Britain - The Official Thread

[UKMikey]

The best athlete this country has produced in a life time wins his 5th world title in F1

Do you really think he's a better athlete than a triple World Championship, double gold medal and Tour de France winning cyclist?

I'm not sure how Hamilton counts as an athlete but it's kind of irrelevant since BBC Sports Personality Of The Year isn't an athletics award. I'm sure he'll be considered for future awards though.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm not sure how Hamilton counts as an athlete but it's kind of irrelevant since BBC Sports Personality Of The Year isn't an athletics award. I'm sure he'll be considered for future awards though.

Did Murray Walker ever win?

 

[Lizard]

Did Murray Walker ever win?

Has Murray Walker ever participated in a professional sport? He just talked about it from the side, granted he is still a legend though.

 

[baldgye]

I'm not sure how Hamilton counts as an athlete...

He competes in a sport?

 

[Liquid]

The name Sports "Personality" has long been a misnomer. Don't let that fool you; it's basically Sports Performer and the acronym still works.

 

[UKMikey]

An athlete (also sportsman or sportswoman) is a person who competes in one or more sports that involve physical strength, speed or endurance. The application of the term to those who participate in other activities, such as horse riding or driving, is somewhat controversial.

I should know better than to doubt the word of a third year biomed student though. Maybe all those hours I spent playing Forza and GT count as physical exercise now.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I've heard plenty of people have issue with a motorsport driver winning it as the performance of the car plays a more significant role in success when compared to other sports - which is a reasonable point.

 

[baldgye]

I should know better than to doubt the word of a third year biomed student though. Maybe all those hours I spent playing Forza and GT count as physical exercise now.

???

I’m lost, though I didn’t think the part of my hot take that would generate the most comments would be labelling Hamilton an althele

 

[Famine]

I've heard plenty of people have issue with a motorsport driver winning it as the performance of the car plays a more significant role in success when compared to other sports - which is a reasonable point.

And yet Moss, Stewart, Mansell (twice), Hill (twice) and Hamilton (despite being black) have all won it. And John Surtees for his motorbike world championship. And New Zealander speedway rider Barry Briggs has come second twice. Jim Clark, Graham Hill, James Hunt and Jenson Button all scored at least one second place, with Colin McRae and Barry Sheene managing a best of third.

In fact with 21 podium finishes, motorsport is joint second with football (and beats it 8 wins to 5).


Incidentally, apropos of black, there's been two black winners since the previous Welsh winner, and three Welsh winners since the last female winner. In fact since the last female winner (Zara Phillips, 2006), there's been six female (four of which were Jessica Ennis-Hill), four Welsh (one of which was Ryan Giggs... somehow) and ten black or mixed-race (four Hamilton, four Ennis-Hill, two Mo Farah) podium finisher.

The last white, male, English winner was Bradley Wiggins in 2012, and only five white, male, English winners have been on the podium since. Prior to that, the last one was Andrew Flintoff in 2005!

 

[baldgye]

And yet Moss, Stewart, Mansell (twice), Hill (twice) and Hamilton (despite being black) have all won it. And John Surtees for his motorbike world championship. And New Zealander speedway rider Barry Briggs has come second twice. Jim Clark, Graham Hill, James Hunt and Jenson Button all scored at least one second place, with Colin McRae and Barry Sheene managing a best of third.

In fact with 21 podium finishes, motorsport is joint second with football (and beats it 8 wins to 5).


Incidentally, apropos of black, there's been two black winners since the previous Welsh winner, and three Welsh winners since the last female winner. In fact since the last female winner (Zara Phillips, 2006), there's been six female (four of which were Jessica Ennis-Hill), four Welsh (one of which was Ryan Giggs... somehow) and ten black or mixed-race (four Hamilton, four Ennis-Hill, two Mo Farah) podium finisher.

The last white, male, English winner was Bradley Wiggins in 2012, and only five white, male, English winners have been on the podium since. Prior to that, the last one was Andrew Flintoff in 2005!

