Bored of GT5

[diegorborges]

I tried online and it's a huge joke IMO. It needs some sort of matchmaking system, like in GT5P. I don't always have time to waste searching for rooms that interest me.

And yeah, it may be great having friends, but realistically, I'm sure you can't race always race them whenever you're online and when it's convient for you.

Matchmaking is good for some people but it doesn't appeal to everyone. Having it as option would be the best imho.

It's a bit selfish to say like this: "I don't always have time to waste searching for rooms that interest me." What's so bad about looking through the room titles?

 

[Kratos_Q8]

Agreed. This is a forum for discussion, both positive and negative. Some people treat this as a place where only GT/PD/Kaz worship is allowed. I'm a long time GT fan, I've been playing the series since the very first GT game... yet, I'm bored of GT5. The shallow A-Spec mode, the idiotic B-Spec AI, the lack of driving missions from GT4, the lack of manufacturer events from previous GT games, the lack of decent reward cars for golding events, the grinding required for credits... these all add up to create a game that is not as good as previous GT games.

The physics, graphics and premium cars are obviously better than previous GT games, but what is the point of them when you don't have a cohesive GT mode to use them in? Now, I do find driving fun, but I need a goal, I liked the progression in previous GT games, GT5 just doesn't have that progression and cohesiveness that previous GT games had. GT5 would have been a vastly better game if PD had focused on creating a smaller, more cohesive game with an extensive GT mode, a balanced premium car list, a nice balanced selection of tracks and an all round more quality feel. If GT5 had been like a modern day GT3, it would have been much, much better.

I hang around here because I'm a long time fan of the Gran Turismo series and I'm hoping PD will listen to us long time fans and provide a better GT mode, a more balanced car and track list and bring back the soul of Gran Turismo in GT6.

100% agree with you mate / some people here and PD need to know that not all of us enjoy online racing

 

[Kratos_Q8]

For one, why is there even a Bspec series? Did anyone request it?

thats what i ask my self every day

 

[1241Penguin]

It's a bit selfish to say like this: "I don't always have time to waste searching for rooms that interest me." What's so bad about looking through the room titles?

Many rooms have misleading titles. I often join rooms that says "500pp races" and then end up have to scavenge for my 650 pp race car. I think it's safe to say that there's a very small percentage of organized racing in GT5 online.

Proper events with regulations like in GT5P is what they need.

 

[TokoTurismo]

I hope GT6 will be only about players driving, like in GT1, GT2, and GT3. No more A-spec and B-spec, just players getting behind the wheel and controller and racing through that event list with fundom. I miss that so much.

 

[C_Raccoon23]

Matchmaking is good for some people but it doesn't appeal to everyone. Having it as option would be the best imho.

It's a bit selfish to say like this: "I don't always have time to waste searching for rooms that interest me." What's so bad about looking through the room titles?

Yes, I do agree that it should be added, and co-exist with Open Lobby. I'm not saying it's either one or the other.

As for the last part, my gaming time is limited and I honestly feel like I'm wasting time on a lot of occasions looking through lists for a room instead of racing. This is worse when I feel like racing a specific car, but can't find a suitable room for it. In other online racing games I've played, there is a matchmaking system to get you in a race quicker.

Prologue had pre-set rooms with PP limits and realistic tire settings, and I expected GT5 to at least have something similar to it. It's reasonable to expect something in a demo to appear in the full game. But for whatever unknown reason, it was dropped.

 

[GranTurismo916]

No. But I'm bored of you.

👍

Bravo.

 

[diegorborges]

Yes, I do agree that it should be added, and co-exist with Open Lobby. I'm not saying it's either one or the other.

As for the last part, my gaming time is limited and I honestly feel like I'm wasting time on a lot of occasions looking through lists for a room instead of racing. This is worse when I feel like racing a specific car, but can't find a suitable room for it. In other online racing games I've played, there is a matchmaking system to get you in a race quicker.

Prologue had pre-set rooms with PP limits and realistic tire settings, and I expected GT5 to at least have something similar to it. It's reasonable to expect something in a demo to appear in the full game. But for whatever unknown reason, it was dropped.

Yes, I agree with you in some part because being a man that works for 2 companies and have a house to pay bills and a wife that demands attention, my time is kinda limited too.

And I'm always looking for the good rooms. I agree with you that some days its annoying to enter 2-3 bad rooms before finding a good one.

