Britain - The Official Thread

[KSaiyu]

Well, if your prediction is true, for their own sake - yes the Muslim population needs to go to greater lengths to demonstrate that their negative impact in society is minimal...

It's coming true, and that's what's so bloody frustrating because the reformers are seen as pro-west and instantly shut down by the preachers of mediocrity and hate. You say minimal but it's with regret that I have to disagree.

that won't do much for the actual good of the country

It would be a huge boon to the country! We would have far less benefits claimants, more diversity in senior roles (at least in the NHS and teaching which is my limit of experience), role models and a reduced terror threat.

we have too many 'native' people taking more than they contribute, and I think that is one of the areas where the problems lay.

We do, but you have to understand that is their birthright. My parents came from different countries to make a better life for themselves and their families, and contribute to Britain. As the statistics show this is NOT the case with a significant proportion of Muslims (be they Asian or African).

@Scaff questioned my reasoning for bringing up Somalian immigrants in another thread. The reason is in one area of London 73% live in households with benefits. The birth rates for Somalis are also notoriously high, so you end up creating an enclave of people who don't really contribute anything and drain already stretched resources and to top it off are deeply suspicious of the people who pay for them to be afforded such luxury! I will take it you haven't walked through let alone worked in such a ghetto but rest assured that it is as bad as you imagine. Now the difference between this and the native scroungers is that the natives, through the lottery of life have more of a right to scrounge. Like it or not we live in a world with borders, and we are incapable at the moment of looking after our own native proletariat without adding a rapidly expanding population that comes from one of the most violent places on earth and has close to zero inclination to integrate with western society.

I'm guessing you're seeing a stretched NHS stretched further by an immigrant population?

You guess correctly. Immigration is a burden through the sheer volume of patients and also because of the disparity in aptitude in staff. A recent trend is to bring in nurses from the EU, particularly Spain and Portugal and I will not beat around the bush when I say it is bloody terrifying how incompetent some of them are. I've seen patients not have their Warfarin given or recorded, ECG electrodes put on the abdomen and a nurse admit, one year on the job that she does not know the bleep number for a crash call.

Muslims again fare badly here as patients they are without doubt the ones we have to bend over backwards for the most. Staff (bear in mind NHS staff in hospitals in such areas tend to all be migrants) refer to Muslims as "them" or "they" and we all know who they are talking about. We have unwritten protocols when dealing with Muslim patients to avoid staff being sexually harassed and threatened with physical violence. Note this is not exclusive to Muslims - rather necessary measures to deal with the higher incidence rate when working with Muslims.

Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Sure, but it has to come from within the Muslim community and frankly they see it as "if it ain't broke..."

 

[Scaff]

@Scaff questioned my reasoning for bringing up Somalian immigrants in another thread. The reason is in one area of London 73% live in households with benefits. The birth rates for Somalis are also notoriously high, so you end up creating an enclave of people who don't really contribute anything and drain already stretched resources and to top it off are deeply suspicious of the people who pay for them to be afforded such luxury! I will take it you haven't walked through let alone worked in such a ghetto but rest assured that it is as bad as you imagine. Now the difference between this and the native scroungers is that the natives, through the lottery of life have more of a right to scrounge. Like it or not we live in a world with borders, and we are incapable at the moment of looking after our own native proletariat without adding a rapidly expanding population that comes from one of the most violent places on earth and has close to zero inclination to integrate with western society.

I questions the statement you made that certain groups were better advantaged in law and you brought up Somalis as an example.

Now once again your link doesn't work for me, but a quick google brought up this......

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...her-immigrants-what-holds-them-back-road-long

...which may or may not be the same source.

However to use term luxury I would dispute, given that the vast majority of Somalis are refugees they are entitled to less that a 'native', nor do they impact on local council budgets as the lower than normal benefit they receive are payed by central government (via the NASS) and they are entitled to £36.62 per person, per week and is the only benefit they can claim (as opposed to the £51.80 starting rate and other benefits a 'native' can claim).

You also don't mention that on arrival refugees are banned from working, which makes it rather hard to contribute and starts a cycle of poverty.

Personally I would applaud sensible measure to help these people become a functioning and contributing part of society, but vilification and inaccurate claims of better treatment in law are not the answer, yet these seem to be the go-to options for many commentators.

It also not as if the entire community is simply sitting around either....

http://www.hiiraan.com/op4/2013/aug/30806/british_somali_s_it_s_not_all_doom_and_gloom.aspx

Oh and I would caution you about making claims as to where I have been, lived and worked. You don't know me.

 

[MatskiMonk]

It's coming true, and that's what's so bloody frustrating because the reformers are seen as pro-west and instantly shut down by the preachers of mediocrity and hate. You say minimal but it's with regret that I have to disagree.

I say minimal because across vast swathes of the country the impact is minimal, granted if you're in a major population centre the ethnic groups become large enough in numbers to be noticed, and yes I wouldn't dispute they might have an effect there.

It would be a huge boon to the country! We would have far less benefits claimants, more diversity in senior roles (at least in the NHS and teaching which is my limit of experience), role models and a reduced terror threat.

Sorry, I've got to take issue with this, far less benefits claimants is way way of an exaggeration... As an example (and I'll say before I start that I know benefits have changed), we had a guy working for us, nice enough, white, no religious preference, had his first child at 16, then two more at about 3/4 year intervals. Didn't marry his girlfriend, and wasn't paid that badly, had a 3 bed council house which he paid about £375 a month for, so WELL below local averages (mine is a two bed and a bargain at £500). He was pulling down near enough £900 a month in benefits (it wasn't "worth" his girlfriend working). So one day, I check the most recent census to see how many other households matched his situation. 153,000. So each month 153,000 × 900 = £137,700,000 is/was being paid to people that had kids they couldn't afford, and choose not to work. I understand if things are tight... but seriously iPhone's, Sky, superfast broadband, regular Domino's... frankly it's disgusting and infuriating for someone like me, who has no kids, pays quite a lot of income tax, works my ass off to make sure we give people jobs, puts in all the extra hours to make suer the company is successful, so we can give a big chunk of our profits back to the government, so they can hand it out to people with no real compunction about their situation. Hell, one of my best friends took three years off work on "incapacity", he didn't work, his girlfriend didn't work, with two kids and the "incapacity" they still supported themselves for that long, with a car, with SkyTV, with broadband, with beer money...

