Brexit - The UK leaves the EU

[TRGTspecialist]

Nicola Murray is almost exactly May

Nah - May can walk in a straight line perfectly well. Give her some credit

 

[baldgye]

Not buying, selling and installing electrical equipment then. I can assure you I hear it a lot.

Ok?
So why didn't you reference that, rather than asking the fairly pointless question of if I'd lived a sheltered life?

Also, the two industries don't seem all that related. Car assembly and production requires cheap and easy importing and exporting, especially to the single market. If costs of importing and exporting good (as previously mentioned) increased, it makes UK plants far more expensive and less viable.

Nah - May can walk in a straight line perfectly well. Give her some credit

haha, I'm not so sure!

 

[Scaff]

They may not be concerned in the UK but I can absolutely assure you that in developing markets and places like the Far East where something is made is one of, if not the most important factor when making a purchase. It might be to do with there being a lot more unevenness in quality and standards when it comes to product choices in those countries and they may have more confidence in foreign made goods but nevertheless it matters. Go anywhere in the Far East and where something is made will feature prominently on the packaging and in the marketing and it will sway people.

We are talking cars specifically now, and for the vast majority of cars sold in the market they don't care. With China OEMs are specifically looking at in country production, which they woudl not be if it were an issue.

But there are people that treat luxury cars as substanceless items (usually the wealthy), buying a car to them is buying a handbag and they may not care about the vastly significant efforts that go into it over said handbag. When Rolls Royce stick the "Hand Built In Goodwood, England" plate on the door sill just that alone is 'selling it' to someone. JLR might not be that level but its still a luxury marque and their cars are bought regularly for superficial reasons, like it's Britishness, which includes being British made.

And for the few thousand a year made of those that's great. For the hundreds of thousands of the rest of the products made its an utter irrelevance.

Nor does the 'Britishness' of the brand mean it can't be manufactured outside of the UK, Mini is about as British a brand you can get and plenty of those are made outside the UK. Ditto Volvo's and Sweden. Hell Vauxhall is being pushed as a 'British' brand again, despite being owned by the French and has been a British brand, despite not being Bristish for over 50 years and the main product sold (the Corsa) not being made in the UK.

With the exception of a tiny amount of production (i.e. Rolls, McLaren), the motor industry will pull production from the UK if its economically rational to do so, and it will not impact on the brands in question in any significant manner at all.

How many times have I heard people say they don't want something because its, and I quote, "Junk made in China".

Since the late '80s? Very little personally (and before that the same was said about Japan).

Its doesn't seem to harm the sales of Apple products much, nor do the brand a great deal of harm either.


Edited to add: I just noticed you added in about electrical equipment. Which bring sto mind a recent piece I read about Korg looking to move production from the US, as tariffs on China would effect the cost base. As the synths they make in the US use a heavy amount of Chinese manufactured electrical components.

 

[Liquid]

I must say that it's boom time for Slovakia; it's the world's most productive car-producing country per capita (Jaguar Land Rover, Kia, Peugeot, (Citroen), Volkswagen, (Audi, Porsche, Bentley)) and accounts for about 15% of the country's GDP, 22% of all exports and 40% of all manufacturing.

The transferred staff who work for JLR are extremely friendly, having got to know some of them recently, and they also repeat what every one else is saying about UK car production, that it is industry professionals being wilfully ignored by the government. It's no surprise that a company like Jaguar Land Rover has got its foot here.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Ok?
So why didn't you reference that, rather than asking the fairly pointless question of if I'd lived a sheltered life?

You claimed not to have heard something. I asked a perfectly legitimate question. Don't like it? Your problem.

 

[baldgye]

You claimed not to have heard something. I asked a perfectly legitimate question. Don't like it? Your problem.

I updated my post and expanded upon it a little. I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so confrontational, but I guess that's; my problem...

 

[Tired Tyres]

I updated my post and expanded upon it a little. I'm not sure why you feel the need to be so confrontational, but I guess that's; my problem...

