Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[Hun200kmh]

If you read carefully, BoJo also wrote

But if we vote it down again there is now I think an appreciable risk that we will not leave at all.

Like a true politician, a Grima Wormtongue of sorts, you can never catch him or hold him to his word. Because his use of the word is as skilled as it is uncommitting. To this day, I find the red bus NHS lie one of the most fantastic of all time: Just read it and think what's being said, without actually … being said at all:

We send the EU £350 Million a week. Let's fund the NHS instead

Brilliant, isn't it?

 

[eran0004]

Sorry, you lost me... what do you mean by that?

The point being that I was talking about numbers that share the same units i.e. 'number of voters'...

Where did six come from then? The number of voters for remain was around sixteen (times ten to the power of six), wasn’t it?

Looked to me like you were comparing signatures for a petition with votes in a referendum, which are not the same thing. So I compared votes in a referendum with the number of people in the UK who didn’t vote for Brexit, which are also not the same thing. And interestingly enough, the ratio turned out to be about the same, and pretty close to Euler’s number (EU-ler’s number?).

 

[TenEightyOne]

Where did six come from then? The number of voters for remain was around sixteen (times ten to the power of six), wasn’t it?

Looked to me like you were comparing signatures for a petition with votes in a referendum, which are not the same thing. So I compared votes in a referendum with the number of people in the UK who didn’t vote for Brexit, which are also not the same thing. And interestingly enough, the ratio turned out to be about the same, and pretty close to Euler’s number (EU-ler’s number?).

The ratio is 2.876 if you count people who were eligible to vote at the time, it's 3.5 if you expand that to all British nationals... but that all seems odd and arbitrary. What's your point?

 

[Touring Mars]

Where did six come from then? The number of voters for remain was around sixteen (times ten to the power of six), wasn’t it?

Looked to me like you were comparing signatures for a petition with votes in a referendum, which are not the same thing. So I compared votes in a referendum with the number of people in the UK who didn’t vote for Brexit, which are also not the same thing. And interestingly enough, the ratio turned out to be about the same, and pretty close to Euler’s number (EU-ler’s number?).

I was referring specifically to Donald Tusk's remarks from yesterday where he said that the EU should not 'betray' the 6 million people who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 - yet he seems perfectly happy to ignore the 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU.

 

[flanylla]

I was referring specifically to Donald Tusk's remarks from yesterday where he said that the EU should not 'betray' the 6 million people who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 - yet he seems perfectly happy to ignore the 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU.

17.4 million / 6 million isn't even half the amount... Good point brought up there

 

[eran0004]

The ratio is 2.876 if you count people who were eligible to vote at the time, it's 3.5 if you expand that to all British nationals... but that all seems odd and arbitrary. What's your point?

The point is that you cannot compare the number of signatures of a petition with the number of votes in a referendum. It would be just as silly as comparing the number of votes in a referendum with the number of people in a country.

Yes, 17.4 is more than 6, but it’s a meaningless comparison.

I was referring specifically to Donald Tusk's remarks from yesterday where he said that the EU should not 'betray' the 6 million people who signed the petition to revoke Article 50 - yet he seems perfectly happy to ignore the 17.4 million who voted to leave the EU.

The one where he specifically didn’t use the word betray even though that’s the word you’re quoting?

An extension is not an end of brexit, so it’s not ignoring those who voted to leave. The referendum didn’t specify any timeframes or conditions for when and how the UK would leave, so you can’t claim that an extension would go against their wishes.

 

[Famine]

Yes, 17.4 is more than 6, but it’s a meaningless comparison.

16.1 is also more than 6.

It's marginally more relevant, because the former is the number of eligible voters who physically turned out on a single day to vote for remain in the referendum, and the latter is the number of people (who are not necessarily eligible voters) who have made a couple of clicks on a website to withdraw the UK's Article 50 declaration and remain part of the EU since the petition's launch two weeks ago.

Which means that in excess of 10 million voters couldn't be bothered to sign the petition.

 

[Touring Mars]

Yes, 17.4 is more than 6, but it’s a meaningless comparison.

I agree to some extent, which is why I don't really see why Donald Tusk felt the need to comment on the number of people who signed the petition.

-

Theresa May is reportedly considering splitting the exit agreement into two separate parts in order to get the Withdrawal Agreement through Parliament.

Although the Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration are both required to be agreed to eventually, the former is legally binding and the latter is not, hence there is some rationale for allowing them to be considered in Parliament separately. Importantly, the EU have stated that the Withdrawal Agreement must be agreed to in order to proceed, while the Political Declaration is not a pre-requisite.

Labour have consistently voted against May's deal, but this is largely because they dislike the Political Declaration and have a very different idea of what should happen after we've left - but, as has been repeatedly pointed out to them (by Ken Clarke in particular who also favours a softer Brexit), they really don't have any good reason to vote against the Withdrawal Agreement itself.... hence, splitting the vote into two could allow Labour to either vote it through, or abstain (thus allowing it to pass without having to vote for it).

Of course, this would enrage the DUP (but frankly, what doesn't!?) and 'throw NI under a bus', but them's the breaks. It is not without a substantial amount of irony that the DUP could find itself completely at odds with the rest of the UK because it insists on being treated the same as the rest of the UK...

