Britain - The Official Thread

[Spurgy 777]

They're not mutually exclusive. If you're willing to call a god a sky fairy I'd assume that religion doesn't really matter too much to you, so I'd ask why you care whether or not it's blessed to a sky fairy. We've already established that meat being blessed and humanely slaughtered isn't mutually exclusive.

I don't care at all about it being blessed, I care that the main priority isn't that the slaughter is as humane as possible. Note that I said main priority, I know that a religious slaughter and a humane slaughter aren't mutually exclusive, I just don't like that the humane part isn't the main priority, which is why I'm against halal (or any other method of slaughter where the main priority isn't minimising the suffering of the animal).

I never said you can't have issues with both. Complaining about specifically the ethical issues of halal meat is at best misguided. Complain about whatever the hell you want but I don't really think it's reasonable. We're talking about a very low percentage of animals that aren't stunned before being slaughtered, it's not as if there's a flagrant disregard for the laws to pander to Islam.

It may be a fairly low percentage (I wouldn't say 12-20% was very low), but it's still a large number of animals that aren't killed as humanely as they would be if they were non halal.

I'm fine with people asking to have meat available that's in accordance with the core of their religious beliefs. I know we're all atheists on GTP but I don't think it's really a big deal to serve halal meat to respect an aspect of religious belief. I'm fine with people having ethical issues with farming/slaughtering practices (or whatever, complain about whatever you want). I don't think it's reasonable to have a problem with the ethics of specifically halal meat, and when we're talking about school cafeterias they've gone from serving conventionally produced meat to conventionally produced halal meat. The reason I'm comparing the two is because the change over to halal meat is what's being complained about, not the ethics of factory farmed meat.

I don't mind if halal meat is an option, so long as it isn't the only thing being served, as that is favouring the one group of people over another (in this case people who want halal as opposed to people people who don't want it).

As for why we aren't discussing the ethics of factory farming, one of the reasons is precisely because it's a constant between the two options. The only reason ethical issues with halal is relevant is because the options in this case are solely between halal and non halal. And the main issue is whether or not certain groups should be favoured, which has nothing to do with the ethics of how the animals are farmed at all.

 

[KSaiyu]

Owners of factory farms and industrial slaughterhouses did, believing that, as I said myself, it was more efficient and better for the bottom line. I didn't say that it was more humane to stun the animals, I said stunning is currently the most efficient way to slaughter animals humanely. And again, animals killed by the halal method are 81-88% of the time stunned before being slaughtered, and 100% of the time in Denmark. It's not like we're letting people side step animal cruelty laws and subject animals to excruciating pain.

I'll make it easy. Why do they not take the more efficient way of not stunning?

Did I say something wrong? Or are you speaking for every single English citizen with that emoticon?

I guess I'm a bad libertarian. I just don't think it's worth bothering to have minimum wage cafeteria employees deal with two different types of beef/chicken and go through all the trouble when it's completely reasonable for non muslims to just eat halal meat.

It's completely reasonable to cut beef out of the school menu in a school with a high proportion of Hindus? Or vegetables from those with a high Sikh population?
(Hint, my home town has one of the largest Sikh populations in Britain and we never had vegetable only school days growing up)

 

[homeforsummer]

My Dad spent a couple of years working as a mechanic (specialising in panel repair) in London lately, and £70 a week was only enough to pay for lodgings in a 85-year-old Kerry woman's apartment. In Birmingham on the other hand, £300 a month is enough for his own apartment.

I was looking for work placements on Gradcracker and they had some positions paying ~£18-21k in London - I have a bad feeling half of that would need to cover rent.

I was offered a job in London not so long ago.

I did the maths on whether it would be worth my while. Admittedly I wasn't paying rent at the time so the figures were skewed in my old job's favour, but I'd essentially have to have been paid about 40% more to be roughly as well off in the new job in London as the old job in Yorkshire. Probably more in real terms to cover other expenses associated with the city.

If they showed kids how their meat is killed, in either case, I'm pretty sure less kids would want to eat it.

Quite. I'd hazard that the majority of the population have absolutely no clue how the meat gets from fields to the little styrofoam trays in a supermarket.

Where are the atheists on this? I know there isn't exactly separation of church and state in the U.K. but I frequently see complaints here about god being crammed down one's throat, and now, it literally is being crammed down your children's throat.

As an atheist I can confirm, appropriately, I don't really care either way. For me the quality of the meat and the price I pay are more important than which religion has or hasn't slaughtered something in a particular way.

