Britain - The Official Thread

[Scaff]

Yes sir, as evidenced by the statistics, anecdotal evidence, my extensive experience and, oh I dunno the opinions of the faith by some of the members of the communities themselves.

Not a single piece of material you have provided shows that teh race or religion is the only factor involved in this.

Someone has to if we want to move forward.

A singular focus on one factor will move nothing forward

Yet one is head and shoulders above the others.

Correlation doesn't equal causaility

My mum is from an Asian country and was actually homeless for some periods living in council housing. My ex's parents lived in council housing when they first came over. All the Bengalis I know (and I'll hazard a guess and say I personally know more than you) are still in council housing. How is it Indians, Sri Lankans and the Nepalese can move on from bad circumstances but Pakistanis/Bengalis can't?

What all of them?

Odd I must let the ones at work know this.

OK, selectively? I've given you nationwide statistics and you want to say I'm picking selectively? Really? I come to you with these statistics and concerns of muslims themselves and you still think I'm sounding like a bigot. So the Pakistanis and Bengalis that are concerned with Islamist infiltration, would you call them bigots against their own faith.. Would you call the Somalian who thanked my ex for the school she works in for "de-Islamising" her child a bigot?

No I wouldn't call them bigots. Want to know why? They are almost certain to understand the their race and religion are not the sole factors involved in this.

Yeah and? Where are these similar issues that I'm ignoring? You're giving me random examples of poor economic/social mobility but these are isolated within the ethnic/religious context - they aren't endemic like they are with Islam.

Random examples?

The entirely if the Welsh mining industry in the '80's is a random example!

No I'm providing you with examples that show that race and religion is not the only factor, that you are ignoring that to focus only on race and religion is an indication of your own bias (or did 20% of Calne turn Muslim overnight and the mass unemployment was just an unrelated event)

I've told you about the ghettos, I've given you videos about the ghettos and you want to continue holding your hands over your ears and pretending they don't exist?

You have not shown a single example that would make any part of the UK a parallel with Palestine, not one.

I can give you one that's much closer. Belfast during the 'Troubles'. Army on the streets, regular bombing and shootings by both sides, a Police force seen as being the enemy, armed checkpoints and controlled movement of people and goods, sectarian murders on a regular basis by both sides, terrorist groups on both sides and a conflict about both religion and territory.

Now that's a parallel to Palestine, but I'm sure you will just brush it away as a random example.

I am only now on my break because the only Muslim (by religion they are the lowest represented nationally in the NHS - Christians are over-represented) we have for the entire ward is unmanageable and unfireable (she was investigated for corruption but has still been retained).

So you sat on the investigation board?

Since she won't take orders on when to go on her break (or any orders really) and so I have to fit my break around her. If I really was a bigot I would take the evidence I have that would get her fired (she fraudulates medical notes), but I have sympathy because she is a victim of her religion (her arranged marriage broke down and so she is a single mum).

If you have evidence that she is making fraudulent medical notes then quite frankly not reporting her is both idiotic, dangerous and illegal.

Reporting someone who is breaking the law isn't bigoted and sympathy will not go very far if you are correct and the end result is injury or death of a patient in care.

You create a generation of people ill suited and scared of society at large and then wonder why they are unemployable, unmanageable and spiteful of the west. The clue is in the religion, it always was and always will be.

No you create a generation of people ill suited and scared of society at large by focusing only on one factor and ignoring the rest, as you don't help them you just make them feel persecuted.

 

[Dotini]

Dear @KSaiyu, you have supposedly devoted yourself to public service. But your integrity, fairness, intelligence and effectiveness have all been rather successfully impeached. When I was a young lad, public service was held in high regard. But the assassination of the president, escalation of the war in Vietnam and Watergate all put an end to that infantile and idealistic notion for my generation. You must know you live in an ancient, decadent and corrupt world. Why do you struggle against it? My advice is to stop the search for truth and devote yourself exclusively to having a good time.

On the other hand, there is the notion that a single individual can make a difference, and that your belief in a better world is worth struggling for. That way is difficult, that way is lonely, and that way is dangerous. The choice is yours.