More likely he'd have won if he had a personality...

I guess I should clarify my hot take. First off, he must have a personality to have won it twice.

That said, Lewis gets ridiculous amounts of **** from within the F1 and outside the F1 community and when ever I've ever drilled down into why people don't like him. 9 times out of ten the only reason I get is that he's wealthy, black and isn't afraid of showing it off. I think that there is a wider issue and that Lewis suffers similarly to other black athletes in the UK.
This season in F1 was a big one, the fight for 5 world championships, something only ever achieved twice in the history in the sport, both by people largely regarded as the best the sport has seen. But unlike Fangio and Schumy he had another 4x champion to fight off in a car that was equally as strong (all be it at different tracks). Not only did he manage to win the title, but he displayed composure and skill the like of which we haven't seen in a while, his Singapore pole lap was one of the best pieces of driving I've ever seen.
So to summarise, personally I feel that Lewis would generally (in this country the UK) get more recognition and less hate if he was white.

But that's just my opinion, I understand that it's not scientific or researched in any meaningful way. But that's kinda what makes it a hot-take?

 

[mustafur]

Nearly every top driver is going to have their haters, remember when Vettel was winning every race, it was just as bad especially with the crowds booing him when he was collecting trophies.

 

[Famine]

I guess I should clarify my hot take. First off, he must have a personality to have won it twice.

He's won it once, in 2014.

So has Steve Davis, at the peak of his snooker career. That pretty much summarises the "personality" part of SPOTY. As does the fact that Andy Murray has won it three times...

That said, Lewis gets ridiculous amounts of **** from within the F1 and outside the F1 community and when ever I've ever drilled down into why people don't like him. 9 times out of ten the only reason I get is that he's wealthy, black and isn't afraid of showing it off. I think that there is a wider issue and that Lewis suffers similarly to other black athletes in the UK.
...
So to summarise, personally I feel that Lewis would generally (in this country the UK) get more recognition and less hate if he was white.

It's more the fact that he acts like an absolute ****. He seems to focus on making himself as unlikeable as possible, so that people don't like him, so he can say people don't like him and he's the bad boy, and act like he's fighting against the tide of public opinion.

In the last ten days alone he's started preaching veganism on Instagram with pictures of dead animals and, unlike pretty much everyone else in the whole rest of ever, turned up to the FIA Prize Giving wearing whatever the hell he wanted (again) rather than following the dress code. Spot the Lewis:

​

Of course you can't kick out the five-time F1 world champion any more than you can the four-time one when he wore rubber trousers and a sequined... cardigan (?) last year. Yes, you can say "Well, he's being himself and not following the crowd" and possibly yatter on about conformity and traditions meaning to be broken, but his whole schtick is Brand Hamilton. He can't even be at an event honoring 50 other people without making it all about him.

During the SPOTY broadcast, he described himself as having coming out of "the slums". That's "the slums". Of Stevenage. Amazing.

I don't really like or dislike him. I've been in a room with him, and he didn't come across as particularly nice or particularly unpleasant. He had a make-up attendant with him (she wore a Batman-style utility belt with makeup supplies in it) to make sure he looked just right on camera at all times, and swigged from a Lewis Hamilton Monster can, but then he also seemed relatively friendly in his interactions with the other people there.


As for "black athletes" getting specific stick in the UK, it's nonsense. Raheem Sterling gets absolutely reamed by the UK press (hence my comment before the World Cup) in an obscene manner, for no good reason that I can see. It's like all the papers decided that having a good season for Liverpool, asking for more money and then going to Manchester City on a huge salary instead was like wiping his penis across the Queen's chest, and just put a target on him - he can't do anything right, even when he does.

By comparison, what do his black England World Cup team-mates Marcus Rashford, Jesse Lingard, Fabian Delph and Danny Rose get? Dele Alli gets a bit of stick from time to time, as does Ashley Young, but the very white John Stones gets more. Loftus-Cheek and Alexander-Arnold are practically heralded as the next generation (quite rightly). Ex-England player Ashley Cole got a lot of stick too, but I reckon he shares Sterling's characteristic of wanting more money and transferring to a fashionable-to-dislike, oil-funded, talent sink team instead.