I think, for now... a better and more complete filter for room search would help us in this aspect.

The first thing I would want its to filter rooms by tire type. 👍

Many rooms have misleading titles. I often join rooms that says "500pp races" and then end up have to scavenge for my 650 pp race car. I think it's safe to say that there's a very small percentage of organized racing in GT5 online.

Proper events with regulations like in GT5P is what they need.

And this unfortunately its people's faults... when I create a 450pp sports soft room, that's exactly the restrictions you'll get. But we can't do much about it now... we seriously need a better room filter.

 

[tpark103]

Haven't really been into it for a few weeks. Still going strong on all the web sources, hoping for something refreshing and new to bring some excitement back. Other than that I log an daily check my accounts, chat with friends, give a tickets and colors to those who race my bspec bobs and log off.....

 

[SlipZtrEm]

I hope GT6 will be only about players driving, like in GT1, GT2, and GT3. No more A-spec and B-spec, just players getting behind the wheel and controller and racing through that event list with fundom. I miss that so much.

As much as I'm not a fan of B-Spec (because I know I'm not buying a game to have it race for me), I didn't mind it in GT4 because it was at least optional. Being able to swap with drivers was a great way to encourage people to at least do part of the 24H enduro.

My GT5 save has sat at the same percentage complete for nearly a year now. While technically, it is a fantastic game in the series, it's probably the one I've had the least fun with (GT2 holds the fun crown). New physics or not, a lot of the Standards don't grab me since they've been with us for nearly a decade in their current forms. Racing online is fun with the group of people I typically run with, but when they're not around, the only real use I have for GT5 any more is Photomode (which still is fantastic), and hotlapping at the 'Ring or Spa, or some of my "user-created" (heh) tracks. The addition of a livery system (unlikely) or more wide-spread leaderboards (easier) would draw me in, but I've become tired of the features that artificially extend play instead of fostering it; the UCD system and the bare-bones car selection in Arcade Mode, the paint system, etc etc. The login bonus doesn't lure me either - I have 16 million, and nearly every car, plus only missing about 150 unique paint chips.

I stick to my previous sentiments - find something else that interests you, and let it distract you from GT for a while. Eventually, you may get the urge to play again, and chances are you won't be bored because of that. Or, alternately, something else might even get you just as excited and interested as GT5 once had you, which isn't a bad thing either.

 

[Mr P510]

Hopefully,with the extended time between updates PD will have something more substantial for us to renew a bit more interest.

I can't help feeling theres something pretty good in the pipeline.

 

[Stephen220378]

GT2, a 13 year old game, still keeps me coming back for more and more. How come? Nostalgic reasons? No. But rather because of an extensive and enjoyable career mode and a great selection of cars and tuning options. The same goes for GT3 and GT4, besides the latter. Not to mention the fact that none of them had online multiplayer. X-link doesn't count.

So, yes, I'm mainly bored with GT5 because of the shallow and short A-spec career, as well the endless grinding for money and progression. Two things that has really put me off the game. As I said, it has never been an issue in previous games. I still play them from time to time. Can't see myself doing the same with GT5. It's dull and boring, unless it's drifting or hot-lapping in my Caterham at the 'Ring.

Absolute rubbish, it's because they're old games that you haven't played for years and we all know that there's nothing like putting in an old favourite in the console every now and then. Are you claiming GT2's career mode has a 13 year lifespan? Bollocks, you'll be doing the exact same with GT5 when it's 6,7,8,9 etc years old.

So yes you're bored with a game after 1 and a half years of playing it. Just for the record NO GT game has ever had an interesting career mode, in fact driving games career modes in general are dull with maybe the slight exception of Codemasters games but even then. The endless grinding had been completely eradicated with high payout seasonals so that's no longer an excuse, christ you can get 20m cr for a couple of hours racing on the Nurburgring these days.

For one, why is there even a Bspec series? Did anyone request it?

thats what i ask my self every day

I used to hate B-Spec and when I say hate, I mean HATE

But I actually find the B-Spec seasonals fairly interesting now, play B-Spec like it's meant to be played and get involved without overpowering your cars in races and it's quite enjoyable

 

[TokoTurismo]

As much as I'm not a fan of B-Spec (because I know I'm not buying a game to have it race for me), I didn't mind it in GT4 because it was at least optional. Being able to swap with drivers was a great way to encourage people to at least do part of the 24H enduro.