... if you want to cut down on the benefit bill. Stop giving money to people that spawn children they can't afford.

We do, but you have to understand that is their birthright. My parents came from different countries to make a better life for themselves and their families, and contribute to Britain. As the statistics show this is NOT the case with a significant proportion of Muslims (be they Asian or African).

Islam doesn't teach them to be lazy, our system allows them to be, sure change it for them, but change it for us too. Make this country less of an easy option for everyone. Being a sponger should not be a birthright.

@Scaff questioned my reasoning for bringing up Somalian immigrants in another thread. The reason is in one area of London 73% live in households with benefits. The birth rates for Somalis are also notoriously high, so you end up creating an enclave of people who don't really contribute anything and drain already stretched resources and to top it off are deeply suspicious of the people who pay for them to be afforded such luxury! I will take it you haven't walked through let alone worked in such a ghetto but rest assured that it is as bad as you imagine. Now the difference between this and the native scroungers is that the natives, through the lottery of life have more of a right to scrounge. Like it or not we live in a world with borders, and we are incapable at the moment of looking after our own native proletariat without adding a rapidly expanding population that comes from one of the most violent places on earth and has close to zero inclination to integrate with western society.

I'm not saying these places don't exist, but I also know that there's areas populated by white, non-religious pond-scum, that I'd totally avoid also, and you can bet your ass they are not paying their own way.

You guess correctly. Immigration is a burden through the sheer volume of patients and also because of the disparity in aptitude in staff. A recent trend is to bring in nurses from the EU, particularly Spain and Portugal and I will not beat around the bush when I say it is bloody terrifying how incompetent some of them are. I've seen patients not have their Warfarin given or recorded, ECG electrodes put on the abdomen and a nurse admit, one year on the job that she does not know the bleep number for a crash call.

Muslims again fare badly here as patients they are without doubt the ones we have to bend over backwards for the most. Staff (bear in mind NHS staff in hospitals in such areas tend to all be migrants) refer to Muslims as "them" or "they" and we all know who they are talking about. We have unwritten protocols when dealing with Muslim patients to avoid staff being sexually harassed and threatened with physical violence. Note this is not exclusive to Muslims - rather necessary measures to deal with the higher incidence rate when working with Muslims.

Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Sure, but it has to come from within the Muslim community and frankly they see it as "if it ain't broke..."

I have an idea of how stretched the NHS is, my cousin is an A & E nurse, I also know how mismanaged, abused and almost corrupt certain sections of it are (as a supplier to the NHS). The NHS has a budget of 115 Billion pounds, if that is not enough for them to operate properly I highly doubt it's down to 285,000 unemployed Muslims.

I'm not even totally disagreeing with sentiment of what you say, but honestly, targeting one minority [edit: based on their religion], to try and lessen the burden really is the thin end of the wedge... when that doesn't work what next?

 

[KSaiyu]

I questions the statement you made that certain groups were better advantaged in law and you brought up Somalis as an example.

Not quite. I brought up Somalia in reference to benefits being freely given with no expectation of payback.

Now once again your link doesn't work for me, but a quick google brought up this......

http://www.economist.com/news/brita...her-immigrants-what-holds-them-back-road-long

...which may or may not be the same source.

It is. Must be an Economist quirk.

However to use term luxury I would dispute,

Relative luxury.

given that the vast majority of Somalis are refugees they are entitled to less that a 'native', nor do they impact on local council budgets as the lower than normal benefit they receive are payed by central government (via the NASS) and they are entitled to £36.62 per person, per week and is the only benefit they can claim (as opposed to the £51.80 starting rate and other benefits a 'native' can claim).

Which is still money coming from the state, and the paltry amount is another reason to hate the success of the West.

You also don't mention that on arrival refugees are banned from working, which makes it rather hard to contribute and starts a cycle of poverty.

I don't, but if you read further then you'll see even with the benefit of a western education Somalis are left behind growing up in Britain, and many unemployable from their teens and beyond.

Personally I would applaud sensible measure to help these people become a functioning and contributing part of society,

Hence my work in such communities at reduced rate. Let me tell you sometimes it is like teaching a stone such is the reluctance to embrace ideas or take on board criticism.

but vilification and inaccurate claims of better treatment in law are not the answer, yet these seem to be the go-to options for many commentators.

It also not as if the entire community is simply sitting around either....

http://www.hiiraan.com/op4/2013/aug/30806/british_somali_s_it_s_not_all_doom_and_gloom.aspx

Unfortunately these are sporadic examples. The author doesn't dispute the statistics instead cherry picking exceptional Brit Somalians. It's the same as bringing up Schindler and Hosenfeld as proof Nazis aren't so bad (no Somalians aren't Nazis, I'm just too tired to think of a more PC example).

Oh and I would caution you about making claims as to where I have been, lived and worked. You don't know me.

I PMed.

I say minimal because across vast swathes of the country the impact is minimal, granted if you're in a major population centre the ethnic groups become large enough in numbers to be noticed, and yes I wouldn't dispute they might have an effect there.

Yep minimal for now. But it grows, and grows and suddenly it isn't a uniquely East London problem but West, then North etc etc.

Sorry, I've got to take issue with this, far less benefits claimants is way way of an exaggeration...

Is it? You have a population growing that is becoming more dependent on benefits. It's simple logic.

As an example (and I'll say before I start that I know benefits have changed), we had a guy working for us, nice enough, white, no religious preference, had his first child at 16, then two more at about 3/4 year intervals. Didn't marry his girlfriend, and wasn't paid that badly, had a 3 bed council house which he paid about £375 a month for, so WELL below local averages (mine is a two bed and a bargain at £500). He was pulling down near enough £900 a month in benefits (it wasn't "worth" his girlfriend working). So one day, I check the most recent census to see how many other households matched his situation. 153,000. So each month 153,000 × 900 = £137,700,000 is/was being paid to people that had kids they couldn't afford, and choose not to work. I understand if things are tight... but seriously iPhone's, Sky, superfast broadband, regular Domino's... frankly it's disgusting and infuriating for someone like me, who has no kids, pays quite a lot of income tax, works my ass off to make sure we give people jobs, puts in all the extra hours to make suer the company is successful, so we can give a big chunk of our profits back to the government, so they can hand it out to people with no real compunction about their situation. Hell, one of my best friends took three years off work on "incapacity", he didn't work, his girlfriend didn't work, with two kids and the "incapacity" they still supported themselves for that long, with a car, with SkyTV, with broadband, with beer money...