 

[KSaiyu]

Dear @KSaiyu, you have supposedly devoted yourself to public service. But your integrity, fairness, intelligence and effectiveness have all been rather successfully impeached. When I was a young lad, public service was held in high regard. But the assassination of the president, escalation of the war in Vietnam and Watergate all put an end to that infantile and idealistic notion for my generation. You must know you live in an ancient, decadent and corrupt world. Why do you struggle against it? My advice is to stop the search for truth and devote yourself exclusively to having a good time.

On the other hand, there is the notion that a single individual can make a difference, and that your belief in a better world is worth struggling for. That way is difficult, that way is lonely, and that way is dangerous. The choice is yours.

People ask why I help "them" so much (Yes guys, we are at that stage in Britain already). Blame it on fancying Asian girls since I was in primary school.

Then to @Beeblebrox237

Sure, there are samples where what you say is true. Sadly you're contenting yourself to look at non-professional of immigrants (without appearing to want to know why they immigrated or what their genuine predispositions are) and, from that, you're extrapolating wildly in a way that comes across (in my opinion) as bigoted.

Are you a labour councillor? Serious question.

For 2013, proportion by ethnicity in the field:

Professional, scientific and technical 6.9% 5.4% 8.0% 7.4% 5.6% 6.3% 3.5% * 6.7% 10.0% 4.4% 7.6% 6.5% 6.5% 6.9%

Sorry dude, I'm just singing what I sees and all that.

Definitely labour councillor

How many of the public service professionals that you quasi-work with are of Muslim heritage, I wonder?

We have a serious problem with Asian locums. Today I, a second year medical student had to correct a foreign born Registrar on a fluid prescription (if @FoolKiller is reading, I'm sure he'd back me up in saying giving 2 litres of crystalloid infusion to a Congestive Cardiac Failure patient on a 1.5 L restriction is not good medical practice. In fact it's downright malpractice territory). Our hospital has made the national headlines by fostering an "us and them" mentality - namely English trained medics vs others. Multiculturalism ftw!

Oh pur-lease.

Stats, no. Anecdotal evidence, just no no no. Your extensive experience? It seems to be that I've seen scenarios/met people that you haven't... it seems that your experience is lacking.

And yes, some of those communities share your views. That doesn't make it right across the entire spectrum, of course.

My experience is lacking? Arguing against statistics? Using anecdotal evidence (which is considerably less than mine) only as the basis of your argument?

OK, which labour councillor are you..

Not a single piece of material you have provided shows that teh race or religion is the only factor involved in this.

I can't give you conclusive proof. I can give you the evidence and you can make your own deductions.

A singular focus on one factor will move nothing forward.

Disagree. Think of it like cancer. Identify the primary source and work on the metastases.

Correlation doesn't equal causaility

Like I said, if you want conclusive proof you will be waiting for a long time, probably about the time when there's nowhere to house Bangladeshis (which you could say we are at - it's not uncommon to have 4 or more in a tiny bedroom).

But let's try comparing, since that's the first step to narrowing down the cause.

Would you agree that Blacks had a pretty rough time in Britain since coming here roughly the same time as the Bengalis? Same housing situations, same employment problems, probably an even higher incidence of gang violence. Why is it the statistics show a greater proportion of Blacks "made it" in Britain in comparison? What is your educated guess?

What all of them?

Arguing statistics? It's called proportion, it's not "all or none".

No I wouldn't call them bigots. Want to know why? They are almost certain to understand the their race and religion are not the sole factors involved in this.

Erm no, ask them. Same conclusions as me. Oh they might blame the West and colonialism, but that's common to most ethnic minorities in Britain

Random examples?

The entirely if the Welsh mining industry in the '80's is a random example!

Confident I found the causative factor here.

No I'm providing you with examples that show that race and religion is not the only factor, that you are ignoring that to focus only on race and religion is an indication of your own bias (or did 20% of Calne turn Muslim overnight and the mass unemployment was just an unrelated event)

Found this one too:

then in 1983 the Harris factory closed and overnight 20% of the towns population of 10,000 were unemployed

You have not shown a single example that would make any part of the UK a parallel with Palestine, not one.

