officer yesterday.

And reports that he has surrendered. But that's unconfirmed for now.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

i just don't understand why you bring up questions of law unrelated to the killing of the cartoonists.

Perhaps you would do well to read the entire discussion, then.

I noticed that a lot of politicians framed the attacks as "an attack on free speech" and "an attack on our values", which I found to be hypocritical given that one of our values is multiculturalism, but it's apparently okay to do something people consider to be blasphemy so long as you hide behind your right to freedom of speech as it apparently trumps their right to freedom from religious persecution.

 

[Joel]

Perhaps you would do well to read the entire discussion, then.

I noticed that a lot of politicians framed the attacks as "an attack on free speech" and "an attack on our values", which I found to be hypocritical given that one of our values is multiculturalism, but it's apparently okay to do something people consider to be blasphemy so long as you hide behind your right to freedom of speech as it apparently trumps their right to freedom from religious persecution.

Who is being persecuted by satirical cartoons?

Rights don't trump other rights, rights trump things that aren't rights but might be polite or prudent things to do. It's polite and prudent not to draw or write blasphemous things about religious figures. You don't have a right to live your life without ever having someone else say something you consider blasphemous. If the cartoons were explicitly hate speech and drawn to incite hatred or genocide of muslims that's not the same thing (that's "fire" in a crowded theatre), and in most countries is illegal.

Yes, muslims in France have a right to not be persecuted for their religion. If Charlie Hebdo refused to hire muslims or created cartoons that were meant to incite genocide of muslims that would be persecution. Drawing something satirical that a muslim may find offensive is just that, offensive. It's not persecution. You know what is persecution? Being massacred for a cartoon you drew or something you wrote. That's why this is an affront to our rights, because one side is a cartoon that might have offended some people, and the other is people being murdered in cold blood for doing nothing more than exercising their right to freedom of speech.

It's not about one right trumping another. Charlie Hebdo's cartoons violated nobody's rights, and nobody was persecuted by them. Their rights to life and free speech were violated when they were killed by lunatics who are completely irrational when it comes to their faith.

 

[doblocruiser]

For the ones that would like to follow everything in English:

 

[Brend]

Who is being persecuted by satirical cartoons?

Spewing religious and fascist bias is still just that, regardless if it's a funny looking Muhammad or a serious ridicule of him.

 

[Carbonox]

Perhaps you would do well to read the entire discussion, then.

I noticed that a lot of politicians framed the attacks as "an attack on free speech" and "an attack on our values", which I found to be hypocritical given that one of our values is multiculturalism, but it's apparently okay to do something people consider to be blasphemy so long as you hide behind your right to freedom of speech as it apparently trumps their right to freedom from religious persecution.

I think multiculturalism will be the next Western 'value' to be thrown in garbage if the current trend of certain minorities segregating themselves from society continues.

 

[Dotini]

I think multiculturalism will be the next Western 'value' to be thrown in garbage if the current trend of certain minorities segregating themselves from society continues.

France has been a multicultural nation for a long time. But insular Muslim communities do tend to form, and others fear to go there. Marine Le Pen has stated that immigrants must respect the values of the French Republic, and her party appears to be in the lead to win the next election.

 

[Joel]

I think multiculturalism will be the next Western 'value' to be thrown in garbage if the current trend of certain minorities segregating themselves from society continues.

Thank god we're better than those uncivilized countries in the middle east that persecute people for their faith or where they come from!

Spewing religious and fascist bias is still just that, regardless if it's a funny looking Muhammad or a serious ridicule of him.

Not entirely sure what you mean here, do you agree or disagree that the cartoons were persecution?

 

[Famine]

I noticed that a lot of politicians framed the attacks as "an attack on free speech" and "an attack on our values", which I found to be hypocritical given that one of our values is multiculturalism, but it's apparently okay to do something people consider to be blasphemy so long as you hide behind your right to freedom of speech as it apparently trumps their right to freedom from religious persecution.

"Multiculturalism", again, doesn't mean the adaptation of the society at large to the cultural practices of smaller societies, rather allowing smaller societies to retain their cultural identity within the larger society so long as their practices are not immoral (or, failing that, illegal - though that's a poor subsititute).

It's not against the rules of our larger societies to draw pictures of the prophet, but we allow Muslims not to draw the prophet if they don't want to. It's not against our rules to eat bacon, but we allow Muslims (and Jews) not to eat bacon if they don't want to. It is against our rules to force a teenage girl into a marriage, so we don't allow people to do that even if they want to as part of their religion or culture.