No argument here. I never said it was a Muslim problem..? It's purely coincidental that the only two people I know who play the Benefits system are Muslim but I say that it's just that - coincidence.

... if you want to cut down on the benefit bill. Stop giving money to people that spawn children they can't afford.

Is what I want....

Islam doesn't teach them to be lazy, our system allows them to be, sure change it for them, but change it for us too. Make this country less of an easy option for everyone. Being a sponger should not be a birthright.

Agreed again.... But yes it shouldn't be a birthright - but such is the world.

I'm not saying these places don't exist, but I also know that there's areas populated by white, non-religious pond-scum, that I'd totally avoid also, and you can bet your ass they are not paying their own way.

All about the potential to spill over/spread. White, non-religious pond-scum don't end up in Syria, or are far less likely here in the UK to plot/carry out a terrorist attack (note UK - European terror attacks apparently are less motivated by religion)

I have an idea of how stretched the NHS is, my cousin is an A & E nurse, I also know how mismanaged, abused and almost corrupt certain sections of it are (as a supplier to the NHS). The NHS has a budget of 115 Billion pounds, if that is not enough for them to operate properly I highly doubt it's down to 285,000 unemployed Muslims.

Never said it was. Read again what I wrote.

I'm not even totally disagreeing with sentiment of what you say, but honestly, targeting one minority [edit: based on their religion], to try and lessen the burden really is the thin end of the wedge... when that doesn't work what next?

Please highlight where I targeted one minority unfairly.

------------

I fear the message is being lost. This is more about my hatred of Labour and their repeated instances of cover ups to the detriment of working class people. Muslim scandals are only the latest and most visible. If you want a non-Muslim example of hushed up infiltration of an institution by paedophiles please look no further than Islington:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/jul/06/children.childprotection

Here is an even better example of how they connive to hamper genuine progress:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vidence-Left-sabotaged-NHS-success-story.html

So I can hopefully be believed about grooming gangs: (Fun game - try and find any paper that is allowing the public to comment online on an article about the report)

An urgent national debate is needed to address the disproportionate number of Muslim men among groups convicted of using and selling young teenagers for sex, according to a landmark report.

Failings by police and care professionals led to more than 370 young girls in Oxfordshire falling victim to “conveyor-belt” sex crimes over the past 15 years, a serious case review published yesterday concluded

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article4371626.ece

Their sheer contempt for the working class white and most vulnerable deserves to be exposed, and I applaud the recent steps proposed that would see jailing of those complicit in such evil attitudes and actions (or rather inaction) as a consequence. My attitudes are not constrained by racial/religious prejudice. If you're interested look up the reasons for my choice of profile pic.

I'd also be wary of jumping straight to potentially assuming "KSaiyu is anti-Muslim" since I am a medic who is actively involved in broadening Muslim contributions to the profession.

This will be my last edit, but I think it needs posting to show just how god-awful Rotherham was:

The Rotherham Common Purpose Effect

The ongoing scandal concerning the industrial scale of abuse of young children in Rotherham provided us with an opportunity to bring into sharp public focus any networks of Common Purpose operatives found within the strategic partnerships made up of various public sector organisations in Rotherham and the wider geographical area.

The 159 page Jay report ‘Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation in Rotherham 1997 – 2013’ makes more than uncomfortable reading. A flavour can be obtained from the following extracts from the Executive Summary of that report:

• Our conservative estimate is that approximately 1400 children were sexually exploited over the full Inquiry period, from 1997 to 2013.
• They were raped by multiple perpetrators, trafficked to other towns and cities in the north of England, abducted, beaten, and intimidated. There were examples of children who had been doused in petrol and threatened with being set alight, threatened with guns, made to witness brutally violent rapes and threatened they would be next if they told anyone. Girls as young as 11 were raped by large numbers of male perpetrators.
• Over the first twelve years covered by this Inquiry, the collective failures of political and officer leadership were blatant.
• The Police gave no priority to CSE, regarding many child victims with contempt and failing to act on their abuse as a crime. Further stark evidence came in 2002, 2003 and 2006 with three reports known to the Police and the Council, which could not have been clearer in their description of the situation in Rotherham. The first of these reports was effectively suppressed and the others were ignored and no action was taken to deal with the issues that were identified in them.
• Seminars for elected members and senior officers in 2004-05 presented the abuse in the most explicit terms.

The remainder of the Jay report is equally damning. For 16 years, not only did the police and social services turn a blind eye, sometimes the police even harassed those who were whistleblowers.

Is there a provable behind the scenes connection between those leading South Yorkshire Police and Rotherham MBC Officers?

David “more concerned with reputation than catching abusers” Compton: Chief Constable, South Yorkshire Police (2012–Present). Whilst Assistant Chief Constable, West Yorkshire Police, Compton Graduated as a Common Purpose Matrix Graduate (1994).

Robert Dyson QPM: Temporary Chief Constable prior to the appointment of David Compton. Deputy Chief Constable, South Yorkshire Police (2007 -2012). Is currently the Independent Chair of Barnsley Safeguarding Children Board. Dyson became a Common Purpose Matrix Graduate in 2002 and is a member of Common Purpose Sheffield City Region Group.

Martin “no council officers will face disciplinary action” Kimber: Chief Executive, Rotherham MBC (2009 - present). Kimber recently declared to MPs that child sex abuse files were “missing from the council archive”. Whilst Head of Service, Barnsley Metropolitan Borough Council in 1992 Kimber became a Common Purpose Matrix Graduate.

http://www.ukcolumn.org/article/rotherham-common-purpose-effect

 

[Dotini]

http://beforeitsnews.com/blogging-c...ty-using-behavioral-modification-2445756.html

Never heard of this Common Purpose Matrix. But now it seems they have already taken over the world like the Borg. Resistance is futile!

