Britain - The Official Thread

[Outspacer]

Starmer's constant, skilful but measured ...

... trolling

 

[MatskiMonk]

Looks like Tony Blair didn't choose the right Grail to drink from!!

 

[Wiegert]

I can't believe Sony got Tony Blair to play Revolver Ocelot in the live-action MGS movie.

 

[Outspacer]

Hartlepool fell to the Tories with a much bigger swing than predicted, 16%.

I can't see Starmer lasting long. It's barely afternoon and the knives are out en masse.

 

[Liquid]

Keir Starmer pulling a John Terry by taking credit for Welsh Labour's Senedd results. Don't see him doing the same for Scottish Labour. Funny, that.

Welsh Labour succeed in winning elections where "the" Labour Party fail; identity. I'm not a Welsh Labour voter and nor do I like London parties having offshoots in Wales or Scotland but it has to be said that Welsh Labour have created a political environment where they are perceived as different. They appeal to voters on a local level where, let's face it, what you should call the English Labour party does not.

Notwithstanding that First Minister Mark Drakeford had compassionate, competent leadership during 2020. He increased his own constitiency majority by 10,000, a huge amount in relation to Welsh constituency population sizes.

Edit: Personal consolation highlight for me is that Neil Hamilton lost his Senedd seat. Hilarious. It was an aborration that he ever won in the first place.

 

[Biggles]

So ... Trump loses while "stone cold loser" Sadiq Khan wins a second term. Shocking!

 

[TenEightyOne]

Police are considering whether or not to excavate a cafe in search of one of Fred West's victims. It seems that a documentary crew were filming in the building when they came across "evidence that there might be a body buried there". It's an odd setup for the story but I guess we'll find out more over the next few days.

Fred West wiki for those who don't know about this foul piece of ****'s murderous escapades.

 

[Tired Tyres]

Keir Starmer pulling a John Terry by taking credit for Welsh Labour's Senedd results. Don't see him doing the same for Scottish Labour. Funny, that.

Welsh Labour succeed in winning elections where "the" Labour Party fail; identity. I'm not a Welsh Labour voter and nor do I like London parties having offshoots in Wales or Scotland but it has to be said that Welsh Labour have created a political environment where they are perceived as different. They appeal to voters on a local level where, let's face it, what you should call the English Labour party does not.

Notwithstanding that First Minister Mark Drakeford had compassionate, competent leadership during 2020. He increased his own constitiency majority by 10,000, a huge amount in relation to Welsh constituency population sizes.

Edit: Personal consolation highlight for me is that Neil Hamilton lost his Senedd seat. Hilarious. It was an aborration that he ever won in the first place.

I'm wondering how much of the success of the incumbent parties is down to a vote of confidence in how they are dealing with Covid.

 

[Liquid]

I'm wondering how much of the success of the incumbent parties is down to a vote of confidence in how they are dealing with Covid.

It's definitely helped Welsh Labour. Wales has managed well with the tools at its disposal; lowest case rate per capita, highest vaccination rate per capita.

Them doing quite well really hampered Plaid's campaign to persuade on-the-fence Labour voters.

 

[MatskiMonk]

This sounds like effectively charging people to vote every five years. I've lost my birth certificate so would be up the creek in this scenario. I wonder how housewives get along.

Thought I'd pick up on this topic in this thread.

Taking the politics out of it for a moment (I agree it may well have an effect on who votes and who doesn't), is it really so bad in principle? As a premise, being able to prove you are who you say you are seems relevant in many scenarios, why not when casting your say in a vote?

I'm on the fence about it personally. At the moment, there's really nothing stopping people casting other peoples votes, provided you simply know their name and address, the fact we don't see proven instances of voter fraud is possibly more by chance than by design at the moment, so I'm not totally buying the standpoint that says it's a solution looking for a problem. With this in mind I think some action does need to be taken to tie your right to vote to you when they hand you the ballot papers.

I'll admit that I think a long term goal should be mandatory participation in General Elections at least (tied to a NOTA option also being mandatory), so at some point I'd have to accept controls put in place to monitor attendance at the ballot box anyway.

 

[HenrySwanson]

 

[Dotini]

Hartlepool fell to the Tories with a much bigger swing than predicted, 16%.

I can't see Starmer lasting long. It's barely afternoon and the knives are out en masse.