I'm not being confrontational. I made a reply based on a post. If it comes across as anything else, I can assure you, that was not the intention.

 

[Dotini]

Major household appliances such as washers and refrigerators, now mostly made in China, often last only a couple of years before experiencing problems. Appliances such as these formerly made in the US were known to last decades.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Major household appliances such as washers and refrigerators, now mostly made in China, often last only a couple of years before experiencing problems. Appliances such as these formerly made in the US were known to last decades.

Yup. I had an issue with my fridge a few years ago and the repair guy said in plain speak, "This stuff is junk and it's been junk ever since they moved production overseas and the focus has been on looking pretty and building stuff to last 10 years and not much more." I always trust the opinions of guys who work inside of an industry in the nitty gritty of things. They see things the rest of us will never see and from a perspective you'll never get in the mainstream media. My clothers dryer has broken down twice in the last few years and I repaired it myself. Literally one of the simplest designs of all appliances but when you take it apart it looks like an oversized toaster in the back with the thinnest, skinniest possible wire coil for heating and the flimsiest and cheapest relays, switches, parts and design.

 

[Scaff]

Major household appliances such as washers and refrigerators, now mostly made in China, often last only a couple of years before experiencing problems. Appliances such as these formerly made in the US were known to last decades.

Which has nothing to do with the location of build and everything to do with built in obsolescence, consumer expectations of expected product life-cycles and the repair vs replacement cost balance.

I've a Japanese made guitar from 1980, a period of time during which Japanese made guitars suffered the exact same accusations as are being made about Chinese goods. Not only does the accusation not hold true, but these pieces are now highly collectible, but seen as offering a degree of quality that wasn't appreciated correctly at the time.

The location of build has zero to do with the quality of build, that is down entirely to the productioon method used, the

 

[Robin]

I've literally never, ever heard anyone say that in my entire life

Since the late '80s? Very little personally (and before that the same was said about Japan).

Read through reviews on Amazon, discussions about any product and talk to a few people about any recent purchases you are bound to see/hear someone talk negatively and claim it's because it was made in China. 80's? people say this everyday right up till today! I hear even hear it muttered by people in shops. When all the Hoverboards were catching fire people were blaming the fact that it was because they were Chinese made. Recently when toys were found to be laced with lead paint they blamed it on the fact that they were Chinese made. Whenever anything isn't 'made like it used to be' people bring the country it came from as the reason, whether it's justified or not. There are going to be people in China that won't buy a Range Rover if it's made in Eastern Europe, I'm sure there are even Brits that won't either.

Its doesn't seem to harm the sales of Apple products much, nor do the brand a great deal of harm either.

Back in 2010 when Foxconn workers were committing suicide it did harm Apple very much and it became such an issue that Tim Cook has to visit the factories and get assurances that working conditions would improve because it was fast turning into a PR disaster harming sales and it's share price. Why should it matter if no one cares about where its made or how the workforce is treated in those countries? Since back then Apple has started making some of it's desktops in the US and wants to move even more production back home because it's great for marketing and can help remove this feeling of being associated with sweatshop labor.

Edited to add: I just noticed you added in about electrical equipment. Which bring sto mind a recent piece I read about Korg looking to move production from the US, as tariffs on China would effect the cost base. As the synths they make in the US use a heavy amount of Chinese manufactured electrical components.

Well thats because its hard to make goods containing components totally sourced from the US but as more production moves back home the home grown supply chain in turn will develop. Frankly instead of bailing on the US Korg should work (with the help of the government) to incentivise the creation of companies which can provide these components within the US. In the UK for example the supply chain is quite well developed with many components being sourced locally in the Midlands in the case of JLR. If JLR wants to throw that away and face the prospect of having to pay tariffs to import those components to assembly lines in Europe thats their choice.

Major household appliances such as washers and refrigerators, now mostly made in China, often last only a couple of years before experiencing problems. Appliances such as these formerly made in the US were known to last decades.

