Brexit - The UK leaves the EU
- Thread starter Touring Mars
- 6,870 comments
- 301,479 views
You misunderstand. Another vote wouldn't replicate the original, it would vote on the agreed proposals on leaving the EU, or not. If it went the same way, in theory, we'd leave with the government/EU agreed plan.
I should suffer because other people where tricked and lied into voting for something that will and is making the vast majority worse off? ...thanks?
My understanding is that the harshest possible punishment for the crime is a fine of something like 20k... but I'm not sure you could just null and void it, or that doing so would achieve much (without another vote (and then how could you guarantee that second vote's results hadn't been influenced by the illegal campaign run prior?)). We triggered Art.50 long before this was uncovered and they where found guilty.
- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
If that's the case, a new leave or not vote is out of the question.
Just saw that the 27 throbbing EU members shot down May's plan. 4 weeks to come up with something that pleasesgod the EU. And otherwise prepare for a long and hard Brexit.
Just saw that the 27 throbbing EU members shot down May's plan. 4 weeks to come up with something that pleases
- 5,051
- Netherlands
The positive thing I can see is that a lot of people regret voting and finally realise they were misled by populist politics. Its not hard to see the same for the USA. I really hope citizens from other countries learn from the mistakes the UK and USA made.
- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
This is how politics work. You don't need populism for that. Just look at your own Prime Minister and his shenanigans.
Again, Britain shot itself in the foot, and those who wanted to stay are partially to blame, because if I recall correctly they didn't show up en mass because a Brexit was never going to happen anyway.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
That is politics. However these 2 cases are different in the sense they were preying on fear. The same reason the rightwing PVV got so many votes. Which in my view is a one policy party and that is primarily is to spread fear. If the netherlands were a 2 party system the PVV might have won the election, because of misleading facts and policies. And I am certain would be way worse then what is happening now.
- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
This, didn't happen
Not en mass, but if the remain camp got their people to vote, this thread would have been closed the day after the vote, so it seems.
Maybe the Remain campaigners should have broken the law, I'm sure Leave wouldn't have minded and would have been happy with the result...
Edit: but as has already been stated... if the referendum had been carried out in accordance to guide lines and required a ~70% swing to change policy for it to have carried out Leave, we also wouldn't be having this conversation.
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- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
This makes it clear that your view is created by others. Look up their program and you'll see the PVV is more than just Anti Islam.
Maybe the Remain campaigners should have broken the law, I'm sure Leave wouldn't have minded and would have been happy with the result...
Perhaps the remain camp should have realised that (too) many people wanted Brexit to happen, which they clearly didn't and that shows to me that they're disconnected from the common voters out there.
I feel sorry for the Brits who will most likely suffer dearly from this but on the other hand I'm laughing my hypothetical ass off because of this Political Cluster****.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
I did before the election. It was literally 1 page.
Edit: and still is apparantly. Just look at how issue nr.1 is explained and the others are there as "filler". they literally campaigned primarily on one policy if you look back.
https://pvv.nl/visie.html
The only reason they got so many votes was because they were anti-immigration and even want a Nexit.
- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
That one page is enough to show that they're not a one policy party. I count 10 more.
But as with every other political party, things said before the elections are for the votes and worth nothing once the results are in. Case in point, Mark Rutte.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
You guessed wrong. I don't fall for populism.
Perhaps people are getting tired of Islam? Can't blame them but then again, I also get tired of Christianity etc.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
- 31,704
- Buckwheat City
- Dennisch
I prefer the term "Ditch".
But no, it's economical suicide for the Netherlands. I miss the Gulden as much as every other EU sceptical person, but I can't see any way for the Netherlands to survive the economical downfall that will inevitably follows if we vote to follow the Brits.
That’s not politics I want anything to do with and should have no place in a developed nation.
Maybe, if your happy with ‘me’ (in this hypothetical) breaking election law, it’d be better to brake criminal law and just murder anyone who stood against me? I mean, in your world this is a war and they are enemy combatants...
- 29,369
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
It is no surprise that the EU are now calling for a second referendum, in the hope that the British people 'change their views' (as the Czech Prime Minister put it today), in effect saying 'you made the wrong choice, please choose again'.