My GT5 save has sat at the same percentage complete for nearly a year now. While technically, it is a fantastic game in the series, it's probably the one I've had the least fun with (GT2 holds the fun crown). New physics or not, a lot of the Standards don't grab me since they've been with us for nearly a decade in their current forms. Racing online is fun with the group of people I typically run with, but when they're not around, the only real use I have for GT5 any more is Photomode (which still is fantastic), and hotlapping at the 'Ring or Spa, or some of my "user-created" (heh) tracks. The addition of a livery system (unlikely) or more wide-spread leaderboards (easier) would draw me in, but I've become tired of the features that artificially extend play instead of fostering it; the UCD system and the bare-bones car selection in Arcade Mode, the paint system, etc etc. The login bonus doesn't lure me either - I have 16 million, and nearly every car, plus only missing about 150 unique paint chips.

I stick to my previous sentiments - find something else that interests you, and let it distract you from GT for a while. Eventually, you may get the urge to play again, and chances are you won't be bored because of that. Or, alternately, something else might even get you just as excited and interested as GT5 once had you, which isn't a bad thing either.

Oh I still play GT5, and had lots of fun playing it, taking photos in it, and loving it to this day. I don't want to ruin those who like B-spec just because I don't want it, but I really liked GT4's A-spec and B-spec in one event, like you mentioned. I hope GT6 is like again, it'll make everything alot easier. 👍 Still hoping for the old GTs interfaces to become a free roam world in GT6, offline or online.

 

[MockngBrd]

i'm bored of GT5.... it's just not FUN anymore... sigh

No its not a problem at all, because choice exists. A factor that may well become an issue for PD and Sony when the next release if GT is out, because as things stand right now that will be the first title in the series I will not be buying at launch (if at all), and as I bought my PS2 and PS3 principally for GT titles that may also put my purchase of a PS4 at doubt.

GT5 has done enough 'damage' for me to know that its an extremely unlikely day one purchase of GT6 and or a PS4 for me; on my own does that make a difference, of course not, but I'm certainly not on my own about this.


Scaff

im with you there'. i bought my PS2/PS3 just for GT. And even bought a rig for GT5... i prob won't be so keen to jump on a PS4 in the future. rather spend the $$$ on bits for the real car


i wish the track creator let us create point to point tracks, like a touge mountain pass. im not into hardcore time attack or racing. I just like to take interesting cars out for a spin, but somehow, it just isn't fun to do so in GT anymore... maybe it's the long loading times

 

[Terronium-12]

Are you claiming GT2's career mode has a 13 year lifespan? Bollocks, you'll be doing the exact same with GT5 when it's 6,7,8,9 etc years old.

It certainly has a longer shelf life than GT5's.

So yes you're bored with a game after 1 and a half years of playing it. Just for the record NO GT game has ever had an interesting career mode

Going to disagree there. GT2, 3, and 4 had very interesting career modes. The races actually felt like your in-game career was being led up a ladder. In 5, it's completely non-linear and leads nowhere worth remembering.

in fact driving games career modes in general are dull with maybe the slight exception of Codemasters games but even then. The endless grinding had been completely eradicated with high payout seasonals so that's no longer an excuse

Simply because the payout has increased doesn't change the fact that you do have to grind in GT5. Whether it be for racing suits, helmets, trying to get a car to appear in the UCD.

christ you can get 20m cr for a couple of hours racing on the Nurburgring these days.

Sounds like grinding to me.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

iRacing... $90 every year for a kick off, and this with what I would call an inferior game. That $90 subscription doesn't even cover paying for even the entire list of their abizmal car list, the most interesting car there is probably the Volkswagen Jetta, or it may as well be. 'No' I haven't tried it, why would I try it when committing to it would cost me $90 a year? That's beyond idiotic, its pure lunacy, especially for the lack of substance it has.

I like PC gaming and mods, but there has to be something to work with, and even with the (possible) mods, these games don't impressive as much as they should be given the media they use. GT5 has no rivals on the PC.

EDIT: And you call GT5 a half-assed game? Please.

...where the hell? Did you pull that number out of thin air or is that AUD (I doubt the latter since it's virtually on par with USD currently), because it is not nearly that much for a subscription. Also when you consider the fact that there are ways for one to get the payment to drop significantly just by playing the game.

