Britain - The Official Thread

[Beeblebrox237]

Oh yes, of course they do!

Good, I'm glad we agree that the policy is justified.

Just like I have the right to racially and sexually abuse everyone I come across in the street as long as I don't incite violence. Would you say it's right for me to use/abuse that right?

No, you don't have the right to abuse people.

 

[KSaiyu]

Sorry verbally abuse

 

[Beeblebrox237]

Sorry verbally abuse

To quote the Public Order Act of 1986:

(1)A person is guilty of an offence if, with intent to cause a person harassment, alarm or distress, he—

(a)uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour, or disorderly behaviour, or

(b)displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,

thereby causing that or another person harassment, alarm or distress.

 

[KSaiyu]

You're saying I can't call someone a tosser any more. When did this happen and why wasn't I informed.

I'm also interested to know where you would want to draw the line under appeasement. We've seen state schools segregating classrooms - is this a step too far?

 

[Famine]

To quote the Public Order Act of 1986:

That's just a law.

 

[KSaiyu]

That's just a law.

*Please don't find my post where I was so innocent.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

You're saying I can't call someone a tosser any more. When did this happen and why wasn't I informed.

Are you putting me on or are you really this thick?

I'm also interested to know where you would want to draw the line under appeasement. We've seen state schools segregating classrooms - is this a step too far?

I suggest that you learn what the word appeasement means before trying to use it in a sentence.

 

[Keef]

To quote the Public Order Act of 1986:

That's just a law.

Didn't we have a discussion about the concept of morality the other day? And here you are using a law as justification while debating a moral issue, @Beeblebrox237. Think about that for a second. And go easy on the cockiness - we Mericans don't take kindly to it.

 

[TheCracker]

It's not, but it's unfair for the majority and sets a crappy precedent.

Would you believe me if I said our own ex Lord Chief Justice has suggested cartoonists shouldn't offend muslims?

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/law/article4350117.ece

I totally agree that some of this stuff is just stupid. But you've got to pick your battles. And this school diner issue, in just one small London borough, has to be put into perspective.

 

[Lizard]

Let's just decide not to serve it is in effect a ban, same result, without having to defend yourself about making a decision to outright ban it.

The people implementing it are different. The Daily fail blames the council whilst the truth is it is the management of the schools.

 

[KSaiyu]

I totally agree that some of this stuff is just stupid. But you've got to pick your battles. And this school diner issue, in just one small London borough, has to be put into perspective.

Allow me to put it into perspective: Islington will become like my "one small London borough" in 10-20 years if it continues its attitude and be famous for not much else than being the home of troubled young men who get arrested for faking their own death to get back into the country after returning from jihad.

Sooner or later the indigenous population will realise what we immigrants and 2nd generation British know, that it is unfortunately already a case of "us and them". Which really sucks to say as we quite liked the multicultural thing.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

The big deal is you punish everyone's freedom for a minority.

Are you?

Of all the foodstuffs, pork is one of the most difficult to store properly. The meat can be a breeding ground for parasites, and of course must be cooked evenly to offset the risk. Once cooked, there is a range of temperatures where food becomes susceptible to bacteria; in the case of pork, that window is wider than any other meat, and bacteria will breed in pork faster than in other meats.

Now, if you look at the state of the public education system, you will find that it will take a hell of a lot of time, effort and money to maintain adequate facilities in public schools.

I now cannot go to a non-halal butcher in my area, all my food in the local university (which I'm thankfully not a student of) is halal meat only

Here's the problem: it's not about you.

Consider it from the butcher's perspective. They are typically small businesses relying on the local community to maintain a profit. As the demographics of that community change, that butcher must tailor products to suit public demand. They cannot reasonably shut an entire segment of their market out just because they don't want to be halal-certified. If they do, they will likely go out of business. Likewise the university - they must provide products to suit the market.

Furthermore, my local butcher is halal-certified. It doesn't bother me. And why not? Because you cannot taste the difference between halal meat and non-halal meat.