I can give you one that's much closer. Belfast during the 'Troubles'. Army on the streets, regular bombing and shootings by both sides, a Police force seen as being the enemy, armed checkpoints and controlled movement of people and goods, sectarian murders on a regular basis by both sides, terrorist groups on both sides and a conflict about both religion and territory.

Now that's a parallel to Palestine, but I'm sure you will just brush it away as a random example.

Glad you brought that up, because that is exactly what is starting in these ghettos. At the moment it is limited to random acts of violence, with terrorists leaving for Syria instead of hitting home targets. We are stopping plotted terror attacks before they happen. Let me bring up again, the Poppy Day plotters were arrested on the same road as my sister!

So you sat on the investigation board?


If you have evidence that she is making fraudulent medical notes then quite frankly not reporting her is both idiotic, dangerous and illegal.

Reporting someone who is breaking the law isn't bigoted and sympathy will not go very far if you are correct and the end result is injury or death of a patient in care.

Harsh but fair. Sucks we would go from 1 Muslim on the ward to Zero. You see my frustration in how so many are unemployable because of the religion (well you probably won't, you'll blame it on something else).

No you create a generation of people ill suited and scared of society at large by focusing only on one factor and ignoring the rest, as you don't help them you just make them feel persecuted.

We tried your way for decades and ignored the elephant in the room and ended up in this situation. I'd rather try focusing on the glaringly obvious factor before it's too late.


-----

Wait you guys aren't thinking I'm talking about the majority of Muslims when I say this are you? There's a differentiation to be made between "significant proportion" and "majority" that I thought wouldn't need stating.

 

[Dotini]

I think it would be fun to revisit these Common Purpose people.

http://www.cpexposed.com/latest-news/what-has-happened-common-purpose
In the NHS we have witnessed the deliberate neglect and deaths of thousands of patients. The NHS management responsible under Sir David Nicholson shows no remorse or guilt, and certainly no one has resigned. Why should the big man? he was only carrying out his masters orders, and David Cameron MP has backed him to the hilt. The implication is that the NHS is now controlled by low-empathy and 're-framed' individuals who see the old and seriously sick as detrimental to high profits or the efficient working of the State. Nazi Germany anyone?

The core of the rot in the NHS is the central Common Purpose Working Group.

 

[Scaff]

People ask why I help "them" so much (Yes guys, we are at that stage in Britain already).

No we are not at the us and them stage in this country, you may be (a trait you worryingly share with the far right) but do not project that onto me or the country as a whole.

I can't give you conclusive proof. I can give you the evidence and you can make your own deductions.

The evidence doesn't support your hypothesis.

Disagree. Think of it like cancer. Identify the primary source and work on the metastases.

Yet you haven't proven the cause, your operating on someone without even knowing its cancer.

Like I said, if you want conclusive proof you will be waiting for a long time, probably about the time when there's nowhere to house Bangladeshis (which you could say we are at - it's not uncommon to have 4 or more in a tiny bedroom).

But let's try comparing, since that's the first step to narrowing down the cause.

Would you agree that Blacks had a pretty rough time in Britain since coming here roughly the same time as the Bengalis? Same housing situations, same employment problems, probably an even higher incidence of gang violence. Why is it the statistics show a greater proportion of Blacks "made it" in Britain in comparison? What is your educated guess?

Roughly the same time?

The Bengalis first arrived in small numbers in the 17th century (mainly as sailors), while the first recorded black settlers can be traced back to the Roman occupation. However if we look at established communities the first Bengali ones were in the 1970's, while the first black ones were after the first world war. That would be a difference of 50 years, enough for second to third generations to be in place.

As such its not quite as directly comparable as you would like to imply.

Arguing statistics? It's called proportion, it's not "all or none".

Odd because that's exactly how you present your argument.

Bangladeshis are the problem, Muslims are the problem, Islam is the problem. That's your approach, not mine, you have not presented thsi as anything but an 'all or none' argument.

Erm no, ask them. Same conclusions as me. Oh they might blame the West and colonialism, but that's common to most ethnic minorities in Britain

So all these Muslims think that Islam is the problem?