A friend of mine has an American made air conditioner that has worked perfectly for 40 years!

 

[baldgye]

Major household appliances such as washers and refrigerators, now mostly made in China, often last only a couple of years before experiencing problems. Appliances such as these formerly made in the US were known to last decades.

Yup. I had an issue with my fridge a few years ago and the repair guy said in plain speak, "This stuff is junk and it's been junk ever since they moved production overseas and the focus has been on looking pretty and building stuff to last 10 years and not much more." I always trust the opinions of guys who work inside of an industry in the nitty gritty of things. They see things the rest of us will never see and from a perspective you'll never get in the mainstream media. My clothers dryer has broken down twice in the last few years and I repaired it myself. Literally one of the simplest designs of all appliances but when you take it apart it looks like an oversized toaster in the back with the thinnest, skinniest possible wire coil for heating and the flimsiest and cheapest relays, switches, parts and design.

I'm confused as to what these posts even relate to regarding the conversation about JLR moving production from the UK to the EU to cut down on costs.

Read through reviews on Amazon, discussions about any product and talk to a few people about any recent purchases you are bound to see/hear someone talk negatively and claim it's because it was made in China. 80's? people say this everyday right up till today! I hear even hear it muttered by people in shops. When all the Hoverboards were catching fire people were blaming the fact that it was because they were Chinese made. Recently when toys were found to be laced with lead paint they blamed it on the fact that they were Chinese made. Whenever anything isn't 'made like it used to be' people bring the country it came from as the reason, whether it's justified or not. There is going to be people in China that won't buy a Range Rover if it's made in Eastern Europe, I'm sure there are even Brits that won't either.

But this is already happening and will continue to happen

 

[Scaff]

Read through reviews on Amazon, discussions about any product and talk to a few people about any recent purchases you are bound to see/hear someone talk negatively and claim it's because it was made in China. 80's? people say this everyday right up till today! I hear even hear it muttered by people in shops. When all the Hoverboards were catching fire people were blaming the fact that it was because they were Chinese made. Recently when toys were found to be laced with lead paint they blamed it on the fact that they were Chinese made.

None of which stops people actually buying them

Whenever anything isn't 'made like it used to be' people bring the country it came from as the reason, whether it's justified or not. There is going to be people in China that won't buy a Range Rover if it's made in Eastern Europe, I'm sure there are even Brits that won't either.

Its a market I work in, its doesn't stop people buying them (in any business significant manner). The vast, vast, vast majority of people would have no idea of even how to find out the location a vehicle was made.

The vast majority of vehicles sold in China (and that the key bit, a few thousand RR are such a tiny percentage of sales that they are an irrelevance) are to people who don't case where they are made. Its for that reason the single largest western brand sold in the market (which for the brand is the largest global market they have) is ramping up production in China and investing heavily in doing so.

https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-0...h-three-new-factories-in-china-101258918.html

Back in 2010 when Foxconn workers were committing suicide it did harm Apple very much and it became such an issue that Tim Cook has to visit the factories and get assurances that working conditions would improve because it was fast turning into a PR disaster harming sales and it's share price. Why should it matter if no one cares about where its made or how the workforce is treated in those countries? Since back then Apple has started making some of it's desktops in the US and wants to move even more production back home because it's great for marketing and can help remove this feeling of being associated with sweatshop labor.

The total impact on iPhone sales of this was?

Well thats because its hard to make goods containing components totally sourced from the US but as more production moves back home the home grown supply chain in turn will develop. Frankly instead of bailing on the US Korg should work (with the help of the government) to incentivise the creation of companies which can provide these components within the US.

And be faced with two options, charge even more for the product or make even less profit on the product.

In the UK for example the supply chain is quite well developed with many components being sourced locally in the Midlands in the case of JLR.

The majority of those components still come from outside the UK, across the industry is around 65% come from outside the UK.

 

[Robin]

None of which stops people actually buying them

It certainly stops them from buying from that brand again. Plus many people return stuff they aren't happy with.

