Brexit - The UK leaves the EU
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Tired Tyres
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a little bit of sick just came up...
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Channel 4 made the slightly daft decision of broadcasting live from outside Westminster tonight, where veteran presenter Jon Snow interviewed Jacob Rees-Mogg (the Machiavellian Tory Brexiteer) and Nicky Morgan (a Remain-supporting Tory). Predictably, the interview with Rees-Mogg started with a couple of loud anti-Brexit hecklers shouting in the background - but Jon Snow handled it.... 
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Oh, and Nigel Farage is threatening to make a comeback now too...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...yal-isnt-reversed-have-no-choice-return-ukip/
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Oh, and Nigel Farage is threatening to make a comeback now too...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politic...yal-isnt-reversed-have-no-choice-return-ukip/
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So Hunt gets a promotion. How on earth do this lot get away with it. If anybody in business or industry had performed like he had over the past number of years they would be out of a job with little chance of finding anything else. Never been more disillusioned with politics at any time in my life.
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- Johnnypenso
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The bitter irony of the 'Brexodus' of yesterday is that it could well strengthen Theresa May's hand to pursue precisely the form of Brexit that the EU has ruled out all along. All eyes are now on Brussels to see how they respond to the UK Government's white paper which will be published on Thursday - setting out the UK's official Brexit proposal for the first time. Brussels need to be careful in how they respond - but I imagine they will 'welcome' the proposal, and then politely explain why it ain't going to happen. This may well be the moment that May's opponents choose to act...
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Meanwhile, one of the UK's most popular soap operas, EastEnders, is about as up to date as you can get - talking about David Davis's departure on the same day it happened. They even stole my joke that Theresa May should appoint Gareth Southgate...
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Meanwhile, one of the UK's most popular soap operas, EastEnders, is about as up to date as you can get - talking about David Davis's departure on the same day it happened. They even stole my joke that Theresa May should appoint Gareth Southgate...
Worryingly some political pundits have named Hunt as one of her possible usurpers...
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This illustrates an integral part of the problem. The question posed to voters was simply Leave or Remain. The promises made by "Leave", presumably the basis on which a good portion of Leaver voters were acting, were not part of the vote. They may have been part of the driver (and we've seen several important claims retracted or debunked) but they were not part of the vote.
The mandate is for the government to leave the EU, that was all that the vote delivered. No terms, no methods, nothing else.
Sorry double post! Please delete
Well GTP displayed that I had double posted, and now the comment box is full of half my post, I can’t select it or copy it...
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-07-10/...cond-brexit-referendum-resoundingly-defeated/
But there, plus some flavour about Labour abstaining from the vote
Well GTP displayed that I had double posted, and now the comment box is full of half my post, I can’t select it or copy it...
http://www.itv.com/news/2018-07-10/...cond-brexit-referendum-resoundingly-defeated/
But there, plus some flavour about Labour abstaining from the vote
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Brexit is becoming poisonous.
Mrs. May is, according to many in her own Party, guilty of treason.
It is irrelevant if her critics can even understand what really is at stake, and if they understand what crashing out of the Single Market and into WTO will mean for the international trade of UK's products and services.
But Mrs. May should quit, and give way to the true Brexiteers, the patriotic Tories that want to end any and all negotiations with the EU bureaucrats, to rebuild an independent nation, free to create its own product standards, subject only to its own national courts and rules, still … open to trade with all other nations in the world.
They might fail, of course. With dire consequences. But at least the people would know what are the consequences of their patriotic policy, and judge them for it.
As it stands, the true Brexiteers are vociferous but they're neither responsible nor accountable for what's to come. And that is a pity, because what's to come isn't nice and they won't share any responsability for it.
I don't pity Mrs. May though … she should have resigned a long time ago, and her Party should have placed a "true Brexiteer" in her position.
Mrs. May is, according to many in her own Party, guilty of treason.
It is irrelevant if her critics can even understand what really is at stake, and if they understand what crashing out of the Single Market and into WTO will mean for the international trade of UK's products and services.
But Mrs. May should quit, and give way to the true Brexiteers, the patriotic Tories that want to end any and all negotiations with the EU bureaucrats, to rebuild an independent nation, free to create its own product standards, subject only to its own national courts and rules, still … open to trade with all other nations in the world.
They might fail, of course. With dire consequences. But at least the people would know what are the consequences of their patriotic policy, and judge them for it.
As it stands, the true Brexiteers are vociferous but they're neither responsible nor accountable for what's to come. And that is a pity, because what's to come isn't nice and they won't share any responsability for it.
I don't pity Mrs. May though … she should have resigned a long time ago, and her Party should have placed a "true Brexiteer" in her position.
So, you want the government the economically and politically cripple the country-which would have very serious and negative long term effects-to prove a point?
I’m a bit confused by the wording you use. Are you a supporter of the idea that May is ‘guilty of treason’ and that we need a Pro-Brexit at all costs leader?