I don't know what "freedom from religious persecution" is or how it's a right, but from what I can make out I don't think that a non-adherent to the religion doing something the religion doesn't permit qualifies as religious persecution. Ridiculing belief isn't the same thing as, for example, being executed for apostasy - or rubbish like this.

 

[Furinkazen]

Interesting article:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ntolerant-history-bloodshed-muslims?CMP=fb_gu

 

[Carbonox]

Thank god we're better than those uncivilized countries in the middle east that persecute people for their faith or where they come from!

Well, you certainly got the uncivilized part right.

As for our countries - heh, obviously the leftist politicians are going to feel good for how tolerant they are for allowing immigrants to segregate themselves in those ghettoes where no public workers, or in some cases, any Westerners in the first place, ever dare to go. Of course (for PR's sake?) they're going to condemn the worst terrorist attacks, but never offer any proper solutions for pre-emptively stopping more of them from happening in their own country. They see nothing wrong with the spread of anti-Western ideologies, but as soon as fed up groups like Pegida pop up, those politicians - led by Merkel, of course - show up to damn them to hell. And why wouldn't they? Clearly, Islamization of Europe doesn't bother them at all, as long as the Muslims vote left at least.

 

[Joel]

Well, you certainly got the uncivilized part right.

As for our countries - heh, obviously the leftist politicians are going to feel good for how tolerant they are for allowing immigrants to segregate themselves in those ghettoes where no public workers, or in some cases, any Westerners in the first place, ever dare to go. Of course (for PR's sake?) they're going to condemn the worst terrorist attacks, but never offer any proper solutions for pre-emptively stopping more of them from happening in their own country. They see nothing wrong with the spread of anti-Western ideologies, but as soon as fed up groups like Pegida pop up, those politicians - led by Merkel, of course - show up to damn them to hell. And why wouldn't they? Clearly, Islamization of Europe doesn't bother them at all, as long as the Muslims vote left at least.

Keep on missing the point. This is getting W&N-esque.

Rational and mature adults in the western world aren't ready to throw our friends, classmates, neighbours, coworkers, wives, husbands, in laws, girlfriends, boyfriends, or kebab shop owners out of the country based on some crazies. You still aren't seeing the irony of condemning countries like Saudi Arabia for their culture and laws, then suggesting that "we" kick "them" out of our countries.

 

[Dennisch]

I think multiculturalism will be the next Western 'value' to be thrown in garbage if the current trend of certain minorities segregating themselves from society continues.

I think Western society is strong enough not to fall for this.

Prime example is that just now on Dutch TV a reporter in Paris who is near the scene at the supermarket. He is interviewing people there, and if there is one thing to say about it, it's that it is a very multicultural neighborhood. And all of those interviewed, black, white, Arab, muslim all state the same thing.

What is happening will not tear society apart.
If it gets uploaded I'll post the video.

 

[kennylmao]

Wow. You guys are still arguing about freedom of speech.
Seems like people in free countries are forgetting the value of free speech. Shame.
Here's my opinion, @prisonermonkeys

Absolute free speech
Pros: Unlikely to be abused towards tyranny (If it still happens well tough luck. At least in the USA there's the Second Amendment.)
Cons: People often get offended

Limited free speech
Pros: People don't get offended as often
Cons: Can be abused towards tyranny

Pick your poison. (If you think there is anything incorrect about my views, please tell me.)

 

[Dennisch]

You guys are still arguing about freedom of speech

Corner stone of our society. That's why the discussion is ongoing.

Edit.

Apparently these are the 2 suspects of the hostage situation in Paris.

 

[Joel]

Wow. You guys are still arguing about freedom of speech.
Seems like people in free countries are forgetting the value of free speech. Shame.

It seems like one person is stating they don't believe free speech trumps their idea of freedom from persecution and everyone else is disagreeing with them...

 

[kennylmao]

It seems like one person is stating they don't believe free speech trumps their idea of freedom from persecution and everyone else is disagreeing with them...

Edit: Wow. This one guy just doesn't get the importance of free speech! Sheesh!

 

[Dennisch]

If it gets uploaded I'll post the video.

I've tweeted RTL news (Apparently twitter has its usefulness) and they are in the process of uploading it.

 

[tarnheld]

I noticed that a lot of politicians framed the attacks as "an attack on free speech" and "an attack on our values", which I found to be hypocritical given that one of our values is multiculturalism, but it's apparently okay to do something people consider to be blasphemy so long as you hide behind your right to freedom of speech as it apparently trumps their right to freedom from religious persecution.

I don't think it is hypocritical to call this an attack on free speech and our values, as the attackers killed without fair trial. You don't do that, wouldn't you agree? And Charlie Hebdo had their share of fair trials because of their work, some went favorable for them, some went against them. So courts have weighed in considerable cases between freedom of speech and discrimination. That's how justice works. You seem to have made up your mind that nothing can excuse hurting other peoples feelings.