 

[KSaiyu]

I hadn't heard of them either until you posted that link.

I just worry for our future, and how we can best protect our Muslim population for the reprisals that will come because of their weak leadership and inability to confront the inescapable truth of their religion.

If anyone is interested in life for a woman in East London, I recommend Brick Lane

I know from personal experience of women being banned from learning English so as to bar them from integrating with society. It is high time Britain woke up to the mess it has created and the hell that life can be as a Muslim woman.

 

[Scaff]

I fear the message is being lost. This is more about my hatred of Labour and their repeated instances of cover ups to the detriment of working class people. Muslim scandals are only the latest and most visible. If you want a non-Muslim example of hushed up infiltration of an institution by paedophiles please look no further than Islington:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2003/jul/06/children.childprotection

Waving the stick at one single political party on this risks excusing those in other parties who have been arguably just as lax.

Two example would be the fact that while Rotherham was a Labour run council it has also always had council members from other parties sitting on it as well, they too maintained the same level of silence; the other would be the total and utter mess the current government has made of selecting a chair for the Historic Abuse Inquiry, with many of the survivor groups questioning if the establishment was still trying to cover its own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Inquiry_into_Child_Sexual_Abuse#Chair_of_inquiry

Here is an even better example of how they connive to hamper genuine progress:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...vidence-Left-sabotaged-NHS-success-story.html

Now aside from the source being more than a tad biased in this case its still not beyond a possibility that the report could be accurate.

What the Mail piece doesn't point out is that the areas which patient groups were positive about also matched the areas the report were positive about (Children care and Maternity for example), while emergency care was acknowledged as a difficult area by the hospital itself.

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Hin...anges-Circle/story-26117781-detail/story.html

Its not quite the cut and dried 'evil lefties kill wholesome private NHS hospital' that the Mail (no surprise) would like to make it out to be.

So I can hopefully be believed about grooming gangs: (Fun game - try and find any paper that is allowing the public to comment online on an article about the report)

I don't recall anyone saying that grooming gangs didn't exist, rather that they were not unique to any one cultural or social group.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I hadn't heard of them either until you posted that link.

I just worry for our future, and how we can best protect our Muslim population for the reprisals that will come because of their weak leadership and inability to confront the inescapable truth of their religion.

If anyone is interested in life for a woman in East London, I recommend Brick Lane

I know from personal experience of women being banned from learning English so as to bar them from integrating with society. It is high time Britain woke up to the mess it has created and the hell that life can be as a Muslim woman.

When you generalise like that, or when you use a correct-but-isolated fact to prove the rest of your argument/agenda by association then you've basically become the Daily Mail. It'll be a matter of days before you're reporting house prices and whether or not carrots cure cancer.

At least you ended with "the hell that life can be", I know a number of Muslim women and none of them live in any kind of Sharia-based servitude.

 

[KSaiyu]

When you generalise like that, or when you use a correct-but-isolated fact to prove the rest of your argument/agenda by association then you've basically become the Daily Mail. It'll be a matter of days before you're reporting house prices and whether or not carrots cure cancer.

At least you ended with "the hell that life can be", I know a number of Muslim women and none of them live in any kind of Sharia-based servitude.

East London Bengali please, especially the "freshies" (fresh off the boat, you get the idea) - women brought from Bangladesh for the sole intention (and I mean sole) of being a house slave to a man (usually diabetic, high chance it is a cousin). Come and find out. I am tired of the same "not all Muslim women" excuse trotted out by people who don't live and work in the community. Fair enough, Pakistanis and Somalis may not be so bad - the last Somali kid I tutored had a mother who spoke to me in English but only through a door.

I'm glad you picked up on my use of "can be". The most independent Muslim women I know, who incidentally was raped as a child and is to this day forced by her family to cover it up shows that you can be a pretty secular muslim. The Somali student nurse I taught was brave for picking a career (even if she happened to be my worst student so far) but I feel sad knowing she has probably suffered FGM.
Then again according to the Telegraph 75% of Muslim women (I can't verify this number, but considering the verified benefits numbers it's not as far fetched as you might think) are unemployed so I guess yeah, say I'm a DM/Mailograph reader and move on.

I have a problem in my community and I am speaking up for those that you do not see. I know you come with good intentions, but drive by comments without first hand knowledge of the actual problem is a thing of the past, at least I hope it is. I appreciate that all of this may be a shock to the wider population but it is safe to say you have no idea what you have let into the Country.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I have a problem in my community and I am speaking up for those that you do not see. I know you come with good intentions, but drive by comments without first hand knowledge of the actual problem is a thing of the past, at least I hope it is. I appreciate that all of this may be a shock to the wider population but it is safe to say you have no idea what you have let into the Country.

That horse is a little high. At least we're getting somewhere when you accept that you all see is not all that others see. You can patronise me all you like but the large number of Muslims I know whose life is far removed from that which you describe is evidence enough (for me) that the stereotyping of Muslim life and Isla'am in general is as useless in this case as in any other.

 

[KSaiyu]

Fair enough, I can't argue against your experiences.

Thought I'd add this - please bear in mind this is also the borough of our capital city with an investigation into its laughably criminal politics:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5229872.stm

These lines are my favourite:

It was quite noticeable that there were almost no women directly involved in the march. One of the two who did march was Salina Akhtar, 41, who lives not far from Brick Lane.

She said she didn't know why women were not at the protest, but said the female members of the Bangladeshi community were upset by Ms Ali's novel.
Muhammad Shahabuddin, 56, from Plaistow, London, said the lack of female representation was because "Muslim women are very conservative and they don't feel comfortable coming here.

B:censored:ks Mr Shahabuddin. You lock away your women because you can't stand them having a voice. If you somehow find this and want to sue me for libel like your brother in arm George Galloway (peace be upon him) you know where to find me. I won't be threatened by £6k legal fees like your perverted friend is trying.

As we say around this side of London, "Come at me bro"

Oh and watch out concerned Brits, the police are on to you:

One officer, however, did spring into action when a bit of pushing and shoving broke out between a protester and Dan Simon, 28, of south-east London, who admitted he was shouting and remonstrating with the marchers.