Splitting the vote in two would also possibly constitute the 'significant change' to the motion that is required bt The Speaker to enable another vote to be held.

 

[Liquid]

I vote for Monkey Tennis.

We're all going to be cooking in (personal) prisons pretty soon.

Youth Hostelling with... Kenneth Clarke
An Abbott Amongst The Abbey

 

[eran0004]

16.1 is also more than 6.

It's marginally more relevant, because the former is the number of eligible voters who physically turned out on a single day to vote for remain in the referendum, and the latter is the number of people (who are not necessarily eligible voters) who have made a couple of clicks on a website to withdraw the UK's Article 50 declaration and remain part of the EU since the petition's launch two weeks ago.

Which means that in excess of 10 million voters couldn't be bothered to sign the petition.

And how many signatures do pro-brexit petitions get? Does it mean that people don’t want Brexit anymore or does it mean that people are generally more inclined to vote in referendums than to sign petitions?

 

[Famine]

And how many signatures do pro-brexit petitions get?

I don't believe it's come up yet, because people who supported Brexit don't need to protest the referendum result or our Article 50 withdrawal notice.

Not much point to petition the government for something that's already happening.

 

[baldgye]

I don't believe it's come up yet, because people who supported Brexit don't need to protest the referendum result or our Article 50 withdrawal notice.

Not much point to petition the government for something that's already happening.

There are a couple, but they don’t tend to be very popular or public. A bit like the pro-Brexit country wide march that attracted a few hundred people...

 

[Famine]

There are a couple, but they don’t tend to be very popular or public.

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. There's always someone who doesn't quite get it. The two there are particularly dim.

A bit like the pro-Brexit country wide march that attracted a few hundred people...

Let's face it, even if you voted leave, would you want to go to Sunderland, then walk from there to London, and be that close to Nigel Farage?

 

[baldgye]

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me. There's always someone who doesn't quite get it. The two there are particularly dim.

Let's face it, even if you voted leave, would you want to go to Sunderland, then walk from there to London, and be that close to Nigel Farage?

To be fair, not even Nigel did the whole thing...

 

[eran0004]

I don't believe it's come up yet, because people who supported Brexit don't need to protest the referendum result or our Article 50 withdrawal notice.

Not much point to petition the government for something that's already happening.

They do need to protest a record-breaking petition though.

 

[Touring Mars]

Meaningful vote 3 (MV3) will be held tomorrow...

The Withdrawal Agreement needs to be accepted by Parliament before 11pm tomorrow if the EU's offer of an extension beyond April 11th is to be retained.

In other words, this is the last chance for the deal to be saved. If it is not, then there will be 12 days left to come up with a totally new plan, otherwise we leave on 11th April without a deal.

 

[Famine]

They do need to protest a record-breaking petition though.

Why would anyone need to petition a petition - particularly a petition that has already failed its objective?

 

[MatskiMonk]

#BojoforPM

He's not the PM we need, but he's the PM we deserve.

 

[Daz555]

I don't believe it's come up yet, because people who supported Brexit don't need to protest the referendum result or our Article 50 withdrawal notice.

Not much point to petition the government for something that's already happening.

They should be protesting because there is a real danger that their dream may be lost.

 

[Famine]

They should be protesting because there is a real danger that their dream may be lost.

If the government does withdraw Article 50, I imagine that there will be quite the petition, but ultimately all paths currently seem to lead to leave.

 

[baldgye]

They should be protesting because there is a real danger that their dream may be lost.

Dream being the operative word

 

[baldgye]

Sorry!

 

[baldgye]

Sorry

 

[Famine]

Dream being the operative word

Dream being the operative word

Dream being the operative word

 

[MatskiMonk]

 

[Daz555]

If the government does withdraw Article 50, I imagine that there will be quite the petition, but ultimately all paths currently seem to lead to leave.

May's deal would appear now to be the only option for the leavers to pin their hopes on. I don't think for a moment no-deal will happen. If May's deal is voted down again who knows what will go on.

Perhaps they could get support for May's deal WITH an amendment to put it to the people? We will see.

 

[baldgye]

May's deal would appear now to be the only option for the leavers to pin their hopes on. I don't think for a moment no-deal will happen. If May's deal is voted down again who knows what will go on.

Perhaps they could get support for May's deal WITH an amendment to put it to the people? We will see.

The problem with May's Deal is that it doesn't really disconnect us from the EU. The benefit it has it it'll see in a new PM.

It's why the ERG is now split (at least publicly) between no-deal and May's deal

 

[Famine]

Oh man, that's worthy of an infraction.

 

[Touring Mars]

Perhaps they could get support for May's deal WITH an amendment to put it to the people? We will see.

This would be the most pointless thing ever, though Parliament seem so inept that they are likely to go for this option.

Just like in Parliament, there is likely no majority among the UK public for any one option that hasn't already been put to a public vote.

But, the UK could very easily find itself in the absurd position that the people have demanded that we leave the EU and then be allowed to veto any attempt to actually leave.

The only way a public vote on May's deal would generate anything other than a reversal of Brexit would be a simple choice between May's deal or No deal.

 

[baldgye]

The only way a public vote on May's deal would generate anything other than a reversal of Brexit would be a simple choice between May's deal or No deal.

Which speak volumes about this whole insane affair.