Admittedly I'd feel more uncomfortable if I learned that the preferred method of slaughter was tearing something apart limb by limb or cutting off the required bits while the beast was still alive, but ultimately as an eater of animals reared specifically to be eaten it's a bit hypocritical to complain about a throat being cut here or there. If anything I'd be more bothered about the years the animal spends crammed in a faeces-covered shed with thousands of others and barely any room to breathe.

To tie this neatly together, that sounds a bit too much like a 24-hour tube journey in London for my tastes.

 

[Touring Mars]

Beloved British TV artist Tony Hart has died for the second time in six years. RIIP.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...twice-morph-forced-to-intervene-10048506.html

 

[Liquid]

Someone edited his Wikipedia to read that his death was in 2015 even though his Wikipedia article must have already said he died in 2009 with the appropriate links, most likely to the one which caused this lazily researched frenzy in the first place?

We live in a strange world.

 

[axletramp]

Someone edited his Wikipedia to read that his death was in 2015 even though his Wikipedia article must have already said he died in 2009 with the appropriate links, most likely to the one which caused this lazily researched frenzy in the first place?

Bet is was Chas. Never trusted him and neither did Morph.

 

[Touring Mars]

One of the racist Chelsea supporters filmed abusing a black man on the Paris Metro earlier this week has been identified as 21 year old Josh Parsons (left).

 

[Beeblebrox237]

I see that they found a clear photo of one of these racists you see in the news. Who's that bloke with him on the left?

 

[Liquid]

You can't judge someone by what football team they support.

Spoiler

Even with "these aren't real fans" comments as has been said today by various football figures, the reality is that actually, yes, these people can be football fans. A person isn't defined by the football team they support and football clubs shouldn't be judged by their fans. As ever, they ought to be judged on their actions as individuals.

If idiots turn up to a game, that is idiots turning up to a game real fan or not. What football and clubs need to do is make clear statements on the back of this and say "We do not accept this kind of behaviour from our fans" and ban them where and when possible; I fully support clubs' rights to disallow people from attending games.

I'd even go further and say the FA and UEFA, which are private entities and not charities or state bodies, have every right to disallow people from pertaining in their activities.

 

[Johnnypenso]

One of the racist Chelsea supporters filmed abusing a black man on the Paris Metro earlier this week has been identified as 21 year old Josh Parsons (left).

The guy to his left is probably some famous conservative or anti-Muslim guy right? Sorry, not up to date on famous Brits.

 

[PeterJB]

That would be UKIP leader Nigel Farage.

 

[Liquid]

Airports and seaports on alert as Fred Talbot tries to flee the country.

 

[Joel]

You can't judge someone by what football team they support.

Even with "these aren't real fans" comments as has been said today by various football figures, the reality is that actually, yes, these people can be football fans. A person isn't defined by the football team they support and football clubs shouldn't be judged by their fans. As ever, they ought to be judged on their actions as individuals.

This is one of my pet peeves whenever sports fans do something racist or homophobic. Like it or not they are real fans, and it does nobody any good to deny that those subsects of fans exist.

There was a similar situation in hockey last spring, when PK Subban, a black player for the Montreal Canadiens, scored a game winning goal in a playoff game against the Boston Bruins (Boston-Montreal is probably the most storied and heated rivalry in hockey, especially with the historical Irish American/Quebecois element). After that, all sorts of racist filth was all over twitter from Boston fans, with Bruins logos and pictures all over their accounts, who tweet almost exclusively about hockey. Naturally, the response was to say that these people who fervently support the Boston Bruins, watch 82 games a year + playoffs, and have $150+ jerseys aren't "real fans". All it does is give people an excuse to bury their head in the sand and avoid the troublesome thought that maybe there's :censored:ty aspects about something I like. I like hockey and I'm not racist, so these racists aren't real fans.

And then Subban was praised for saying that nobody can blame the organization or associate that stuff with the Bruins fanbase. As if it's worse to call Bruins fans racist after a bunch of them said explicitly racist things than to actually be racist. As an aside there's a hilarious irony that Boston fans were the ones throwing racist garbage at PK Subban, when just 2 years ago his younger brother Malcolm Subban was drafted by Boston and is expected to play a big role there some time in the next few years.

 

[MatskiMonk]

You can't judge someone by what football team they support.

Spoiler

Even with "these aren't real fans" comments as has been said today by various football figures, the reality is that actually, yes, these people can be football fans. A person isn't defined by the football team they support and football clubs shouldn't be judged by their fans. As ever, they ought to be judged on their actions as individuals.