Not a single one of them highlight socio-economic factors or the far right attacks over the 70's and 80's driving communities to be insular with the problems that will then present regardless of whom the group in question is?

Neither of those (or other) factors could possible be considered by members of these communities?

Are you sure that's not actually you projecting?

Confident I found the causative factor here.

Found this one too:

Well done way to miss the point. So socio-economic factors can't be a factor in issues within the Muslim communities?

Glad you brought that up, because that is exactly what is starting in these ghettos. At the moment it is limited to random acts of violence, with terrorists leaving for Syria instead of hitting home targets. We are stopping plotted terror attacks before they happen. Let me bring up again, the Poppy Day plotters were arrested on the same road as my sister!

Its is nothing at all like that, its not currently even close.

Harsh but fair. Sucks we would go from 1 Muslim on the ward to Zero. You see my frustration in how so many are unemployable because of the religion (well you probably won't, you'll blame it on something else).

How many exactly would that be?

We tried your way for decades and ignored the elephant in the room and ended up in this situation. I'd rather try focusing on the glaringly obvious factor before it's too late.

And what is my way?

Or are you making those assumptions again.

Wait you guys aren't thinking I'm talking about the majority of Muslims when I say this are you? There's a differentiation to be made between "significant proportion" and "majority" that I thought wouldn't need stating.

Well given that you have been asked this a number of times and you have either ignored the question or been quite happy to state that you consider Islam to be the only factor you can hardly blame people for thinking in that way.

We can only work with the commentary you use and the manner in which you answer the questions, reading minds doesn't even come as a moderation perk.

 

[KSaiyu]

Christ I can't do it I really can't anymore. I'm being told what I'm seeing is a lie. Since when did gtp become the nhs.

I think I'll join the other f1s in Australia, thanks for paying for my medical education Britain

For what it's worth I'll end by exposing myself:

Blacks sort out your violence so we don't see so many kids in a and e and whites treat your elderly better before you cripple the nhs with geriatric related social care issues. Sikhs sort out your drinking. No I don't have conclusive proof. Yes that would probably be the best way to fix the nhs.

EDIT: Ohh the other time I worked with Asian fmg (foreign medical graduate) doctors today, one wrote medical notes in the wrong section, and the other left a patient trying to provide a sputum sample with a non productive cough. This problem isn't limited to the Asian fmgs - on my induction a east European doctor thought the left side of the chest was the right.

Do you want to know how many times I have corrected British trained doctors throughout my time at the hospital (and this includes all races that have gone through British medical schools, although I did question why a Muslim doctor was concerned about fluid buildup showing up on a bladder scanner in a patient with ascites once)? Want to guess..

 

[Dotini]

Yes! Common Purpose wins again! [fistpump]

 

[KSaiyu]

If you want a real idea of the nhs and the sometimes tribal nature of it I'd suggest hospital babylon (written by anonymous doctors) or bedside stories by foxton.

Sadly the nhs is running out of time

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...dvocates-boarding-warns-Armageddon-wards.html

 

[MatskiMonk]

Well, the Daily Mail has spoken.

Time to cancel the NHS, I'll be fine, Private is all paid for me.

Also, anyone earning under 30k isn't contributing to the solution, just the problem

 

[KSaiyu]

That is the royal college of emergency medicine. Basically the authority for a and e doctors. One of the specialties most under threat is emergency medicine - 80% of ED doctors in Australia are English (note quite a lot will be temporary workers and return after a year or two out there)

 

[TenEightyOne]

Christ I can't do it I really can't anymore. I'm being told what I'm seeing is a lie. Since when did gtp become the nhs.

Invoking the power of sky-daddy isn't going to do much good.

I questioned your "extensive experience" as it didn't equate to my own experiences as a whole and thereby seemed less extensive than you believe.

As far as I can see GTP has never supported posts that take a small (tiny) sphere of experience and seek to extrapolate the conclusions within as fact across entire subject areas - which is what you're doing.

 

[KSaiyu]

Extensive experience with the Somali, Bengali and Pakistani communities of east, north west and west London and slough. This is from unemployed to consultant-at-a-teaching-hospital level.