He was pulled to one side and given a bit of a talking-to by the policeman. Dan later said he was annoyed the film-makers were "thwarted" by the Bangladeshi community.

I re-iterate.

You have no idea what you have let in. The sooner we stop apologising for this sad excuse of a religion and actively help Muslims avoid a future of isolation and anger the better.

 

[Scaff]

Fair enough, I can't argue against your experiences.

For about two paragraphs that is, before DM mode kicks back in.

You have no idea what you have let in.

You're citing a story from 2006 and missed out this bit.....

"Some 120 members of the Bangladeshi community from London and beyond marched in protest against the forthcoming film adaptation of Monica Ali's novel, Brick Lane."


.....so 120 people are the whole Bangladeshi community now? Ever considered that the rest didn't turn up because they are simply too busy getting on with life and not being the vocal idiot minority?

Seem's not, yet you (once again) tar the majority for the actions of the minority.

Oh and adding in 'quote' titles like that does nothing at all to make you look any less rabidly biased, quite the opposite.

 

[KSaiyu]

.....so 120 people are the whole Bangladeshi community now? Ever considered that the rest didn't turn up because they are simply too busy getting on with life and not being the vocal idiot minority?

Seem's not, yet you (once again) tar the majority for the actions of the minority.

Hello again, would that be these guys?

Between 2001 and 2002, particularly among men, Bangladeshis had the highest unemployment rate in Britain at 20%, which is four times that for White British or White Irish men. The Bangladeshi women also had the highest unemployment rate of all at 24 per cent, and over 40 per cent of under the age 25 Bangladeshi men were unemployed.[32] Unemployment was mostly high amongst the youths, for example in Tower Hamlets itself had 32% of people aged between 18–25 years who were unemployed. The rates of unemployment and under-achievement are sometimes very common with Bangladeshis. The average earnings of the Bangladeshis were at only £150 per week, which is considered to be very low.

I did consider that the rest didn't turn up because they were busy getting on with life. Then I remembered I actually, you know, work with this community.

EDIT: I will also reply to your post in a bit. I'm currently chasing up why two of my peers didn't turn up for a sign-in session on surface anatomy. I'd bring up their religion but, you know, I wouldn't want to come across as racist.

I'll also add that while it's a sad reflection of the times that I appear biased but I hope it's giving people a glimpse of the frustration we feel working in London. I long for a life where I don't have to be a quasi social worker but I'm not about to be one of those who gives up on these kids. It is taking its toll - I can't vent in public for fear of being labelled racist and I am genuinely scared for their future as this is a community relegated to an almost second life as they watch the world pass them by and become increasingly resentful of them (we've inadvertently created Palestine). What keeps me sane are the positives. I'm next to an Israeli student and a few chairs down is a girl in a headscarf. We can make it work, but the old attitude of "lol you biased" is just that - outdated.

 

[Scaff]

Hello again, would that be these guys?

So you're inferring that they are fecklessly unemployed because they are Bangladeshi?

What does that say about unemployment rates in the Welsh Valleys in the 1980s or in parts of Glasgow before redevelopment.

The factors driving unemployment are many and complex, to try and apply such a crude cause to it as this is ridiculous.

I did consider that the rest didn't turn up because they were busy getting on with life. Then I remembered I actually, you know, work with this community.

And for the cheap seats once again, your community is not the UK, its not realistic to project out what is happening in one area of the country and infer its the norm, yet that is exactly what you have repeatedly done.

EDIT: I will also reply to your post in a bit. I'm currently chasing up why two of my peers didn't turn up for a sign-in session on surface anatomy. I'd bring up their religion but, you know, I wouldn't want to come across as racist.

Does strike me as jumping to conclusions.

Now my job is a training manager, responsible for training delivery across a region that includes the UK, Ireland, South Africa and the Middle East. I've never come across such a trend (that race/religion determines how feckless one is), but I only have a data set of half a million training records so what would I know.

I'll also add that while it's a sad reflection of the times that I appear biased but I hope it's giving people a glimpse of the frustration we feel working in London.

One part of London I believe or are you expanding you local experience to the whole capital? It's not a major surprise however as you already expand it to the entire country, why not go for the world next?

I long for a life where I don't have to be a quasi social worker but I'm not about to be one of those who gives up on these kids. It is taking its toll - I can't vent in public for fear of being labelled racist and I am genuinely scared for their future as this is a community relegated to an almost second life as they watch the world pass them by and become increasingly resentful of them (we've inadvertently created Palestine). What keeps me sane are the positives. I'm next to an Israeli student and a few chairs down is a girl in a headscarf. We can make it work, but the old attitude of "lol you biased" is just that - outdated.

Fact of life, if you work with people you get to play that role.

However if your analysis is as shallow as you are displaying here then yes I too would have concerns about venting it in public as it comes across as lacking depth and applying generalizations to the many based on the few. Oddly you seem to think that will solve the problems (it won't).

Oh and we haven't created Palestine, not by a long shot (and a claim that you have is massively dismissive to what the civilian population of Palestine have to deal with), not is it outdated to say that people are biased. Everyone is biased, its being able to recognized and accept that one is biased and work around it that is important.

You see Bangladeshi's in a certain way (unemployed) and are quite happy to throw statistic up and seemingly blame the fact that they are Bangladeshi for it, while still forgetting that the majority are still employed. That is a bias regardless of if you recognise it or even accept it. A reason for the high unemployment rates exists and its almost certainly not because they are of religion x or race y; yet that is exactly how you come across. As such are you actually surprised it comes across as biased?

 

[TenEightyOne]

I hope it's giving people a glimpse of the frustration we feel working in London. I long for a life where I don't have to be a quasi social worker but I'm not about to be one of those who gives up on these kids.

That's all awfully worthy but I do wonder if you should do some soul-searching to decide if you're the right person to be helping.

That aside; you continue to extrapolate from a small number of people in order to reflect a borough, from there you claim that you can give a representative overview of the city. From that you seem to be making large judgements about whole countries. That makes me a little uncomfortable - it's bad statistical work if nothing else. When you mention that 120 Bangladeshi marched without their wives one wonders if the marchers were precisely the kind of people whose wives would be mandated to stay at home? In your capacity as a quasi-social worker (whatever quasi-society is) you must have seen enough figures to understand how tiny samples like yours can show simply anything.