If idiots turn up to a game, that is idiots turning up to a game real fan or not. What football and clubs need to do is make clear statements on the back of this and say "We do not accept this kind of behaviour from our fans" and ban them where and when possible; I fully support clubs' rights to disallow people from attending games.

I'd even go further and say the FA and UEFA, which are private entities and not charities or state bodies, have every right to disallow people from pertaining in their activities.

The acts of the dirty, diving, cheating, disrespectful, overpaid, tax dodging, scumbags on the pitch that set a 🤬 example for kids these days is what the club's should be worrying about... They've at least got a chance of controlling the behaviour of people on the payroll.

 

[Johnnypenso]

This is one of my pet peeves whenever sports fans do something racist or homophobic. Like it or not they are real fans, and it does nobody any good to deny that those subsects of fans exist.

There was a similar situation in hockey last spring, when PK Subban, a black player for the Montreal Canadiens, scored a game winning goal in a playoff game against the Boston Bruins (Boston-Montreal is probably the most storied and heated rivalry in hockey, especially with the historical Irish American/Quebecois element). After that, all sorts of racist filth was all over twitter from Boston fans, with Bruins logos and pictures all over their accounts, who tweet almost exclusively about hockey. Naturally, the response was to say that these people who fervently support the Boston Bruins, watch 82 games a year + playoffs, and have $150+ jerseys aren't "real fans". All it does is give people an excuse to bury their head in the sand and avoid the troublesome thought that maybe there's :censored:ty aspects about something I like. I like hockey and I'm not racist, so these racists aren't real fans.

And then Subban was praised for saying that nobody can blame the organization or associate that stuff with the Bruins fanbase. As if it's worse to call Bruins fans racist after a bunch of them said explicitly racist things than to actually be racist. As an aside there's a hilarious irony that Boston fans were the ones throwing racist garbage at PK Subban, when just 2 years ago his younger brother Malcolm Subban was drafted by Boston and is expected to play a big role there some time in the next few years.

Small correction. Montreal and Toronto is the most storied and heated rivalry in hockey. Just sayin'... In regards to PK, he handled it in typical Canadian fashion, basically dismissing the idiots as not even worth his time and just moving forward with his life.

 

[Lizard]

Yes we are lowering the deficit. Or more like passing it on to other people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31562056

 

[RacerPaul]

One of the racist Chelsea supporters filmed abusing a black man on the Paris Metro earlier
this week has been identified as 21 year old Josh Parsons (left)

it's my understanding that Mr Parsons has been identified merely as a possible witness, rather
than one of those being 'racist'

Methinks perhaps the media (and you, possibly) jumped on that picture sharpish to reinforce the
perception that UKIP is 'racist'

Yes we are lowering the deficit. Or more like passing it on to other people.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31562056

A mere drop in the ocean, money-wise. If we weren't so generous in our overseas aid, we could solve
a fair amount of our troubles at home

 

[Famine]

Yes we are lowering the deficit. Or more like passing it on to other people.

That doesn't make any sense - and the words of the article don't bear the conclusion you've drawn there.

It says that just over half of the 147 Foundation Trusts (78) currently run at a deficit - totalling £321m (£4m for each Trust currently running at a deficit) - due to expensive agency staff over the October-December 'busy period'. That means that just under half (69) are in budget.

It then adds that all are expected to be in budget by year end (April) and that budgets will be increased by £2bn next year. Increasing public spending is neither reducing the deficit nor "passing it on"...

 

[KSaiyu]

It says that just over half of the 147 Foundation Trusts (78) currently run at a deficit - totalling £321m (£4m for each Trust currently running at a deficit) - due to expensive agency staff over the October-December 'busy period'. That means that just under half (69) are in budget.

A lot of the budget problems of Trusts would be reduced if we could find a way to make agency work unattractive. How you do that is beyond me since the NHS can only rely on workers' consciences for only so long.

 

[Touring Mars]

it's my understanding that Mr Parsons has been identified merely as a possible witness, rather than one of those being 'racist'

Methinks perhaps the media (and you, possibly) jumped on that picture sharpish to reinforce the
perception that UKIP is 'racist'

Either way, he could do with making wiser choices about who he's seen hanging around with.

 

[Liquid]

Either way, he could do with making wiser choices about who he's seen hanging around with.

I did read this somewhere this morning.

"I'm thinking of setting up a pro-British, anti-immigration, anti-Europe, anti-foreign aid party. Hope it doesn't attract any racists."

 

[Spurgy 777]

I did read this somewhere this morning.

"I'm thinking of setting up a pro-British, anti-immigration, anti-Europe, anti-foreign aid party. Hope it doesn't attract any racists."