Could you tell me the unique problems faced by the deaf Muslim community? Or the special measures required for a Somali nurse during Ramadan?

EDIT: If anyone's interested in how politicians obsession with globalisation has changed our landscape, I recommend "the British dream". Your labour MPs had bigger things to worry about than their constituents I'm afraid.

I guess you guys might want to argue against the Home Office next

Last night details emerged of another example of alleged “entryism”. The Sunday Telegraph can disclose that an extremist who has called for the killing of British troops, Azad Ali, was joined in Parliament by the Labour MPs Yasmin Qureshi, Andy Slaughter and Gerald Kaufman and Sayeeda Warsi, the former Tory communities minister, to launch a “Muslim manifesto” for the general election.

The manifesto, by Mr Ali’s group, Mend, promotes the Islamist agenda of Muslim grievance and victimhood and includes demonstrable lies, such as a claim that the killing of Drummer Lee Rigby led to the murder of a Muslim man, Mohammed Saleem, in Birmingham.

Mr Saleem was actually killed three weeks before the Rigby attack. Mend is the new name for a group, Iengage, which was removed as administrative support to the all-party parliamentary group on Islamophobia for its links to extremism

 

[TenEightyOne]

Extensive experience with the Somali, Bengali and Pakistani communities of east, north west and west London and slough. This is from unemployed to consultant-at-a-teaching-hospital level.

So a very small minority in the actual world. You should have qualified that sooner.

Could you tell me the unique problems faced by the deaf Muslim community?

I imagine they're similar to the problems faced by members of the Jewish community - services/readings that are rarely signed or interpreted for the deaf as there's no native equivalent sign language. What are the unique problems? I'm interested to know.

I guess you guys might want to argue against the Home Office next

The Telegraph isn't the Home Office however much it would like to be - it's a right-wing broadsheet that shares the isolationist stance of the current government.

The article describes attempts to stop radicalisation of young people and moves that are being made to stem extremism (a tide, we're told). Why would you want us to argue against that seemingly-sensible policy?

Do you know how you get extremism in any given set? By having a large average that isn't extreme. Otherwise it isn't extremism. It's, erm, well... normality.

 

[Beeblebrox237]

@Beeblebrox237

You have the temerity to call me a bigot?

Blacks sort out your violence

Yes, yes I do.

 

[KSaiyu]

So a very small minority in the actual world. You should have qualified that sooner.

Huh? I have to mingle in the Birmingham, Bradford and Leicester ghettos to experience the real world. Better yet take a jolly to Pakistan and Bangladesh? Are you crazy?

I imagine they're similar to the problems faced by members of the Jewish community - services/readings that are rarely signed or interpreted for the deaf as there's no native equivalent sign language. What are the unique problems? I'm interested to know.

Close. They are prone to being shunned by the community as 'inferior' and are as such routinely ostracized to the point of being outcasts. I forgot the charity that was widening access to texts for the deaf community but it's a UK one. Here is an example of treatment of deaf muslims.

The Telegraph isn't the Home Office however much it would like to be - it's a right-wing broadsheet that shares the isolationist stance of the current government.

The article describes attempts to stop radicalisation of young people and moves that are being made to stem extremism (a tide, we're told). Why would you want us to argue against that seemingly-sensible policy?

It seems like you had a thing for arguing against statistics.

Do you know how you get extremism in any given set? By having a large average that isn't extreme. Otherwise it isn't extremism. It's, erm, well... normality.

What good is a large average who aren't extreme if they don't stop the spread of extremism. Can you tell me the numbers for the last Muslim organised march against ISIS. Can you compare these numbers to the last anti-war march against the Palestinian conflict.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Huh? I have to mingle in the Birmingham, Bradford and Leicester ghettos to experience the real world. Better yet take a jolly to Pakistan and Bangladesh? Are you crazy?

I think your fear is incorrect and unnatural.

Close. They are prone to being shunned by the community as 'inferior' and are as such routinely ostracized to the point of being outcasts. I forgot the charity that was widening access to texts for the deaf community but it's a UK one. Here is an example of treatment of deaf muslims.