On the subject of which; do you have a link to the unemployment numbers by Country of Origin? I won't dispute that white Irish/British have a higher employment rate, I'm just interested in the full overview that you're sampling.

 

[KSaiyu]

Now my job is a training manager, responsible for training delivery across a region that includes the UK, Ireland, South Africa and the Middle East. I've never come across such a trend (that race/religion determines how feckless one is), but I only have a data set of half a million training records so what would I know.

Deleted message. I'm a bigot apparently.

That's all awfully worthy but I do wonder if you should do some soul-searching to decide if you're the right person to be helping

Oh ok. Care to take over?

That aside; you continue to extrapolate from a small number of people in order to reflect a borough, from there you claim that you can give a representative overview of the city. From that you seem to be making large judgements about whole countries. That makes me a little uncomfortable - it's bad statistical work if nothing else. When you mention that 120 Bangladeshi marched without their wives one wonders if the marchers were precisely the kind of people whose wives would be mandated to stay at home? In your capacity as a quasi-social worker (whatever quasi-society is) you must have seen enough figures to understand how tiny samples like yours can show simply anything.

On the subject of which; do you have a link to the unemployment numbers by Country of Origin? I won't dispute that white Irish/British have a higher employment rate, I'm just interested in the full overview that you're sampling.

Sure you've got the link I gave earlier showing by religion Islam has the highest amount of benefit claimants and I trust you can manipulate a spreadsheet and statistics (you guys seem hellbent on saying I'm extrapolating so I'll take it you have some authority) so here you go on Country of Origin (Spoiler, Pakistani/Bangladeshi is the highest unemployment percentage and those who are employed it is overwhelmingly lower end jobs)

EDIT: I hope anyone who has the chance checks out 'India's daughters' which highlights the woeful treatment of women by non-Muslims in India. This film was banned from showing in India and subject to legal proceedings over here. The reason I don't really talk about Indian attitudes to women is that it hasn't been imported here to the same degree as Islamic.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

@Beeblebrox237 can chip in too:

No. I don't negotiate with bigots.

 

[KSaiyu]

No. I don't negotiate with bigots.

Thank you for your contribution.

@TenEightyOne

Just one of the statistics from the spreadsheet since you liked a post calling me a bigot but failed to expand:

This is for 2013:
EMPLOYMENT RATE, 16-64 (Employed females aged 16-64 as a % of all females aged 16-64)
69.2%
59.0%
60.0%
63.0%
30.4%
50.0%
53.4%
51.9%
67.0%

Guess which one is Pakistani/Bangladeshi.

But all is not lost! There has been a general trend increasing from 1993s figure of 16.9% but it is my view that it will plateau around here or optimistically 40s considering it hovered around 24 for a long time and based on my time with the community. This is still shy of the other minorities by far.

Do you want to guess which minority group are the unhealthiest?? (Bangla I'm afraid)

Bangladeshis had the highest rates of illness in the UK, in 2001. Bangladeshi men were three times as likely to visit their doctor as men in the general population. Bangladeshis also had the highest rates of people with disabilities,[53] and were more likely to smoke than any other ethnic group, at a rate of 44% in 1999 in England. Smoking was very common amongst the men, but very few women smoked, perhaps due to cultural customs.[15][54] The average number of people living in each Bangladeshi household is 5,[55] larger than all other ethnic groups. Households which contained a single person were 9%; houses containing a married couple were 54%, pensioner households were 2%. Bangladeshis living in London were 40 times more likely to be living in cramped and poor housing types of housing than anyone else in the country. There were twice as many people per room as white households, with 43% living in homes with insufficient bedroom space. For these reasons many are moving out of Tower Hamlets to larger housing estates.[56] A third of Bangladeshi homes contain more than one family—64% of all overcrowded households in Tower Hamlets are Bangladeshi.[57] In England and Wales, only 37% of Bangladeshis owned households compared to 69% of the population, those with social rented tenure is 48%, the largest of which in Tower Hamlets (82%) and Camden (81%).

And let's add in the statistics of

Sector as proportion of ethnic group employment

Human health and social work activities 12.8% 26.3% 13.0% 17.2% 8.8% 9.3% 7.4% 17.9% 10.5% 24.7% 15.0% 17.7% 17.7% 13.3%

Yes, coming in dead last for contributing to health and social work is the Bangladeshis. A realist may say hang on, taking the most but giving the least - what's going on. A bigot would join the EDL and go on a **** bash. ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DIFFERENCE OR THIS IS THE LAST TIME I BOTHER REPLYING

People if you want to live in a welfare state, wake up to your demographics and stop calling each other bigots. You expect Nurses to put up with short staffing, budget cuts, sexual harassment, racism and physical abuse for £8000 less than a TFL Customer Service Assistant (hint, they don't! Our hospital has some of the worst retention rates in the NHS). And if we dare challenge the status quo you label us racists. Nurses around my area are getting tired of Asian families and the system is bound to collapse as long as we have an increasing population and increase usage of some demographics because of their challenging comorbidities. The last Muslim family enrolling her kids in the state school I help out in had EIGHT CHILDREN, 2 of whom are severely disabled due to cousin marriage.

Wake up to the realities of public service work or shut up because quite frankly I'm sick of your childishness.

@Beeblebrox237

You have the temerity to call me a bigot? I see you and raise you Neville Chamberlain.

Oh and we haven't created Palestine

You're right. We've created scores of them.

 

[Dotini]

...a post calling me a bigot...

No good deed goes unpunished. Now that you are are successfully identified as a bigot and your noble cause is lost, perhaps you can take a minute to confess your personal details such as who is paying you to do the work you do. I'd like to know if you own a car or aspire to own one, and of your education and tastes in literature and music. Perhaps it would be for the best if you left "public service" and confined yourself to more usual personal interests and profitable activities in the employ of private enterprise? We urge you to conform to society, and not try to change it.