I'm glad that you're saying "IMO" however there are parts to that no longer become opinion and then you go into the fact realm.

The issue I see is more so with people hating the fact that people dislike GT5.
If this site has taught me one thing, it is that I'm not simply a Gran Turismo fan but a sim racing fan in general. I prefer GT due to growing up with it, but I'm not one to make excuses for it when there is a better sim out there. I thought the main point for sim racers was to find the best game out there that one can race and get a close to the real thing as possible.

Saying GT5 has the best physics is like saying GT5 has the best F1 gaming, or sports car racing. I understand it's an opinion and preference, but realistically there other sims that PD crew wish they could be better than in the physics realm. The game doesn't even have a tire model but yet it supposedly has the best physics engine, though it is missing key parts to a full physics engine. Seems sort of like a paradox.

EDIT: Also why do people insist on making GT5 or just GT in general a dogma. Isn't the idea (again) to get the most out of sim racing.

 

[1241Penguin]

Absolute rubbish, it's because they're old games that you haven't played for years and we all know that there's nothing like putting in an old favourite in the console every now and then. Are you claiming GT2's career mode has a 13 year lifespan? Bollocks, you'll be doing the exact same with GT5 when it's 6,7,8,9 etc years old.

I've owned GT3+ only so I can't tell whether GT2 has a 13 year lifespan or not, but I can tell you that GT3's career mode has an eight year lifespan (since when I first got it), and GT4's career mode has a seven year lifespan.

I just popped in GT4 the other day and I spent more time on it than I regularly do with GT5.

So yes you're bored with a game after 1 and a half years of playing it. Just for the record NO GT game has ever had an interesting career mode,

This will differ per person, but I always thought that GT3, GT4, and hell, even GT5P had an interesting career mode.

in fact driving games career modes in general are dull with maybe the slight exception of Codemasters games but even then.

NFS Shift 1 has an interesting career mode to me. So is Forza 4's. So is NFSU2's. In fact, come to think of it, GT5's career mode is the only one that I sort of gave up on due to boredom. That said, I still play GT5 now, albiet only for about half an hour before I get bored again.

To say that driving games career modes are dull is an opinion that doesn't necessarily represent everyone's. Besides, as far as I can work out, most NFS and FM4 players are little kids, and being kids, realism doesn't matter to them. As long as it's fun, that's all they care about.

The endless grinding had been completely eradicated with high payout seasonals so that's no longer an excuse, christ you can get 20m cr for a couple of hours racing on the Nurburgring these days.

As T-12 pointed out, you're contradicting yourself here.

I used to hate B-Spec and when I say hate, I mean HATE

But I actually find the B-Spec seasonals fairly interesting now, play B-Spec like it's meant to be played and get involved without overpowering your cars in races and it's quite enjoyable

I can't stand losing a single B-Spec race. I'm not a sore loser, but with B-Spec, you get the sense that you've just wasted, like, 20 minutes of your life trying to get the idiot Bob around a track without crashing into a stationary object. At least with A-Spec, you do get a small feeling of fun after a racing, winning or not.

 

[HeXoSKEL3t0n]

Have to admit, I was starting to find gt5 quite boring from lv20 onwards... Till I stumbled upon online
Much more fulfilling to race online as compared to aspec or bspec, the gt5 ai is simply too boring, and there's too little events... And seasonals are abit boring, except for that spa and Sarthe bspec challenge and one of those challenging aspec ones, very intense.

 

[LMP787B]

If you are all looking for something fun to do then you should all try the weekly driving skills competition which can be found under the 'gran turismo 5' section of the forums. Thanks.

 

[1241Penguin]

Have to admit, I was starting to find gt5 quite boring from lv20 onwards... Till I stumbled upon online
Much more fulfilling to race online as compared to aspec or bspec, the gt5 ai is simply too boring, and there's too little events... And seasonals are abit boring, except for that spa and Sarthe bspec challenge and one of those challenging aspec ones, very intense.

If you can manage to find a good lobby full of skilled players, then you've passed the first challenge. The next challenge, however, is trying to keep on having fun for at least an hour before you get bored again. If you can't pass the second "challenge," then you're back to square one.

 

[SuperCobraJet]

And yeah, it may be great having friends, but realistically, I'm sure you can't race always race them whenever you're online and when it's convient for you.