The total impact on iPhone sales of this was?

iPhone sales fell by 2 million and stagnated for quite some years and the share price fell by $200 from $700 to $500.

And be faced with two options, charge even more for the product or make even less profit on the product.

People will pay more if the quality is better.

I'm confused as to what these posts even relate to regarding the conversation about JLR moving production from the UK to the EU to cut down on costs.

It's because you said that you have never heard anyone says these things in your entire life.

 

[Scaff]

It certainly stops them from buying from that brand again. Plus many people return stuff they aren't happy with.

And the chances that that the alternate brand isn't made in China are?

Sorry but its an absurd claim to make that Chinese manufacture automatically means poor quality, one that simply hasn't been supported. Goods made in China can be good or bad, with the main factors behind that having far more to do with the design, spec of components, quality control standards. All of which are down to the company contracting the work and not the point of assembly.

As I've said before the exact same argument was used for Japanese manufactured goods in the past.

iPhone sales fell by 2 million and stagnated for quite some years and the share price fell by $200 from $700 to $500.

Correlation doesn't equal causality.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/263401/global-apple-iphone-sales-since-3rd-quarter-2007/

Nor does it even demonstrate an issue with Chinese manufacture, but with Apple's standards and control

People will pay more if the quality is better.

Korg's quality standards are already stupidly high, and the product costs the same (because oddly enough China being a manufacturer of the components doesn't mean its automatically crap). As such moving it all to the US would not make a bit of difference to the overall quality, but would to the cost.

Here's a good example of how much of this quality argument is simply not true. A few years ago a boutique guitar pedal manufacturer popped up called 'Freakish Blues' with a handbuilt in the US pedal called the Alpha Drive. It sold for circa $200 a pop and was lauded as a new great among interpretations of the classic OCD style drive pedals. They couldn't shift enough of them, £165 in the UK by the way, and boy did it get lauded.



Then someone did a teardown on one, and it turns out this US build pedal was actually a repainted Joyo Ultimate Drive, a Chinese clone of an existing pedal that retailed at around $35!

http://revolutiondeux.blogspot.com/2012/02/joyo-ultimate-drive-freakish-blues.html

Its the exact same circuit board and wiring, the exact same components, its the exact same pedal bar a paint-job and the ease at which a sucker is parted from his/her money.

I have this pedal (the Joyo) and have been using it pretty much daily for over six years.

 

[baldgye]

It's because you said that you have never heard anyone says these things in your entire life.

Right, but neither of their anecdotes are relevant as they live in totally different cultures.


Also, hilariously the Taxi company May had cards for so resigned cabinet members could leave Chequers, turns out to have gone out of business, in 2013!



You can’t make incompetence like this up

 

[Robin]

Sorry but its an absurd claim to make that Chinese manufacture automatically means poor quality, one that simply hasn't been supported. Goods made in China can be good or bad, with the main factors behind that having far more to do with the design, spec of components, quality control standards. All of which are down to the company contracting the work and not the point of assembly.

Korg's quality standards are already stupidly high, and the product costs the same (because oddly enough China being a manufacturer of the components doesn't mean its automatically crap). As such moving it all to the US would not make a bit of difference to the overall quality, but would to the cost.

Your seeming to imply I personally believe this. I have specifically stated that this is a view that can rightly or wrongly be warranted in every post I brought it up. I don't at all support the notion that it automatically means bad quality across the board but it is equally absurd to not acknowledge that stuff from those countries does carry a reputation and it is one that will sway (as I said, justified in certain cases and not in others) consumers.

Also on the point of control, often suppliers will flaunt the standards set by people contracting the work which is why we have recalls. Recently 3 of my power adapter cables were recalled because the manufacturer, unbeknown to the contractor, had used substandard wiring that doesn't meet UK standards. When you make stuff abroad is harder to keep an eye on everything to ensure it's done as it should regardless of the processes in place. Factories can flat out lie about specifications, accreditations and one factory I seem to recall reading about had totally forged ISO certification and was suppling to major brands with totally standardless products.