Well painting anyone who asks for more control over immigration a racist doesn't exactly help those parties keep the racists away either

 

[RacerPaul]

'Racist' and 'Racism'. Among the most overused words in the world today

And rarely properly, using the correct meanings

 

[KSaiyu]

And so, with 298k net migration in a year I'm wondering if it's time to call time on my dream of working in the UK. I was aware but never understood why so many NHS workers have left for pastures new but with how much has changed so quickly I'm not sure I want to be in this endless loop of providing services for an overpopulated community. What you hear in the papers about the strain on the NHS is not hyperbole - it is literally on its last legs and we have to rely on borderline heroic efforts by staff to keep up the facade of it being fit for purpose.

 

[Carbonox]

Ruining Finland's reputation abroad 101...

 

[Johnnypenso]

Ruining Finland's reputation abroad 101...

Very interesting. Something I certainly wasn't aware of. Finland having a reputation abroad I mean

 

[KSaiyu]

Tell me that these figures, from 2001 and the recent culture shift in attitudes toward a certain group aren't leading to a major catastrophe for Britain. Can we honestly expect people to stay silent about people who have the largest unemployment rates by religion and who at the last count in 2012 (if it's to be believed, I can't find independent verification) had an inordinate amount of benefits claimants (over 50%)? Muslims have the youngest population with the highest propensity to radicalisation and we wonder why ghettos are formed and politics in the areas are bankrupt.

I fear that the tipping point has been reached and our Muslim population have to be prepared for the coming riots because everywhere I go I see resentment and it is ugly and frightening. In my position I'm fortunate to work with people from the proletariat to managerial level and it is a common feeling of unease and distrust. My work on integration feels like pulling weeds and it is high time Muslims accept responsibility for the state their people are in during these worrying times in London. Take it from an NHS worker, current trends are flat out unacceptable and there will be a revolt.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Tell me that these figures, from 2001 and the recent culture shift in attitudes toward a certain group aren't leading to a major catastrophe for Britain. Can we honestly expect people to stay silent about people who have the largest unemployment rates by religion and who at the last count in 2012 (if it's to be believed, I can't find independent verification) had an inordinate amount of benefits claimants (over 50%)? Muslims have the youngest population with the highest propensity to radicalisation and we wonder why ghettos are formed and politics in the areas are bankrupt.

I fear that the tipping point has been reached and our Muslim population have to be prepared for the coming riots because everywhere I go I see resentment and it is ugly and frightening. In my position I'm fortunate to work with people from the proletariat to managerial level and it is a common feeling of unease and distrust. My work on integration feels like pulling weeds and it is high time Muslims accept responsibility for the state their people are in during these worrying times in London. Take it from an NHS worker, current trends are flat out unacceptable and there will be a revolt.

Wait, are you complaining about immigration, or religion, or the benefits system, or the NHS being underfunded? Because they're all issues unto themselves and it sounds a bit like you're blaming it all on Muslims (who according to your figures are/were only 2.78% of the total population. (and the un-employed segment of that is 15% (238,333 out of 57,103,925)) - I'm not saying there aren't some issues that could do with addressing, but we are pretty weak as a nation if attitudes towards such a small number of people can cause a 'major catastrophe' for the country, and a revolt?

 

[KSaiyu]

Nope, not blame the problems on Muslims - that's the fault of a soft government. The exacerbation of the problems, yes, immigration. And Muslims, they will be and already are the target of ire.

Catastrophe? Yes since the current model is unsustainable. The revolt will be against the politics, but the right will opportunistically turn the crosshairs on Muslims

Simply if you want the nhs to continue think about the workers and demand a complete overhaul as frankly people are sick of working for it. However dismiss my argument as plain Muslim hating and you are following the now redundant party line of government. I will say this I have been on both sides of the divide (people mistake me for being Muslim when I have a beard) and people are getting angry.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Nope, not blame the problems on Muslims - that's the fault of a soft government. The exacerbation of the problems, yes, immigration. And Muslims, they will be and already are the target of ire.

Catastrophe? Yes since the current model is unsustainable. The revolt will be against the politics, but the right will opportunistically turn the crosshairs on Muslims

Well, if your prediction is true, for their own sake - yes the Muslim population needs to go to greater lengths to demonstrate that their negative impact in society is minimal... but that won't do much for the actual good of the country, we have too many 'native' people taking more than they contribute, and I think that is one of the areas where the problems lay.

I'm guessing you're seeing a stretched NHS stretched further by an immigrant population?