I'm still at a loss to see why the EU have trashed Theresa May's Chequers plan - it is so tipped in their favour that hard Brexiteers like Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Davis are foaming at the mouth in anger over it, and yet, ironically, it is evidently too much like having EU membership for the EU's liking, so it is toast. As such, the EU is only offering two options - hard Brexit, or total capitulation. However, they will not accept Hard Brexit either, and so the choices for the UK are total capitulation or no deal. I don't think anybody in the UK is properly prepared for either of those options - but ironically we at least know what will happen if we walk away; on the other hand, we currently don't know what the EU has in mind if the UK government were to collapse and request that Article 50 be reversed - as has been said before, one would like to think that it would simply be a case of reverting back to the previous arrangement, but there is in fact no good reason to believe that this will be the case*. So what happens in the event that the EU move the goalposts and demand that the UK makes huge concessions in return for an Article 50 reprieve? It could well be a case of 'be careful what you wish for', and hopeful Remainers may well be in for a nasty surprise.
* A commenter in the FT told me that the EU had already agreed that the UK could remain the EU on our current terms up until a deadline of March 19th 2019, however they couldn't produce a source. The closest I've seen to that was a comment by the French foreign secretary saying that this could happen, but that has been squarely contradicted by EU officials more recently. If there is to be a second referendum, the terms of our staying in need to be made clear, because I fear that the overwhelming majority of Remain voters are still unaware of the possibility of a renegotiation of our terms of membership.
I'm still at a loss to see why the EU have trashed Theresa May's Chequers plan - it is so tipped in their favour that hard Brexiteers like Johnson, Rees-Mogg and Davis are foaming at the mouth in anger over it, and yet, ironically, it is evidently too much like having EU membership for the EU's liking, so it is toast. As such, the EU is only offering two options - hard Brexit, or total capitulation. However, they will not accept Hard Brexit either, and so the choices for the UK are total capitulation or no deal. I don't think anybody in the UK is properly prepared for either of those options - but ironically we at least know what will happen if we walk away; on the other hand, we currently don't know what the EU has in mind if the UK government were to collapse and request that Article 50 be reversed - as has been said before, one would like to think that it would simply be a case of reverting back to the previous arrangement, but there is in fact no good reason to believe that this will be the case*. So what happens in the event that the EU move the goalposts and demand that the UK makes huge concessions in return for an Article 50 reprieve? It could well be a case of 'be careful what you wish for', and hopeful Remainers may well be in for a nasty surprise.
* A commenter in the FT told me that the EU had already agreed that the UK could remain the EU on our current terms up until a deadline of March 19th 2019, however they couldn't produce a source. The closest I've seen to that was a comment by the French foreign secretary saying that this could happen, but that has been squarely contradicted by EU officials more recently. If there is to be a second referendum, the terms of our staying in need to be made clear, because I fear that the overwhelming majority of Remain voters are still unaware of the possibility of a renegotiation of our terms of membership.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
A question though. Are british people too proud to admit a mistake?
- 29,369
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
Probably, but it is not a 'mistake' insomuch as the decision to leave the EU (by triggering Article 50) was done by conscious, deliberate act of Parliament.
I wouldn't argue with the notion that Brexit is misguided, but it is not a mistake. But there is also the question of why Brexit is being considered to be a 'mistake' in the first place - and part of that hinges upon whether or not the EU is deliberately making the process harder than it ought to be, and (as is clearly their aim), they intend for Britain to be significantly damaged by it - and that raises the question of whether it is possible to exit the EU without suffering deliberate punishment for it, irrespective of whether it is a good or a bad idea.
- 5,051
- Netherlands
Not what I meant. Hypotehtically are the british too proud to reverse it when theywant to reverse a decision?
- 29,369
- Glasgow
- GTP_Mars
As I said above, probably.
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Further to all of my EU-based arguments that a second vote is very unlikely, this article in the Guardian tonight sums up the legal difficulties in the UK of arranging a second vote, estimating that it would take atleast 24 weeks to happen, but probably much longer (i.e. a year)
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...o-hold-referendum-on-final-deal-before-brexit
It is the height of irony that the government could probably even fail to pass the necessary legislation to even get a second referendum through Parliament - I'd laugh if it wasn't so depressing!
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