It's better to have suppliers just you can just go down the road to. Even if it's more expensive there are many merits of a locally sourced supply chain such as standards people actually adhere to, less lead time, easier changing of production specifications, no sudden tariff or logistical headaches etc. Try keeping an eye on a factory aboard where anything can happen including the building collapsing because it wasn't fit for purpose.

Here's a good example of how much of this quality argument is simply not true. A few years ago a boutique guitar pedal manufacturer popped up called 'Freakish Blues' with a handbuilt in the US pedal called the Alpha Drive. It sold for circa $200 a pop and was lauded as a new great among interpretations of the classic OCD style drive pedals. They couldn't shift enough of them, £165 in the UK by the way, and boy did it get lauded.

Then someone did a teardown on one, and it turns out this US build pedal was actually a repainted Joyo Ultimate Drive, a Chinese clone of an existing pedal that retailed at around $35!

In this example you have highlighted that people will pay more for PERCEIVED quality, would people have gone nuts over it if they had known the truth? People will pay more if the quality is better and they may also pay more just for it saying 'Made in the USA' which is what I have said all along. You have just proven that it matters. Some may feel ripped off and some will think that because it was American made and they wanted to support American employment that it was worth the extra.

Right, but neither of their anecdotes are relevant as they live in totally different cultures.

Products are sold in 'totally different cultures' which is the whole point of this discussion. Suddenly a foreign consumers point of view doesn't matter at all? It's a good thing JLR sell no cars abroad...

 

[baldgye]

Products are sold in 'totally different cultures' which is the whole point of this discussion. Suddenly a foreign consumers point of view doesn't matter at all? It's a good thing JLR sell no cars abroad...

I was referring to the phrase used, and where it was heard... as those anecdotes, as you pointed out, where to do with the phrase I'd never heard before....

But, regardless, you are wrong with the stance you are taking. As I already linked in a reply to one of your posts, this move, has already begun, and unless you think you know better than a directors of JLR, where they are made, isn't important.

 

[Scaff]

Your seeming to imply I personally believe this. I have specifically stated that this is a view that can rightly or wrongly be warranted in every post I brought it up. I don't at all support the notion that it automatically means bad quality across the board but it is equally absurd to not acknowledge that stuff from those countries does carry a reputation and it is one that will sway (as I said, justified in certain cases and not in others) consumers.

Also on the point of control, often suppliers will flaunt the standards set by people contracting the work which is why we have recalls. Recently 3 of my power adapter cables were recalled because the manufacturer, unbeknown to the contractor, had used substandard wiring that doesn't meet UK standards. When you make stuff abroad is harder to keep an eye on everything to ensure it's done as it should regardless of the processes in place. Factories can flat out lie about specifications, accreditations and one factory I seem to recall reading about had totally forged ISO certification and was suppling to major brands with totally standardless products.

It's better to have suppliers just you can just go down the road to. Even if it's more expensive there are many merits of a locally sourced supply chain such as standards people actually adhere to, less lead time, easier changing of production specifications, no sudden tariff or logistical headaches etc. Try keeping an eye on a factory aboard where anything can happen including the building collapsing because it wasn't fit for purpose.

In a global market, at the scale the motor industry operates at, I would disagree, they have people in factory.

In this example you have highlighted that people will pay more for PERCEIVED quality, would people have gone nuts over it if they had known the truth? People will pay more if the quality is better and they may also pay more just for it saying 'Made in the USA' which is what I have said all along. You have just proven that it matters. Some may feel ripped off and some will think that because it was American made and they wanted to support American employment that it was worth the extra.

Which I would accept if it were it not for a few factors, the backlash for the pedal being Chinese in origin was roughly zero, and the Joyo pedal and it's branded versions have a great reputation for quality and sell I'm stupidly high quantities. A single rebranded version is the 12th most popular drive pedal in Europe's largest music retailer, the pedals close cousin is the 4th most popular. The single best selling pedal they sell, retailing at a grand for a multi-fx unit is made in, yep you guessed it, China.