 

[KSaiyu]

No good deed goes unpunished. Now that you are are successfully identified as a bigot and your noble cause is lost, perhaps you can take a minute to confess your personal details such as who is paying you to do the work you do. I'd like to know if you own a car or aspire to own one, and of your education and tastes in literature and music. Perhaps it would be for the best if you left "public service" and confined yourself to more usual personal interests and profitable activities in the employ of private enterprise? We urge you to conform to society, and not try to change it.

The sad thing is I'm abused as a Pakistani by white people if I grow a beard and a non-Muslim by some Muslims

I make 14k as a HCA which I keep up with my medical studies. I now consider it purely as charity work as my hospital is bleeding nurses every month.

A strong suggestion for those in the US: Don't create a healthcare model based on the NHS.

 

[Dotini]

The sad thing is I'm abused as a Pakistani by white people if I grow a beard and a non-Muslim by some Muslims

I make 14k as a HCA which I keep up with my medical studies. I now consider it purely as charity work as my hospital is bleeding nurses every month.

A strong suggestion for those in the US: Don't create a healthcare model based on the NHS.

Are you married, and do you have a close-knit family?

In the US, among my friends and family, we believe the best health care model is not getting sick, staying away from hospitals and vaccines, and rolling in the dirt to innoculate yourself from bugs.

 

[KSaiyu]

No not married. I left my Asian ex as she wouldn't introduce me to her family after 2 1/2 years because her dad was annoyed I couldn't get rid of the black half of me.

I know, you couldn't make my life up..

 

[Dotini]

No not married. I left my Asian ex as she wouldn't introduce me to her family after 2 1/2 years because her dad was annoyed I couldn't get rid of the black half of me.

I know, you couldn't make my life up..

It does sound like a difficult life. I hope you are enjoying safe sex and get to occasionally watch Game of Thrones.

 

[KSaiyu]

People have had a lot worse, but it makes me relatable. And patients, especially Muslim women love relatable healthcare professionals.

And being relatable means votes, and votes means power, and power means the Presidency.
(I watch House of Cards..)

EDIT: More on how Asian women are treated in their home countries -

A survey by a Banglaore NGO this week found 87 per cent of college students agreed that women should accept a certain degree of violence and 51 per cent believed they should focus on housework a child raising.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@KSaiyu, the smoking statistic is very interesting. Haven't a number of studies correlated smoker-percentage with long-term health issues and, thereby, high work absence and unemployment? Not all things "cultural" are as simple as a genetic predisposition for fecklessness.

I'd still like to see a full spread of the stats you're referencing for all reference groups. If somebody is four-times-more than "general" then it would be interesting to see what (or who) is sitting at the other extreme.

 

[KSaiyu]

@KSaiyu, the smoking statistic is very interesting. Haven't a number of studies correlated smoker-percentage with long-term health issues and, thereby, high work absence and unemployment? Not all things "cultural" are as simple as a genetic predisposition for fecklessness.

I'd still like to see a full spread of the stats you're referencing for all reference groups. If somebody is four-times-more than "general" then it would be interesting to see what (or who) is sitting at the other extreme.

All referenced in the article and you can see for yourself in the labour spreadsheets I posted 👍

The smoking is a vicious cycle - it is cultural, unemployment is high and health problems are off the charts (due to a small gene pool, Bengalis multiply fast but within their own families - it's why you can easily tell the difference between Bengali and Pakistani) which leads to smoking, which leads to more health problems...etc etc

My fear is when other people twig on to a rapidly growing group of people (unfortunately Muslims, since the case can be expanded to Somalis and Pakistanis to a lesser but still significant extent) who don't contribute nearly as much as what they take. People aren't as tolerant as you or I, the NHS WILL change over the next decade and racial tensions are already getting stronger. Britain seriously needs to wake up and take control.

 

[Scaff]

Thank you for your contribution.

@TenEightyOne

Just one of the statistics from the spreadsheet since you liked a post calling me a bigot but failed to expand:

This is for 2013:
EMPLOYMENT RATE, 16-64 (Employed females aged 16-64 as a % of all females aged 16-64)
69.2%
59.0%
60.0%
63.0%
30.4%
50.0%
53.4%
51.9%
67.0%

Guess which one is Pakistani/Bangladeshi.

But all is not lost! There has been a general trend increasing from 1993s figure of 16.9% but it is my view that it will plateau around here or optimistically 40s considering it hovered around 24 for a long time and based on my time with the community. This is still shy of the other minorities by far.

Do you want to guess which minority group are the unhealthiest?? (Bangla I'm afraid)



And let's add in the statistics of

Sector as proportion of ethnic group employment

Human health and social work activities 12.8% 26.3% 13.0% 17.2% 8.8% 9.3% 7.4% 17.9% 10.5% 24.7% 15.0% 17.7% 17.7% 13.3%

Yes, coming in dead last for contributing to health and social work is the Bangladeshis. A realist may say hang on, taking the most but giving the least - what's going on. A bigot would join the EDL and go on a **** bash. ACKNOWLEDGE THIS DIFFERENCE OR THIS IS THE LAST TIME I BOTHER REPLYING

People if you want to live in a welfare state, wake up to your demographics and stop calling each other bigots. You expect Nurses to put up with short staffing, budget cuts, sexual harassment, racism and physical abuse for £8000 less than a TFL Customer Service Assistant (hint, they don't! Our hospital has some of the worst retention rates in the NHS). And if we dare challenge the status quo you label us racists. Nurses around my area are getting tired of Asian families and the system is bound to collapse as long as we have an increasing population and increase usage of some demographics because of their challenging comorbidities. The last Muslim family enrolling her kids in the state school I help out in had EIGHT CHILDREN, 2 of whom are severely disabled due to cousin marriage.

Wake up to the realities of public service work or shut up because quite frankly I'm sick of your childishness.

@Beeblebrox237

You have the temerity to call me a bigot? I see you and raise you Neville Chamberlain.

And still the only factor you attribute it to is a persons race and religion?

I take it you are aware that the exact same argument of high unemployment (so low contribution) matched with large families, high welfare dependence and high rate of substance use (be it smoking, drink or drugs) has had many parallels within a wide range of social groups in the UK. And I'm not just talking about the dark distant past. It's occurred in many places and for many reasons, and no race, religion or culture is immune.