In the cultures you compare Isla'am against (as I see it those are "white cultures") that's a situation that's only improved in very recent years. Bullying of the "abnormal" is sadly a whole-human-race condition.

It seems like you had a thing for arguing against statistics.

There were no statistics, just a description of 720 jihadists who may have returned to the UK. Given that the number is so accurate (we're led to believe) then presumably we know who/where they are. It isn't news that jihadists or extremists exist, surely?

What good is a large average who aren't extreme if they don't stop the spread of extremism.

Absolutely none. What a good job that the sensible members of any community (often in the majority) are as aware of extremism and the damage that it causes as we are. Or do you have evidence otherwise. Marching numbers don't really cut it - a failure to march certainly isn't indicative of failure to act.

 

[KSaiyu]

Absolutely none. What a good job that the sensible members of any community (often in the majority) are as aware of extremism and the damage that it causes as we are. Or do you have evidence otherwise. Marching numbers don't really cut it - a failure to march certainly isn't indicative of failure to act.

Gonna need to show me examples of action then please.

In the cultures you compare Isla'am against (as I see it those are "white cultures") that's a situation that's only improved in very recent years. Bullying of the "abnormal" is sadly a whole-human-race condition.

Wait I'm going to hold you to this. Complete shunning in the community was only abolished recently? In Britain?

*I think it's fair to warn you that the Muslim who spoke for the charity freely admitted muslims were behind in this regard.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Gonna need to show me examples of action then please.

Families Matter, A Muslim Answers People Like You, More Pesky Average Moderates.

Guess what? There are plenty of average, hard-working, educated, sensible moderate Muslims. They don't feature in the news a lot... but be scared, they're amongst us and you may not even know who they are. They're not on marches, they're not picketing, they're working normally and sensibly to educate.

Complete shunning in the community was only abolished recently? In Britain?

I don't recall any abolition but it's been my experience in education that the attitudes of students, staff and the wider communities have largely become much more inclusive.

I think it's fair to warn you that the Muslim who spoke for the charity freely admitted muslims were behind in this regard.

I didn't disagree, I think you'll agree that it's something that should change. In fact, it's something that could continue change for the better in many communities My worry is that you imply that Those Muslamic Types are somehow either incapable of change or genetically predisposed to have no wish to include Defectives.

My other worry is that there are people in the system who display the kind of mad, self-assured predisposition to compartmentalisation that (in my opinion) you do. That simply fosters the Self Fulfilling Prophecy to a degree that doesn't help anybody.

 

[KSaiyu]

Families Matter, A Muslim Answers People Like You, More Pesky Average Moderates.

Guess what? There are plenty of average, hard-working, educated, sensible moderate Muslims. They don't feature in the news a lot... but be scared, they're amongst us and you may not even know who they are. They're not on marches, they're not picketing, they're working normally and sensibly to educate.

The first is to stop their children going over there because they are scared of losing them, it's not a stand against ISIS but a protective measure.
The second is showing groups of Muslims protesting but aren't really significant considering our sizeable Muslim population (i.e. they are too small). The third is showing Australian imams involvement in identifying those at risk but doesn't specify what proportion of imams this is.

Simple question. Why can parts of London be brought to a standstill over Palestine (which we have no involvement in) but nothing close happen over the months of ISIS atrocities against UK citizens?

I don't recall any abolition but it's been my experience in education that the attitudes of students, staff and the wider communities have largely become much more inclusive.

Mine too, so what's Islam's problem with the rest of society and why is it decades behind.

I didn't disagree, I think you'll agree that it's something that should change. In fact, it's something that could continue change for the better in many communities My worry is that you imply that Those Muslamic Types are somehow either incapable of change or genetically predisposed to have no wish to include Defectives.

My other worry is that there are people in the system who display the kind of mad, self-assured predisposition to compartmentalisation that (in my opinion) you do. That simply fosters the Self Fulfilling Prophecy to a degree that doesn't help anybody.

No you just identify the communities more at risk. Hence why we don't tell the gender to Asian families at prenatal scans so they don't pop off to the abortion clinic after finding the devastating news that the mother is carrying a girl.