Let's imagine what Joe public is thinking.

Gee my son can't have his favourite meal of sausages and mash on Thursday anymore. Should I blame the school for ignoring my concerns (right) or those dark people who keep themselves to themselves with their funny demands (wrong but easier).

Let's imagine what Mohammed Q. Public is thinking:

Gee, my son comes home hungry because he cannot eat the food that the school serves. The school doesn't have the budget to provide a range of meals, and so have chosen to ignore their duty of care to my child and instead think that it is entirely appropriate to ask that I observe a different standard because it's easier than dealing with parents who feel threatened by a culture that they have made no effort to understand.

The more you try and manufacture multiculturalism, the worse it gets for everyone.

Ah, the mainstay of modern social and political conservatism: the assumption that any change is a threat to your values, because a world where modern and traditional values co-exist is inconceivable.

 

[KSaiyu]

Are you?

Of all the foodstuffs, pork is one of the most difficult to store properly. The meat can be a breeding ground for parasites, and of course must be cooked evenly to offset the risk. Once cooked, there is a range of temperatures where food becomes susceptible to bacteria; in the case of pork, that window is wider than any other meat, and bacteria will breed in pork faster than in other meats.

Now, if you look at the state of the public education system, you will find that it will take a hell of a lot of time, effort and money to maintain adequate facilities in public schools.

Funny how we manage to provide this option in other public schools then.

Here's the problem: it's not about you.

That's what you took from that?

Consider it from the butcher's perspective. They are typically small businesses relying on the local community to maintain a profit. As the demographics of that community change, that butcher must tailor products to suit public demand. They cannot reasonably shut an entire segment of their market out just because they don't want to be halal-certified. If they do, they will likely go out of business. Likewise the university - they must provide products to suit the market.

Furthermore, my local butcher is halal-certified. It doesn't bother me. And why not? Because you cannot taste the difference between halal meat and non-halal meat.

I'm just peeved I can't get pigs trotters to practice suturing on if I'm honest.

Let's imagine what Mohammed Q. Public is thinking:

Gee, my son comes home hungry because he cannot eat the food that the school serves. The school doesn't have the budget to provide a range of meals, and so have chosen to ignore their duty of care to my child and instead think that it is entirely appropriate to ask that I observe a different standard because it's easier than dealing with parents who feel threatened by a culture that they have made no effort to understand.

Wrong, wrong wrong. There is ALWAYS a halal option - the schools have just decided that ALL kids will have to eat this "option". Fundamental misunderstanding here.

Ah, the mainstay of modern social and political conservatism: the assumption that any change is a threat to your values, because a world where modern and traditional values co-exist is inconceivable.

Heheh, let's see where these values lead us shall we.

 

[Carbonox]

Let's imagine what Mohammed Q. Public is thinking:

Gee, my son comes home hungry because he cannot eat the food that the school serves. The school doesn't have the budget to provide a range of meals, and so have chosen to ignore their duty of care to my child and instead think that it is entirely appropriate to ask that I observe a different standard because it's easier than dealing with parents who feel threatened by a culture that they have made no effort to understand.

Waaahhh. Waaahhh. My son is hungry because he's been raised to say 'no' to certain foods for reasons that have nothing to do with his well-being. The school should accommodate our regressive culture because all cultures are equal. Waaahhh.

 

[ExigeEvan]

Let's imagine what Mohammed Q. Public is thinking:

Gee, my son comes home hungry because he cannot eat the food that the school serves. The school doesn't have the budget to provide a range of meals, and so have chosen to ignore their duty of care to my child and instead think that it is entirely appropriate to ask that I observe a different standard because it's easier than dealing with parents who feel threatened by a culture that they have made no effort to understand.
.

There's always the vegetarian option, which I'm quite sure all schools offer.

Halal isn't just about culture, it's about ethics. Many don't agree with the Halal way of slaughter, and certainly there's some justification to that, especially when the reasoning is as poor as "because religion".