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I'm sorry but what I am trying to say isn't linear and my limited knowledge of English makes me lack the subtlety I need. I'll try to sum it up in little sentences:
So, my opinion is:
1. Hard Brexit may mean the UK is 100% independent, and 0% interdependent, but is, by definition, an economic disaster for the UK
2. Soft Brexit (regulatory alignment so you can still have "frictionless trade") makes the UK a rule taker (DD), a vassal state (JRM) or even a colony (BJ)
3. Both hard Brexit and Soft Brexit are worse than what the UK has now (full EU membership with some interesting prerrogatives, like keeping their own currency, out of Schengen and entitled to the famous rebate)
4. Realists in Government prefer soft Brexit thinking that a transitional period would make it easy on the eyes of hardline brexiteers.
5. But even their "soft Brexit" is hardly acceptable by the EU, because it means breaking the 4 freedoms and having some while not the others.
6. So, even the "realists" are probably better called "optimists".
7. In any case, hardline Brexiteers aren't willing to agree with such "realism".
8. Up to now, Mrs. May managed to keep some of those loonies in Government (still today some of them are there, like Gove and Fox)
9. But DD and BJ leaving changes this
10. So, now you have this impossible situation where what the UK Goverment wants is very difficult to accept (by the EU) but that same Government is facing a growing roar at home (originating in a political class that appears to be living in an alternate reality) because it is conceding too much …
11. How this will end is still very much uncertain. But I fear that the backlash for a total UK crash will fall on the shoulders of the ones that did their best to avoid it, and that these will be called traitors, while the people responsible for what has happened will appear as the innocents. You only need to read the Daily Telegraph (and I don't mean the comments, I mean the articles) to understand this is almost inevitable now.
12. So, I think it is a pity that the guys doing their best to ruin the UK economy won't be accountable for what will happen.
So, my opinion is:
1. Hard Brexit may mean the UK is 100% independent, and 0% interdependent, but is, by definition, an economic disaster for the UK
2. Soft Brexit (regulatory alignment so you can still have "frictionless trade") makes the UK a rule taker (DD), a vassal state (JRM) or even a colony (BJ)
3. Both hard Brexit and Soft Brexit are worse than what the UK has now (full EU membership with some interesting prerrogatives, like keeping their own currency, out of Schengen and entitled to the famous rebate)
4. Realists in Government prefer soft Brexit thinking that a transitional period would make it easy on the eyes of hardline brexiteers.
5. But even their "soft Brexit" is hardly acceptable by the EU, because it means breaking the 4 freedoms and having some while not the others.
6. So, even the "realists" are probably better called "optimists".
7. In any case, hardline Brexiteers aren't willing to agree with such "realism".
8. Up to now, Mrs. May managed to keep some of those loonies in Government (still today some of them are there, like Gove and Fox)
9. But DD and BJ leaving changes this
10. So, now you have this impossible situation where what the UK Goverment wants is very difficult to accept (by the EU) but that same Government is facing a growing roar at home (originating in a political class that appears to be living in an alternate reality) because it is conceding too much …
11. How this will end is still very much uncertain. But I fear that the backlash for a total UK crash will fall on the shoulders of the ones that did their best to avoid it, and that these will be called traitors, while the people responsible for what has happened will appear as the innocents. You only need to read the Daily Telegraph (and I don't mean the comments, I mean the articles) to understand this is almost inevitable now.
12. So, I think it is a pity that the guys doing their best to ruin the UK economy won't be accountable for what will happen.
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UKMikey
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I've long been of the belief that when things start to go Tango Uniform the hardliners will start to blame the EC, us Remoaners, HM Government... anyone but themselves.
I'm sure they'd have no problem stepping in and taking the credit should our economic situation miraculously improve however.
I'm sure they'd have no problem stepping in and taking the credit should our economic situation miraculously improve however.
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@baldgye this article by an Irish journalist says it better than I could ever …
"Brexit has so far been conducted through a glass darkly. It has been seen through glorious fantasies of imperial revival and layers of self-pity about imaginary oppression. What May has been attempting, very late in the day, is to force her more deluded colleagues to get their heads out of the jar and look directly at Brexit.
She has shown them the best-case scenario, the most desirable possible outcome. And though in colour it may look like Nutella, it is actually a different kind of sticky brown stuff. “Human kind,” said TS Eliot, “cannot bear very much reality,” and the same is surely true of Davis, Johnson and their fellow diehards. May has finally managed to disenchant the Brexit project, to strip away its heroic veneer. And instead of a date with destiny, it looks awfully like a loveless marriage, entered into with a heavy heart because the only alternative is unbearable loneliness.
The Brexit the British are now officially seeking is indeed miserable. Instead of the Star Trek vision of boldly going where no imperial-nostalgic society had gone before, it would not have enough thrust to get the UK out of the gravitational pull of the European Union. And instead of freeing British businesses from Brussels red tape, it proposes to wrap them up like mummies in layers of staggeringly complex bureaucracy, with two completely different tariff regimes operating side by side. And this, remember, is what the UK is asking for, not what it will get.