Saying Sterling and Hamilton get stick from the press because they're black is a cop-out. More of a cop-out is suggesting that the people who don't like them don't have any better reason than because they're black or because the press don't like them.

 

[baldgye]

He's won it once, in 2014.

My mistake, I thought he'd won it when he got his first title too.

In the last ten days alone he's started preaching veganism on Instagram

He's done that for a year or so now, only it's the winter break again (so he posts that content more often?). During this season he's also made posts about the enviroment and then had the gall to post a video of him and his mates cleaning up a beach! The Horror!

turned up to the FIA Prize Giving wearing whatever the hell he wanted (again) rather than following the dress code.

The guy in the white tux? Oh no I've got it the guy in the gold jacket!?

He can't even be at an event honoring 50 other people without making it all about him.

Kimi was ****faced and acted like a hooligan for almost the entire event. Almost all of the coverage was about Kimi and his antics (Kimi also wasn't wearing a tux fyi)?

As for "black athletes" getting specific stick in the UK, it's nonsense.

Oh.

 

[daan]

I guess I should clarify my hot take. First off, he must have a personality to have won it twice.

Everyone has a personality. Also, see point 2.

 

[Famine]

He's done that for a year or so now, only it's the winter break again (so he posts that content more often?).

He turned vegan last year and made lots of remarks about how bad meat was for the environment (I made a post showing the drop in the ocean his change of diet was compared to his job and the rest of his lifestyle). He's only now started posting pictures of dead animals on his Instagram, telling people that this is the price of their bacon and how the pigs' rights were never considered.

That post was actually slightly older than a post of him approaching an AMG GT R. Unless Mercedes made one just for him free of animal products, I'm wondering about the cows' rights...

The guy in the white tux? Oh no I've got it the guy in the gold jacket!?

This is "whataboutism". That a couple of other people are also choosing to put their own take on the black tie dress code doesn't invalidate the fact that Hamilton is doing it (for the third year). If anything, it reinforces it and his possible (and consistent with behaviour) reasons for doing it - choosing to stand out.

Kimi was ****faced and acted like a hooligan for almost the entire event. Almost all of the coverage was about Kimi and his antics (Kimi also wasn't wearing a tux fyi)?

Again, whataboutism. One person managed to stand out by action. Hey, another managed it with a really dodgy moustache. What's the relevance to the concept that Hamilton tries to stand out with his choice of clothing?

Oh.

I gave you reasoning too. If you disagree, please show the other black England footballers being attacked relentlessly by the press like Sterling unarguably is. I gave you a list, in case you don't recognise the England players' names (and, for the most part, I don't either), so it shouldn't be that hard.

I also gave you an example of another player, who also happens to be black, who did the same sort of thing Sterling did (wanted more money, went to a newly-monied club instead of staying 'loyal') a few years before, and got similar press treatment.

Perhaps you could also look at other players who make the front pages as much as they make the back, and their skin colour. Beckham, a lifestyle icon who flaunts his wealth and has/had famous girlfriends was absolutely pilloried for 1998, relentlessly for four years. Once and future England captain Rio Ferdinand's drug ban barely twitched the needle, although he did make the front pages for cheating on his wife, but he seems off-limits again now because she died. Ferdinand has a more private private life (although I recall he once advertised aftershave, with that classic unbuttoned collar, fastening cuff pose).

As I said, it's a cop-out to suggest there's a racist agenda with sportspeople.

 

[MatskiMonk]

He's done that [Veganism] for a year or so now,

him and his mates cleaning up a beach!

hmm...

Kimi was ****faced

.. think I'd rather be sat on the Kimsters table.

 

[baldgye]

This is "whataboutism".