Personally however slaughter methods don't bother me, I put more value in the quality of life than the method of slaughter.

 

[KSaiyu]

I'd like to propose an experiment. Prisonermonkeys, shall we walk hand in hand through my home-town and see how long these "modern values" that you seem to believe I'm objecting against hold up? We aren't really a deprived area, but I can bet I'll know the places where we won't be welcome should we do this.

 

[squadops]

What ever happened to a sack lunch?

I thought school was designed to provide education in a safe environment, a paid service through tax(public) or directly(private). You get what you pay for and it would not surprise me if the stinkers on this subject pay zero(tax or otherwise) for this service they claim to be sub par. Pathetic.

 

[KSaiyu]

The product of a left leaning government. Ironically the bill to provide free schools for every child leads to situations like this, and even poorer provision of meals to the most deprived pupils as in the past only those below a cut-off qualified for free school meals. This was beneficial to the school as a family registering their child for the free meals would get a small increase in their budget. With free school meals for all there is no incentive to register the child, therefore cutting a revenue stream for the school, leading to less budget to provide more services. As we are seeing this can be to the detriment of the majority demographic pupils since any minority can claim discrimination against the school, and unfortunately a certain minority is notorious for playing the victim in such matters.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Funny how we manage to provide this option in other public schools then.

I think you will find that many of these programs are funded at the local level.

There is ALWAYS a halal option - the schools have just decided that ALL kids will have to eat this "option".

And again, you can't tell the difference in taste between halal and non-halal.

The product of a left leaning government.

Typical conservative nonsense - blame the left for everything, even your own policies.

Waaahhh. Waaahhh. My son is hungry because he's been raised to say 'no' to certain foods for reasons that have nothing to do with his well-being. The school should accommodate our regressive culture because all cultures are equal. Waaahhh.

Waaahhh. Waaahhh. The only way for me to feel comfortable is for people to abandon their cultural identity and immediately and unquestioningly assume my superior values and way of life, a standard that I do not need to observe myself and a statement that I do not need to support with any empirical evidence. If anybody fails to do this, then I have the moral responsibility to assume that anybody like them must be conspiring to undermine everything that I stand for, again without evidence. I am in no way required to recognise the irony of this situation, and can freely justify my actions as "preserving Western progress" or some such culturally-jingoistic notion. And if ever anything goes wrong, it's all the fault of the bleeding-heart liberals who we should also assume want to subvert everything we stand for, just to be safe. Waaahhh.

Can somebody please tell me when a) bigotry and hypocrisy became values and b) they became the cornerstone of civilisation that must be protected at all costs?

 

[KSaiyu]

Typical conservative nonsense - blame the left for everything, even your own policies.

What's the point addressing your counter points if you don't have the courtesy to criticise my argument rather than launching into a pseudo ad-hominem attack.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It wasn't a counter point. It was a correction.

 

[KSaiyu]

It wasn't a counter point. It was a correction.

Your counterpoints in the other post. Did that need explaining to you?

Waaahhh. Waaahhh. The only way for me to feel comfortable is for people to abandon their cultural identity and immediately and unquestioningly assume my superior values and way of life, a standard that I do not need to observe myself and a statement that I do not need to support with any empirical evidence. If anybody fails to do this, then I have the moral responsibility to assume that anybody like them must be conspiring to undermine everything that I stand for, again without evidence. I am in no way required to recognise the irony of this situation, and can freely justify my actions as "preserving Western progress" or some such culturally-jingoistic notion. And if ever anything goes wrong, it's all the fault of the bleeding-heart liberals who we should also assume want to subvert everything we stand for, just to be safe. Waaahhh.

Can somebody please tell me when a) bigotry and hypocrisy became values and b) they became the cornerstone of civilisation that must be protected at all costs?

I'm sorry but this needs to be said. Take me up on my offer and see where your paradise of everyone living together in peace can end up or stop sounding like a Respect party mouthpiece.