Your comment, reveals the eventual and unavoidable circumstance I discovered years ago, racing online with the original Xbox and throughout the course of my online racing endeavors.

Percieved by many as, the perfect venue, online racing is not the cure-all, end-all to the single player mode.
You point out one big reason why.

With the release of GT4, I rediscovered, the absolute advantage of a great single player mode.

You play it completely at your convenience.

Scheduling conflicts this week?
No problem.
At times that one irreplaceable advantage, can make the difference in your enjoyment of the game, assuming it has a worthy single player aspect.

Racing online has its place and can be rewarding and enjoyable, but it can never replace the absolute convenience and enjoyment of a good single player mode.

 

[sesselpupser]

I was starting to get bored of GT5 until I got a G27 and discovered driving without the HUD, it's like an entirely new game. The problem now is that before I could forgive the cockpitless standards, but now I'm really disappointed that I can't enjoy a Nismo R32 S-Tune in the same way that I can 'enjoy' a variety of dull shopping trolleys. Also I now need to completely re-learn drifting techniques, I suspect car setup is more important than it was with the DS3, which sucks because I don't know the first thing about suspension or differential tuning! I suppose I need to read the guides in the tuning and drift forums.

Edit: as you can see, GT5 has basically become an entirely new game for me, I might even start a new profile... YES!

 

[Elconio]

If your're bored try this, https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=247737 if you're not first place then you have something to practice!

Also take totally stock cars (and tyres) round the Nurburgring, start with low powered cars about 120bhp and work your way up or do them in classes, ie Integra type R v Renaultsport megane v Focus ST and Ford GT v Merc SLS v 458italia v Aston V12 vantage v Lambo Gallardo etc race their ghosts and see which is fastest stock and as a bonus the replays are BRILLIANT, then take some photo's in them replays!

P.S ALL AIDS OFF! try ABS off too, totally different experience!

Keep you busy and happy for a while!👍

This (with a steering wheel) is exactly what i'm doing since gt5 came out. (abs=1) Brilliant to compare different cars. You can do it on different tracks of course.

P.S. My longest not-playing-gt5-time is 5 days.

Also another one mention to watch youtube video's (best motoring, topgear, EVOtv, etcetera) Example: Watch A. Senna in a nsx around suzuka and you want to do the same in the game!

Dunno why people say i did everything in this game there is nothing left.
You have 1000+cars x all the circuits in game + a track creator!! = Endless driving fun. You're never done with this game. This is the way i see it.

 

[AlexGTV]

Any game can get boring if you play it too much

Best post on the thread. Sums up my opinion.

 

[Barn One]

I love how folk defend the B.S. that is arcade mode, that WILL ruin your online driving setups and driving style should it be used often.
The lack of any kind of ranking system for drivers online also hurts this game.
The ONLY saving grace this game had was online, if it wasn't for that, it wouldn't have lasted as long as it has,period.
But here is the biggest reason why this game got boring and frustrating.
The lack of proper tuning and the extreme lack of car balance/ing.
For those of us that try setting up cars to be as close as possible whilst still being competitive, this game falls flat.
"1000" cars that mostly can't be raced together as the lack of tuning,proper weight,engine restrition,etc keep it from truly being useful.
The best racing in GT5 is one make racing and it got old a long time ago.

The A.I. or lack thereof is not even close to being good enough.
When you have to literally hinder your car just to make it feel competitive, that should show you just how empty this game was from release.
I race endurance races and long series style with no driving aids at all, full damage, basically as sim as possible and i'm feeling the grind.

You can't even balance the race car classes out properly as they come from to many different eras, (which sucks).
They seriously need to rework the ENTIRE games structure for the next one.
And the so called creator courses which are more correctly called track generator courses are simply not a good option for online racing.
They lack any real race track feel, making the experience feel somewhat sterile.

 

[Tornado]

Absolute rubbish, it's because they're old games that you haven't played for years and we all know that there's nothing like putting in an old favourite in the console every now and then. Are you claiming GT2's career mode has a 13 year lifespan? Bollocks, you'll be doing the exact same with GT5 when it's 6,7,8,9 etc years old.

That's funny. I could have sworn that I've played GT2 and (to a lesser extent) GT3 fairly consistently since the day I got them (though I admittedly have since completely abandoned the latter). Me and a friend were just Livestreaming some GT2 playtime last night.