---------

It seems a clarification is needed once again:

We aren't under threat from Islam itself. Rather we, and this includes the British muslim community are under threat from Islamists

 

[TenEightyOne]

No you just identify the communities more at risk. Hence why we don't tell the gender to Asian families at prenatal scans so they don't pop off to the abortion clinic after finding the devastating news that the mother is carrying a girl.

And thereby you continue to demonstrate that you believe marginalisation is preferable to education. That's a sad state of affairs.

 

[Dotini]

And thereby you continue to demonstrate that you believe marginalisation is preferable to education. That's a sad state of affairs.

I see a key and very debatable difference in morality and ethics.

@KSaiyu thinks that the consequences of actions determine their rightness, because female fetuses will become selectively aborted if the truth of gender is told.

@TenEightyOne thinks that motivations determine the rightness of actions, despite any consequences. So he would tell the truth.

Me, I like the idea of a beautiful, useful or necessary lie justified in preference to an ugly truth.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I see a key and very debatable difference in morality and ethics.

@KSaiyu thinks that the consequences of actions determine their rightness, because female fetuses will become selectively aborted if the truth of gender is told.

@TenEightyOne thinks that motivations determine the rightness of actions, despite any consequences. So he would tell the truth.

Me, I like the idea of a beautiful, useful or necessary lie justified in preference to an ugly truth.

This probably goes to another topic but... if parents decide that they are not going to keep their co-pro-created fetus alive then that's their choice For a third party to withhold information from them because of their own beliefs about the parents' cultural/ethnic predispositions is wrong. A fetus is a fetus, not a person.

 

[Dotini]

This probably goes to another topic but... if parents decide that they are not going to keep their co-pro-created fetus alive then that's their choice For a third party to withhold information from them because of their own beliefs about the parents' cultural/ethnic predispositions is wrong. A fetus is a fetus, not a person.

But the consequences of a population aborting females is a generation of alienated, angry, unattached young men! Do you want that on your head?

 

[TenEightyOne]

But the consequences of a population aborting females is a generation of alienated, angry, unattached young men! Do you want that on your head?

I don't go in the GT6 drag forums any more so I'm not really exposed to it.

 

[Dotini]

I don't go in the GT6 drag forums any more so I'm not really exposed to it.

I love it when a liberal carries his guilt so well.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I love it when a liberal carries his guilt so well.

I like to think that the British way is to support one's neighbour whilst minding one's own business. It's not up to us to impose our views onto other people.

 

[KSaiyu]

This probably goes to another topic but... if parents decide that they are not going to keep their co-pro-created fetus alive then that's their choice For a third party to withhold information from them because of their own beliefs about the parents' cultural/ethnic predispositions is wrong. A fetus is a fetus, not a person.

Nice idea in theory, let's dig a little deeper shall we:

1) This is illegal. It is in contravention of the Abortion Act and would jeopardize any Nurse or Doctor's licence if they were found to abort a foetus because of the parent's wish for a male baby.
2) Spare a thought for the doctor who probably enters medicine with the same ideology as most of us. At the end of the day this is a caring profession. Yes, a minority of doctors want to go into obstetrics with the intention to treat women at their most vulnerable. However what about the abortion specialist who ends up in a clinic in such a community? Their role transforms from carer to eugenicist overnight, and that's pretty hard to come to terms with.
3) As Dotini eloquently put it, you create a community of men with said attributes.
4) Let's look at this community. OK you've let them discriminate against females before they've even been born.
- What happens when the girl is raped by her cousin because "that's their culture"?
- What happens when the girl's clitoris is sliced off on a "family holiday" to Somalia?
- What happens when the adolescent girl is taught at home because they "don't need education"?
- What happens when the young woman is forced into a marriage to her cousin she has never met?
- What happens when she is beaten by the alcoholic husband, and forced to care for her in-laws elderly relations?

I like to think that the British way is to support one's neighbour whilst minding one's own business. It's not up to us to impose our views onto other people.

I like to think we recognise the underdog and stick up for them, not some liberal "all cultures need to be respected" mantra.