Calling me a bigot when I'm a) volunteering to teach kids medical skills in East London, b) going to Palestine on a medical elective and c) have tutored and will continue to tutor predominantly muslim kids (including the cousin of someone who crashed my car and ran off when we were kids) is frankly a terrible line of attack.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I'm sorry but this needs to be said.

That doesn't justify expressing bigotry. Nor is there such a thing as building up goodwill and then cashing it in by saying something bigoted. Just because you volunteer your time, go to Palestine and tutor children, that doesn't mean that you're not a bigot, and nor does it give you an excuse to be one.

Your problem is that you assume cultures cannot co-exist - that there can only be one dominant culture at any given time. And like any conservative who drifts away from the centre-right, you resist change because change is a threat to you. You assume that your ways are the best ways, and that if people find another way of doing something then that must mean that you were wrong in the first place, and you can't bear the thought of that.

Most of the Muslims that I know will point to your attitude as everything that is wrong with society. You don't bother to get to know others, you just assume that they stand for everything you don't, and characterise that as a threat against your way of life. You don't need to provide any evidence of this - you just take a position of cultural superiority and immediately behave as if you are under siege. The irony in all of this is that if any of this was actually true, you wouldn't have anything to worry about because they would never be able to reach the same level of culture as you do.

 

[KSaiyu]

That doesn't justify expressing bigotry. Nor is there such a thing as building up goodwill and then cashing it in by saying something bigoted. Just because you volunteer your time, go to Palestine and tutor children, that doesn't mean that you're not a bigot, and nor does it give you an excuse to be one.

Your problem is that you assume cultures cannot co-exist - that there can only be one dominant culture at any given time. And like any conservative who drifts away from the centre-right, you resist change because change is a threat to you. You assume that your ways are the best ways, and that if people find another way of doing something then that must mean that you were wrong in the first place, and you can't bear the thought of that.

Most of the Muslims that I know will point to your attitude as everything that is wrong with society. You don't bother to get to know others, you just assume that they stand for everything you don't, and characterise that as a threat against your way of life. You don't need to provide any evidence of this - you just take a position of cultural superiority and immediately behave as if you are under siege. The irony in all of this is that if any of this was actually true, you wouldn't have anything to worry about because they would never be able to reach the same level of culture as you do.

Oh God...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Go ahead, prove me wrong. You say you're libertarian elsewhere, but your misplaced outrage over a change in school menus shows otherwise. Tell me, why aren't you up in arms when schools stop serving beef because of a large Hindu population?

 

[KSaiyu]

Because you're suggesting I get to know others when my family has been robbed by those my sister let into the house and my ex best friend is pestering me to obtain abortion pills illegally because he knocked up a white girl.

Go ahead. Say these are isolated incidents etc etc.

Tell me, why aren't you up in arms when schools stop serving beef because of a large Hindu population?

Wait hold on, where does this happen? My ex is a Hindu who works in a school (in Brent no less - the place with the highest proportion of Hindus in Britain) and I'm unaware of this being a thing

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Go ahead. Say these are isolated incidents etc etc.

Oh, they're not isolated incidents. They're just not exclusive to the Muslim community.

 

[KSaiyu]

Oh, they're not isolated incidents. They're just not exclusive to the Muslim community.

Did I say they were. And did you hear the one about when I dated a Muslim girl?

Funnily enough, I think I've done more to "get to know them" than you. Maybe it's you who should practice what you preach

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Did I say they were.

Well, you haven't expressed any outrage towards any other racial, ethnic or socio-economic group ...

 

[KSaiyu]

Well, you haven't expressed any outrage towards any other racial, ethnic or socio-economic group ...

Thanks but I'll avoid your advice on having to do that so I can qualify as an equal opportunity bigot. Instead I'll carry on with being in love with another muslim girl but continue calling out Islam for what I think it is

EDIT: So in summary, more of these stories and less of kowtowing to a minority.