But hey, you seem to know me better than I do.

So yes you're bored with a game after 1 and a half years of playing it. Just for the record NO GT game has ever had an interesting career mode

Oh? Once again thanks for clarifying everyone else's views for them, even when many of them have been saying the exact opposite from the start.

The endless grinding had been completely eradicated with high payout seasonals so that's no longer an excuse, christ you can get 20m cr for a couple of hours racing on the Nurburgring these days.

So you mean PD went back and redesigned the game economy from scratch, fixing all of the silly idiosyncrasies that they intentionally designed into the game and massively increasing the event amount so you have variety and don't have to just spam the best paying race?


Oh, wait. You mean the Band-Aid seasonals when combined with the Band-Aid multiplier means you don't have to constantly redo races as often? Yeah. That's still grinding.

 

[Samus]

Still to this day I wonder if anyone at PD noticed the problem of the second to last endurance race being level 35 and the final one being level 40 with no other offline races left to do in between. I still think nobody actually played the retail game through from scratch.

Also remember to begin with online wasn't even an option to gain XP and credits and it still isn't an option for someone without an internet connection. Neither are the fabled seasonal events. For someone who bought this game for the offline game only it's still utterly broken. The previous GT games were not broken as an offline game.

 

[Sselecta]

Absolute rubbish, it's because they're old games that you haven't played for years and we all know that there's nothing like putting in an old favourite in the console every now and then.

That might be true, but it does not change the fact that I actually play GT2 frequently even to this day.

Are you claiming GT2's career mode has a 13 year lifespan? Bollocks, you'll be doing the exact same with GT5 when it's 6,7,8,9 etc years old.

I didn't claim anything about GT2 career mode's lifespan. It most certainly isn't good for 13 years, however the overall replayability (with aformentioned factors included in the ''equation'') is still there after all those years.

So yes you're bored with a game after 1 and a half years of playing it.

I should've perhaps mentioned that I (finally) got the game last September. So, approximately, it has been good for only a couple of months whereas previous games lasted for several years.

Just for the record NO GT game has ever had an interesting career mode, in fact driving games career modes in general are dull with maybe the slight exception of Codemasters games but even then.

That's your opinion. Not fact.

The endless grinding had been completely eradicated with high payout seasonals so that's no longer an excuse, christ you can get 20m cr for a couple of hours racing on the Nurburgring these days.

Neither does it excuse the worst career mode in the history of Gran Turismo. That's the only reason why we even have Seasonal Events in the first place. It was an afterthought. Have you forgot?

I used to hate B-Spec and when I say hate, I mean HATE

But I actually find the B-Spec seasonals fairly interesting now, play B-Spec like it's meant to be played and get involved without overpowering your cars in races and it's quite enjoyable

B-Spec seasonals are welcome. But the cumpolsory B-Spec career mode is just plain awful in every aspect.

 

[JayDW]

Take a break, I had to take a three month break.

 

[Conza]

Conza ---
Its not about 'Kaz' worship, and GT5 isnt perfect, but it does deserve to be defended from delusions of others. Which is what I and others are doing.
What delusions would they be?
---
You are aware that members here are allowed to say both what they like and dislike about GT5 (or any other game for that matter).

Conza ---
Don't like it, don't play it,
---
Have I said I don't like ?

Nope, what I has said is that I don't believe its the best racing title on console nor in comparison to PC titles.


Conza ---
but it is categorically the best racing game,
---Best at what? Fishing?

As a statement that is more than a little vague.


Conza---
so if you're bored of it, it's your problem.
No its not a problem at all, because choice exists. A factor that may well become an issue for PD and Sony when the next release if GT is out, because as things stand right now that will be the first title in the series I will not be buying at launch (if at all), and as I bought my PS2 and PS3 principally for GT titles that may also put my purchase of a PS4 at doubt.

GT5 has done enough 'damage' for me to know that its an extremely unlikely day one purchase of GT6 and or a PS4 for me; on my own does that make a difference, of course not, but I'm certainly not on my own about this.


Scaff

Scaff, I see no point in even discussing this with you, you are just being sarcastic and trolling now, so if you'd like to maintain your opinion fine, I really 🤬, any further communication would be a waste of time, we obviously just don't agree.