In real negotiations, as Davis knows from experience, things can only get worse: the role of the hated European Court of Justice will loom much larger and the opt-outs for future UK parliaments will disappear. If a deal is to be done at all, the last vestiges of fantasy Brexit will have to be stripped away and what will be left is a state that has negotiated its way from full partnership to the status of a rule-taking satellite of the EU.
When you take away all the heroic elements of Brexit, all the epic thrills of throwing off the oppressor and beginning a new history, what you are left with is just this – a country that has gone to enormous trouble to humiliate itself. Brexit has reached the point where the best possible outcome is the worst of both worlds, a state that is neither in nor out, neither on its own nor part of something larger.
This is what all the patriotic bombast has brought Britain to: a humble request that the EU play nice and grant it a subordinate status. Imagine that at some point in the past, the EU had actually offered this to the British. How dare they!
Can there be the slightest doubt that the British would have been up in arms, demanding nothing less than full EU membership? Has any country ever gone into international treaty negotiations hoping to emerge with a status greatly inferior to the one it already enjoys? What do we want? National humiliation. When do we want it? Now.
Davis and Johnson know this is the reality they helped to create. They hadn’t the stomach either to face it or to publish a credible alternative. That is because the only alternatives to a mortifying Brexit are stark. One is to be honest and admit that the whole project has already failed and must be stopped before it is too late. The other is to stick your head back in the Nutella jar. If May goes, there may be no one left to pull the poor possums out."
Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...to-huge-trouble-to-humiliate-itself-1.3558995
"Brexit has so far been conducted through a glass darkly. It has been seen through glorious fantasies of imperial revival and layers of self-pity about imaginary oppression. What May has been attempting, very late in the day, is to force her more deluded colleagues to get their heads out of the jar and look directly at Brexit.
She has shown them the best-case scenario, the most desirable possible outcome. And though in colour it may look like Nutella, it is actually a different kind of sticky brown stuff. “Human kind,” said TS Eliot, “cannot bear very much reality,” and the same is surely true of Davis, Johnson and their fellow diehards. May has finally managed to disenchant the Brexit project, to strip away its heroic veneer. And instead of a date with destiny, it looks awfully like a loveless marriage, entered into with a heavy heart because the only alternative is unbearable loneliness.
The Brexit the British are now officially seeking is indeed miserable. Instead of the Star Trek vision of boldly going where no imperial-nostalgic society had gone before, it would not have enough thrust to get the UK out of the gravitational pull of the European Union. And instead of freeing British businesses from Brussels red tape, it proposes to wrap them up like mummies in layers of staggeringly complex bureaucracy, with two completely different tariff regimes operating side by side. And this, remember, is what the UK is asking for, not what it will get.
In real negotiations, as Davis knows from experience, things can only get worse: the role of the hated European Court of Justice will loom much larger and the opt-outs for future UK parliaments will disappear. If a deal is to be done at all, the last vestiges of fantasy Brexit will have to be stripped away and what will be left is a state that has negotiated its way from full partnership to the status of a rule-taking satellite of the EU.
When you take away all the heroic elements of Brexit, all the epic thrills of throwing off the oppressor and beginning a new history, what you are left with is just this – a country that has gone to enormous trouble to humiliate itself. Brexit has reached the point where the best possible outcome is the worst of both worlds, a state that is neither in nor out, neither on its own nor part of something larger.
This is what all the patriotic bombast has brought Britain to: a humble request that the EU play nice and grant it a subordinate status. Imagine that at some point in the past, the EU had actually offered this to the British. How dare they!
Can there be the slightest doubt that the British would have been up in arms, demanding nothing less than full EU membership? Has any country ever gone into international treaty negotiations hoping to emerge with a status greatly inferior to the one it already enjoys? What do we want? National humiliation. When do we want it? Now.
Davis and Johnson know this is the reality they helped to create. They hadn’t the stomach either to face it or to publish a credible alternative. That is because the only alternatives to a mortifying Brexit are stark. One is to be honest and admit that the whole project has already failed and must be stopped before it is too late. The other is to stick your head back in the Nutella jar. If May goes, there may be no one left to pull the poor possums out."
Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/...to-huge-trouble-to-humiliate-itself-1.3558995
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And now we can add angry Vegans to the list!
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...awal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/voice...awal-bill-anti-science-tory-mps-a8065161.html
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It is really, I'm just trying to provoke debate, since Vegans tend to get a bum rap given they're just trying to uphold ethical standards.
There's a specific irony here for me. My mum, who is a meat eating animal lover (will literally take a sparrow to the vets if one of the cats injures it), once complained about an article she saw on Facebook about the cruelty of Halal meat, and how it was 'taking over' the high street, and how voting FOR Brexit would cut down on the Islam practicing migrant population wanting it.... she is a leave voter.
... I mean, if that doesn't sum up the entire situation for me, I don't know what does. Double standards and hypocrisy exploited by propaganda to inspire a vote for a campaign based on lies that had the opposite effect because of desperate and incompetent political decisions made for all the wrong reasons.
Dotini
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Doesn't times like these make you wish for a wise, benevolent despot - a Solomonic King - to make important decisions rather than a messy, uneducated democracy? Or would you still prefer a democracy, no matter how incompetent?