Spewing religious and fascist bias is still just that, regardless if it's a funny looking Muhammad or a serious ridicule of him.

As you can see in this post the cartoonists didn't spew racist stuff.

 

[doblocruiser]

Keep on missing the point. This is getting W&N-esque.

Rational and mature adults in the western world aren't ready to throw our friends, classmates, neighbours, coworkers, wives, husbands, in laws, girlfriends, boyfriends, or kebab shop owners out of the country based on some crazies. You still aren't seeing the irony of condemning countries like Saudi Arabia for their culture and laws, then suggesting that "we" kick "them" out of our countries.

Rational and mature adults dare to see and say we have a big problem within certain cultures and that those who add nothing positive to a country or are just there to abuse the social system should leave. If you value the values and law system of a country you are more then welcome as a foreigner with your culture. Do certain parts of your culture not fit within society, you should give up on them and not trying to force that upon others to gain certain rights. It's called adapting and respecting the country you come into!

If I see the hard working police officers which include quite a few Arabs I am actually proud to see that they stand for France and it's values. If I see those unemployed lazy ones who live on benefit but have a baby factory at home to exploit social system I am disgusted. The pre-cities are one big mess runned by gangs. It's really a great addition to our society, isn't it?

 

[Dennisch]

If I see all those unemployed lazy ones who live on benefit but have a baby factory at home to exploit social system

I have 3 examples (8 kids, 5 kids, 4 kids) of those in my close vicinity. They're all whities, like me.
Being a lazy mooching turd in society isn't bound by race or religion.

 

[doblocruiser]

True @Dennisch but the comparision was made with the Arab police officers from another cultural background.


Example

French nationality -> criminal act / abuse system -> punished by law

French nationality + Other Nationality -> criminal act / abuse system -> Drop French nationality and leave

Other nationality -> criminal act / abuse system -> leave

Unable to speak basic language after 1 year -> leave
Not willing to search for work -> leave
Not willing to integrate -> leave
No valid papers when entering France -> no access

Restrict movement of money outside of France until foreigner is well intergrated.


For criminal act I don't mean a speeding ticket

 

[tarnheld]

Wow. You guys are still arguing about freedom of speech.

At least it's more civilized than discussing religious stuff or muslim culture.

 

[Carbonox]

Rational and mature adults dare to see and say we have a big problem within certain cultures and that those who add nothing positive to a country or are just there to abuse the social system should leave. If you value the values and law system of a country you are more then welcome as a foreigner with your culture. Do certain parts of your culture not fit within society, you should give up on them and not trying to force that upon others to gain certain rights. It's called adapting and respecting the country you come into!

If I see the hard working police officers which include quite a few Arabs I am actually proud to see that they stand for France and it's values. If I see all those unemployed lazy ones who live on benefit but have a baby factory at home to exploit social system I am disgusted. The pre-cities are one big mess runned by gangs. It's really a great addition to our society, isn't it?

Baby factory puts it really well.

Unfortunately, it stops being funny when you realize that those babies are going to grow into adults and the cycle is going to continue, possibly even faster than before obviously because their population's going up all this damn time.

 

[Dotini]

British spy boss says expect more and bigger attacks very soon.

http://news.yahoo.com/britains-mi5-chief-warns-al-qaeda-syria-planning-220625665.html

 

[Carbonox]

Back for the cartoons themselves, this one sums up the reaction.

 

[Furinkazen]

Back for the cartoons themselves, this one sums up the reaction.

Reaction of who? The two nutjobs?

 

[Carbonox]

Reaction of who? The two nutjobs?

A hyper-sensitive lad representing a religion/ideology known as "Islam".

 

[Furinkazen]

A hyper-sensitive lad representing a religion/ideology known as "Islam".

Who wasn't representing Islam. You do know he killed a Muslim in the attack himself?

 

[Lucas]

A bit late to the "belief" and "freedom of speech" party, but we are talking about different rules. The extremists justify killing people for mocking Muhammad because it goes with their beliefs. And the victims don't justify extremists killing them because it goes against their beliefs of freedom of speech and "I can get away with anything that may offend one and doesn't hurt them".

Arguing which one is right is pointless, because our beliefs say we are right and they should not hurt us. It is, in my opinion, common sense, but only because I was raised that way, and if I was raised in some Muslim extremist society, I would think differently for sure. The only way I could blame them is if I knew Islam at least one bit better than I do, and understand if there is anything in that religion that justifies, from its point of view, that it's alright to react in such a violent way.