I can cite one such example from a town near me, up until 1983 Calne was a well respected market town in Wiltshire famous for it ham and pork products, then in 1983 the Harris factory closed and overnight 20% of the towns population of 10,000 were unemployed. Many people found themselves trapped in high levels of negative equity and homes were foreclosed on, the high street saw shops fail regularly as no one had any money to shop in them. Incidences of poverty, drug abuse rose.

In effect the closure of one business saw 20% of the population of a white, protestant town become a huge burden on Wiltshire's welfare system overnight and the town has still, over 30 years later, not fully recovered from it.

The simple reason why your posts do come across as containing elements of bigotry is that you seem to tie everything back to race and religion, but even that you do selectively. It comes across as Islam is the problem and if anyone cites similar issues from other faiths or social groups they are dismissed as not being as bad.

Now no one is saying that race and religion are not a factor in this, but they are not the only factor in this; and as far as both race and religion goes, both contain so much diversity within them that its slanderous to generalise in the way that you have been doing.

You're right. We've created scores of them.

Citation required as I'm not aware of a single area in which the Army have isolated and with which we regularly send in tanks to clear areas after receiving incoming rocket fire, let alone scores of them?

 

[PeterJB]

Calne is one of the most boring places I've ever been. There is genuinely nothing to do there.

 

[KSaiyu]

And still the only factor you attribute it to is a persons race and religion?

Yes sir, as evidenced by the statistics, anecdotal evidence, my extensive experience and, oh I dunno the opinions of the faith by some of the members of the communities themselves.

Now no one is saying that race and religion are not a factor in this, but they are not the only factor in this; and as far as both race and religion goes, both contain so much diversity within them that its slanderous to generalise in the way that you have been doing.

Someone has to if we want to move forward.

I take it you are aware that the exact same argument of high unemployment (so low contribution) matched with large families, high welfare dependence and high rate of substance use (be it smoking, drink or drugs) has had many parallels within a wide range of social groups in the UK. And I'm not just talking about the dark distant past. It's occurred in many places and for many reasons, and no race, religion or culture is immune.

Yet one is head and shoulders above the others.

I can cite one such example from a town near me, up until 1983 Calne was a well respected market town in Wiltshire famous for it ham and pork products, then in 1983 the Harris factory closed and overnight 20% of the towns population of 10,000 were unemployed. Many people found themselves trapped in high levels of negative equity and homes were foreclosed on, the high street saw shops fail regularly as no one had any money to shop in them. Incidences of poverty, drug abuse rose.

In effect the closure of one business saw 20% of the population of a white, protestant town become a huge burden on Wiltshire's welfare system overnight and the town has still, over 30 years later, not fully recovered from it.

My mum is from an Asian country and was actually homeless for some periods living in council housing. My ex's parents lived in council housing when they first came over. All the Bengalis I know (and I'll hazard a guess and say I personally know more than you) are still in council housing. How is it Indians, Sri Lankans and the Nepalese can move on from bad circumstances but Pakistanis/Bengalis can't?

The simple reason why your posts do come across as containing elements of bigotry is that you seem to tie everything back to race and religion, but even that you do selectively.

OK, selectively? I've given you nationwide statistics and you want to say I'm picking selectively? Really? I come to you with these statistics and concerns of muslims themselves and you still think I'm sounding like a bigot. So the Pakistanis and Bengalis that are concerned with Islamist infiltration, would you call them bigots against their own faith.. Would you call the Somalian who thanked my ex for the school she works in for "de-Islamising" her child a bigot?

It comes across as Islam is the problem and if anyone cites similar issues from other faiths or social groups they are dismissed as not being as bad.

Yeah and? Where are these similar issues that I'm ignoring? You're giving me random examples of poor economic/social mobility but these are isolated within the ethnic/religious context - they aren't endemic like they are with Islam.

Citation required as I'm not aware of a single area in which the Army have isolated and with which we regularly send in tanks to clear areas after receiving incoming rocket fire, let alone scores of them?

I've told you about the ghettos, I've given you videos about the ghettos and you want to continue holding your hands over your ears and pretending they don't exist?

----

I am only now on my break because the only Muslim (by religion they are the lowest represented nationally in the NHS - Christians are over-represented) we have for the entire ward is unmanageable and unfireable (she was investigated for corruption but has still been retained). Since she won't take orders on when to go on her break (or any orders really) and so I have to fit my break around her. If I really was a bigot I would take the evidence I have that would get her fired (she fraudulates medical notes), but I have sympathy because she is a victim of her religion (her arranged marriage broke down and so she is a single mum). You create a generation of people ill suited and scared of society at large and then wonder why they are unemployable, unmanageable and spiteful of the west. The clue is in the religion, it always was and always will be.

 

[TenEightyOne]

@TenEightyOne...since you liked a post calling me a bigot

Then to @Beeblebrox237

Wake up to the realities of public service work or shut up because quite frankly I'm sick of your childishness.

Then from you...

...a rapidly growing group of people (unfortunately Muslims, since the case can be expanded to Somalis and Pakistanis to a lesser but still significant extent) who don't contribute nearly as much as what they take.

You still don't see how much you're generalising based on a tiny sample based that genuinely seems (in my opinion) to then be stretched across your own prejudice?

Sure, there are samples where what you say is true. Sadly you're contenting yourself to look at non-professional of immigrants (without appearing to want to know why they immigrated or what their genuine predispositions are) and, from that, you're extrapolating wildly in a way that comes across (in my opinion) as bigoted.

Sorry dude, I'm just singing what I sees and all that.

How many of the public service professionals that you quasi-work with are of Muslim heritage, I wonder?

And still the only factor you attribute it to is a persons race and religion?

Yes sir, as evidenced by the statistics, anecdotal evidence, my extensive experience and, oh I dunno the opinions of the faith by some of the members of the communities themselves.

Oh pur-lease.

Stats, no. Anecdotal evidence, just no no no. Your extensive experience? It seems to be that I've seen scenarios/met people that you haven't... it seems that your experience is lacking.

And yes, some of those communities share your views. That doesn't make it right across the entire spectrum, of course.