Oh, so he stands out in a crowd because other people stand out more? ...But then I guess that's more whataboutism?

Again, whataboutism

Oh ok? So Lewis selfishly made the whole event about himself by wearing green trousers, but Kimi get's a pass because he only drunkenly made it about himself by acting a fool... and got all the press?

Sterling did (wanted more money, went to a newly-monied club instead of staying 'loyal') a few years before, and got similar press treatment.

Sorry, I guess there was a misunderstanding. I was referencing the post he made about two other footballers and the way in which they spending was reported by The Mail.
But The Sun and The Mail have both been accused of what I've said is the case, though that's more far-reaching than just sport.

 

[Famine]

Oh, so he stands out in a crowd because other people stand out more? ...But then I guess that's more whataboutism?

No. The point was that Hamilton tries (or appears to try) to make events like that about himself. That some other people also do that doesn't invalidate that observation in any way.

"What about Kimi getting drunk and getting all the attention" doesn't address, counter or invalidate "Hamilton tries to get all the attention". That's what "whataboutism" is.


Look at it another way. 20 drivers tried to be the best F1 driver in the world this year (well, probably six, with the other 14 just trying to place as high as they could). Sebastian Vettel was trying to be the best F1 driver in the world this year. But what about Lewis Hamilton? He did it, and succeeded more. Does that mean Vettel wasn't trying at all? Nope.

Oh ok? So Lewis selfishly made the whole event about himself by wearing green trousers, but Kimi get's a pass because he only drunkenly made it about himself by acting a fool... and got all the press?

Who said Kimi gets a pass?

Sorry, I guess there was a misunderstanding. I was referencing the post he made about two other footballers and the way in which they spending was reported by The Mail.
But The Sun and The Mail have both been accused of what I've said is the case, though that's more far-reaching than just sport.

That was Sterling's post about how he is treated compared to Phil Foden. Foden is Sterling's team-mate at Manchester City.

Sterling's contention is that it's because he's black. That's not the only difference between the two players. Foden is a Manchester City youth player - he's come through City's ranks. Sterling was a Liverpool player, had a decent season, asked for more money, didn't get as much as he wanted and, after a lengthy and rather public dispute with Liverpool and manager Brendan Rogers, signed for Manchester City in what's still the most expensive transfer for a British footballer.

Sterling's situation seems very similar to Ashley Cole. The press went after Cole in a very similar way. Cole is, like Sterling, black. Cole, like Sterling, had a very public contract dispute (with Arsenal) that ended with him getting a big money, big salary transfer to a newly-rich (and oil rich) club that was very popular to hate - but this time it was Chelsea rather than Manchester City.


For Sterling's contention that black footballers get targeted by the press to be true, there would need to be other black footballers that suffer the same fate. Sterling's black England colleagues at the World Cup were Marcus Rashford, Jesse Lingard, Fabian Delph, Danny Rose, Dele Alli, Ashley Young, Ruben Loftus-Cheek and Trent Alexander-Arnold. How did the press treat them during the World Cup? There would also need to be no white footballers that get poor press treatment.

 

[polysmut]

It's like saying Ronnie O'Sullivan, who this year took the all time record for most triple crown titles, didn't win because he's white. It's just not true, they didn't win because somebody else won instead.

 

[PeterJB]

Lewis is now in trouble for referring to Stevenage as "the slums". Admittedly most of the drivers either currently on the grid or in the lower formulas seem to come from either upper middle class or exceptionally wealthy families, so he stands out in that regard, but it's really not that bad. His dad had to work two jobs to fund his karting...for about three years until Ron Dennis came knocking, and he can wave the Union Flag around his head all he wants...whilst continuing to live in the Principality of Monaco because God forbid he pay taxes to the country he loves so much.

 

[Dennisch]

If parents can afford their kid to go karting, you're not even close to being poor or from the slums or whatever. Hamilton is just fabricating a non story about his great rise out of poverty. My ass. Respect for his on track skills, massive disrespect for his normal life. First class asswipe.