Products are sold in 'totally different cultures' which is the whole point of this discussion. Suddenly a foreign consumers point of view doesn't matter at all? It's a good thing JLR sell no cars abroad...

Umm JLR already manufacturers abroad, in China, and has done so for years.

http://www.cheryjaguarlandrover.com/mob_static/other/factory_changshu_en.php

It's a full end to end plant, complete with pressing, body, assembly and engine plant, manufacturing Land Rover, Range Rover and Jag products for the Asian market. It will also make the E-pace as part of its next expansion (a model that was debuted in China, as a Chinese made product, a very deliberate move by JLR), with further models in the pipeline.

It's a part of JLRs China Made project (supporting the Made in China 2025 project the Chinese government has), because oddly enough the senior management and the rest of the motor industry know full well that the Chinese will buy Chinese made cars, even JLR product (actually given the sales growth for JLR in China, it could be argued because it's locally made).

Which considering China is the largest car market in the world (and largest car manufacturing country in the world) comes as zero surprise to those who work in the industry.

 

[PzR Slim]

Soft Brexit it is.

 

[baldgye]

Soft Brexit it is.

Assuming the EU agree... Jesus how depressing... we voted to weaken our nation...

 

[TenEightyOne]

Soft Brexit it is.

I don't know what they're going to detonate in Stoke but it looks like it's going to make a hell of a mess of Scotland.

 

[baldgye]

I don't know what they're going to detonate in Stoke but it looks like it's going to make a hell of a mess of Scotland.

View attachment 749476

Wait, maybe I can get behind Brexit if they’re going to detonate Stoke!

 

[Touring Mars]

Soft Brexit it is.

I stumbled in from the pub last night to see the headlines on the Guardian ("May convinces cabinet to seek Soft Brexit") and the Telegraph ("May betrays us all/we're staying in the EU"), but in the cold (hungover) light of day, I'm struggling a bit to see how this proposal is any different to what the government have been saying (and what the EU have consistently ruled out) all along... the only thing that has changed is that the UK government appear to now agree, which is a minor miracle which May deserves some credit for, but I can't see how it's going to fly.

Perhaps May has realised that in order to win this particular battle, she needs to start playing by the EU rulebook (ironically!) and learn how to rebadge a total failure and portray it as a massive success.

Still, I'm pretty happy with the idea of a soft Brexit - so now if you'll excuse me, I've got some popcorn in the microwave and I'm off to read the comments section in the Telegraph... this is going to be funny!

 

[baldgye]

 

[UKMikey]

Now with added salt.

 

[baldgye]

Now with added salt.

Should note that it has a high nut content..


Though to be fair, she does look a bit like the Spitting Image version of Maggy, which is what the Mail/Telegraph have been trying to see her as since her promotion, so there’s that

 

[UKMikey]

Having followed @Touring Mars's advice and perused the comments section of the paywalled Telegraph "MAY BETRAYED US ALL!!!!1!!!" article I'm shocked at how even handed it seems to be.

Not only do remainers seem to be fairly well represented but many of the staunch leavers seem to be fairly sanguine about the decision (expecting the EU to self destruct or some insufferable euro-edict to cause us to flounce out anyway) rather than flying into apoplexies of feather-spitting rage.

Guess it's the Mail or Express I should be looking at for that.

 

[polysmut]

So -- we're back to the personal attacks then.

I've pondered on your comment on and off even though I've been too busy to stay very active on the forum recently.
I stand by my post, I meant it as a commentary on a public figure portraying a false image to garner support. If I offended the Greene King brewery in the crossfire, I also think my comment holds up in that sense.

 

[UKMikey]

If I offended the Greene King brewery in the crossfire, I also think my comment holds up in that sense.

At the risk of repeating myself, and speaking as a beer drinker, I think any offence caused towards Greene King is likely to be retaliatory in nature.