 

[Submerged]

Huh? I have to mingle in the Birmingham, Bradford and Leicester ghettos to experience the real world. Better yet take a jolly to Pakistan and Bangladesh? Are you crazy?

Leicester has ghettos?

You've never actually been there, have you?

Personally, since moving out of the UK, I've realised that the main issue is that people just talk to people to re-affirm their suspicions and bias, but never go out to find out if their bias is correct or not. They fail to go out to see what is different, whether whatever they see is confirming or refuting their bias.

So, they just get more hardcore when they shouldn't do.

Being in a communist country that is currently going through a more militaristic stage than the last 20 years, it has made me realise that on the ground, everyone just wants to get by. They don't want to be dragged down onto us and them, if it doesn't make them earn money.

But if you prevent them from earning money, they'll immediately go straight to us and them and not have any real reason, other than "we aren't earning enough money, time to complain and potentially murder people!"

Humanity is such a violent and cruel race.

 

[KSaiyu]

Leicester has ghettos?

You've never actually been there, have you?

Hence my "I will have to mingle". I have only been to the London ones, Birmingham I have passed by as family is there (I know they exist) and Bradford is well known to practically everyone (Israeli-free zone anyone?). Leicester I made an educated guess based on trends. This celebrity's experience seems to confirm, although yes I know less about this "ghetto" than all the others I quoted.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...c-area-Leicester-frightened-says-TV-chef.html

(please see the comments for other anecdotes from people visiting/living in the area)

But if you prevent them from earning money, they'll immediately go straight to us and them and not have any real reason, other than "we aren't earning enough money, time to complain and potentially murder people!"

I'll stop you there and say no, just no. Later on I will go into my School of Medicines Affirmitive Action policy and how it is backfiring at the moment but like I brought up before other minorities faced just the same if not worse adversity (I have a black parent and an Asian). Well meaning people who baby communities and blame their problems on society at large are a part of the problem unfortunately. I will expand.

 

[TenEightyOne]

1) This is illegal. It is in contravention of the Abortion Act and would jeopardize any Nurse or Doctor's licence if they were found to abort a foetus because of the parent's wish for a male baby.

Yes. The duty of care is with the abortion service, not with the staff performing the pre-natal scan. Otherwise you remove access to services based on your bias.

2) Spare a thought for the doctor who probably enters medicine with the same ideology as most of us. At the end of the day this is a caring profession. Yes, a minority of doctors want to go into obstetrics with the intention to treat women at their most vulnerable. However what about the abortion specialist who ends up in a clinic in such a community? Their role transforms from carer to eugenicist overnight, and that's pretty hard to come to terms with.

Education, not enforcement. And no doctor has to partake in abortion services if they don't wish to.

3) As Dotini eloquently put it, you create a community of men with said attributes.

Bull ****. That's perfectly capable of happening in any case.

4) Let's look at this community. OK you've let them discriminate against females before they've even been born.
- What happens when the girl is raped by her cousin because "that's their culture"?
- What happens when the girl's clitoris is sliced off on a "family holiday" to Somalia?
- What happens when the adolescent girl is taught at home because they "don't need education"?
- What happens when the young woman is forced into a marriage to her cousin she has never met?
- What happens when she is beaten by the alcoholic husband, and forced to care for her in-laws elderly relations?

So it's okay to discriminate against the parents before they've even had chance to have their baby?

All the things you describe can be genuine problems but, once again, you seem to think that you speak for all of a particular culture in all cases and, more worryingly, that only those cultures are capable of the majority of the actions. You really think that the answer to FGM is to only have male babies? You need longer in your education, in my opinion, that's a mad standpoint.

"I will have to mingle".

Oh, the horror. Do make sure that Your Man washes your feet as you leave.

This celebrity's experience seems to confirm, although yes I know less about this "ghetto" than all the others I quoted.

Do you know either who she is or what the paper is? That's one very-upper-class, Finished elderly lady claiming that she was in "a ghetto". I wonder what her stance on multiculturalism is?

Let's see, right in your link she says she was;

surprised any of the people who might object could read what I wrote as it is written in English

You're clutching at straws now.