 

[Tired Tyres]

All F1 drivers are like that. The personality traits required to get to the top of the tree are not likeable traits as people. That's why teams have PR representatives. Being a PR mouthpiece is better than letting then say what they think.

 

[PeterJB]

True, but none of them dangle their personal lives in front of us nearly as much as Lewis, or ever come close to expressing anything vaguely political in nature.

 

[Dotini]

All F1 drivers are like that. The personality traits required to get to the top of the tree are not likeable traits as people. That's why teams have PR representatives. Being a PR mouthpiece is better than letting then say what they think.

Over decades of me racing and going to races, I've met many racers, including several world champions. As a rule, I have to say there is a strong "antisocial" character to racing drivers. Biggest exception I can recall is Jack Brabham.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Over decades of me racing and going to races, I've met many racers, including several world champions. As a rule, I have to say there is a strong "antisocial" character to racing drivers. Biggest exception I can recall is Jack Brabham.

For patriotic reasons I was always partial to Gilles Villeneuve but of course he was from an era with little exposure outside that which is carefully crafted. I've read a great deal about the impressions of his fellow racers and people who have met him and it's all positive from what I can see. His son on the other hand. Have you ever met Mario Andretti? I've met him in the paddock a couple of times at the Toronto Indy and he seemed like the exact same guy he appears to be on tv.

 

[novcze]

Respect for his on track skills, massive disrespect for his normal life.

I'm like Toto Wolf, I don't care what he does in his personal life as long as he performs on the track. I'm his fan since his debut, but I would like to see Leclerc to compete with him hard next year.

 

[MatskiMonk]

As a rule, I have to say there is a strong "antisocial" character to racing drivers. Biggest exception I can recall is Jack Brabham.

In my experience Alex Zanardi is the gold standard for drivers Character. Generally speaking, some drivers are just more friendly than others and some are more genuine than others... just like average non-racing driver people I guess.

Personally, I don't like Lewis, and things I've heard from a person who has been at social functions with both Nico and Lewis, Lewis was much more aloof... but I guess it depends on the environment.

 

[TenEightyOne]

True, but none of them dangle their personal lives in front of us nearly as much as Lewis, or ever come close to expressing anything vaguely political in nature.

Huh? How is his angle-of-dangle forever intersecting your personal line-of-sight?

 

[PeterJB]

Huh? How is his angle-of-dangle forever intersecting your personal line-of-sight?

If you look at most of the other drivers' Instagram and Twitter accounts, it's mostly just pictures of them training of playing golf or whatever (except Vettel who doesn't have any social media presence), whereas Lewis is putting up posts about how great veganism is and constantly bashing the media if they say something about him he doesn't like. Plus he has a history of high-profile break-ups and scandals with celebrities that tend to affect his driving. Pretty much no other drivers come anywhere close to expressing any political or social opinions or giving away anything about their personal lives other than how much they travel and how hard they train.

 

[TenEightyOne]

If you look at most of the other drivers' Instagram and Twitter accounts, it's mostly just pictures of them training of playing golf or whatever (except Vettel who doesn't have any social media presence),

So you're going to look?

whereas Lewis is putting up posts about how great veganism is and constantly bashing the media if they say something about him he doesn't like.

I'm guessing you prefer golf to veganism? I can't say I disagree... but you could always just not look?

Plus he has a history of high-profile break-ups and scandals with celebrities that tend to affect his driving.

I'm not sure about that. He's contested 12 WDCs and won 5 of them. Which of those were caused by break-ups and scandals, in your opinion?

Pretty much no other drivers come anywhere close to expressing any political or social opinions or giving away anything about their personal lives other than how much they travel and how hard they train.

I think F1 drivers are a lot more dull than they used to be, but I also think that Hamilton comes across as a bit of a dick. Don't look at his profiles, that's the best bet. Unless he's coming round your house all the time with Roscoe and some new plastic jacket you shouldn't find it too difficult to avoid him