Is this collapse of Labour representative of the national level?

 

[Liquid]

Is this collapse of Labour representative of the national level?

In England.

 

[Touring Mars]

Is this collapse of Labour representative of the national level?

I'm not sure that it's a real swing from Left to Right, but more of a reflection of voters continuing to believe that Brexit is great and that they stand to benefit. Hartlepool voted almost 70% in favour of Brexit, and hence a lot of voters will be pleased with the Tories for delivering. Hartlepool is also supposedly in line to become a 'freeport', which 'will create a tsunami of jobs' (allegedly), even though the government's masterplan of creating freeports already seems to be hitting the buffers, as is the rest of their Brexit 'plans' (and I use the word 'plans' very loosely indeed...)

 

[UKMikey]

Taking the politics out of it for a moment (I agree it may well have an effect on who votes and who doesn't), is it really so bad in principle? As a premise, being able to prove you are who you say you are seems relevant in many scenarios, why not when casting your say in a vote?

I'm not saying it's bad so much as inequitable. If everyone needs ID to vote then making it as easy as possible (preferably free) for those who find it hard to get ID is the kind of principle I'd rather support.

Right now this seems like they're turning voting into a privilege, not the universal right it should be. You can't make it mandatory and then make it impossible for some people to vote at the same time. Especially when the evidence of fraud is minimal. Disenfranchisement sucks.

If the low incidence of fraud is just chance, then why have we always been lucky? Why hasn't it gone wrong before, or elsewhere?

 

[MatskiMonk]

If everyone needs ID to vote then making it as easy as possible (preferably free) for those who find it hard to get ID is the kind of principle I'd rather support.

I have no problem agreeing with this. Honestly though, I don't know what aspects make it hard for people to get ID. Is it just cost?

Right now this seems like they're turning voting into a privilege, not the universal right it should be

Again, it depends on the barriers to the 'privilege'. If anyone can qualify for ID, is it a privilege?

You can't make it mandatory and then make it impossible for some people to vote at the same time

It's currently impossible to vote without being on the electoral register, we already have to do something to qualify for our right to vote. Obviously making anything mandatory, whether it be voting, or requiring ID to make an optional vote, needs to be done carefully and inclusively.

Disenfranchisement sucks.

Agreed, but there's a difference between having the right to vote removed, and losing the ability to vote, especially if regaining the ability to vote could be as simple as filling in an additional form.

If the low incidence of fraud is just chance, then why have we always been lucky? Why hasn't it gone wrong before, or elsewhere?

I'd imagine the same as most election fraud... because the number of people required to make a difference in a general election is significant, and since you'd therefore have to organise a lot of people into a criminal act, the risk is probably not worth the reward. It's enough to dissuade law-abiding people from doing it, but offers no protection from those who set out to do it. And as with most fraud, you don't know how much of it is going on, if the fraudsters are getting it right.

About the only mitigating technique at the moment, is the partial removal of the supposed anonymity attached to voting, and I'd suggest that's hardly provides an ideal solution either.

 

[Liquid]

If getting valid voting ID isn't free (unlike a passport) and issued without obligation (unlike a driving licence), you're effectively paying to vote. Whatever the semantics, that is wrong.

Quite telling that 15 years ago national ID cards were a big no-no for Tories but now it's seen as imperative. And equally as telling is that some people have gone from "I refuse to have a covid passport" to "Everybody must have voting ID" in less than a week.

6 cases of voter fraud is 6 too many, it was said by a Minister (Hancock, I think). I wonder how many covid deaths are too many? Or children in food poverty? Tory appeals to the public on "serious issues" have all the warmth and sincerity of petrol station flowers.

 

[Outspacer]

Is this collapse of Labour representative of the national level?

Yes and no. The shock wasn't so much that Labour lost, it's that they lost by so much. But they fielded a remainer in a brexit area, which was never going to help! Overall I'd have to say it's somewhat representative of the shift in England but I wouldn't go so far as to say that shift is a 'collapse', and I don't think it's irreversible - if Labour can get their act together and unified.

OTOH, you have Peter Mandelson pointing out Labour's General Election success over the last 42 years - “Lose, lose, lose, lose, Blair, Blair, Blair, lose, lose, lose, lose”. And since New Labour is now viewed by the party as Not Labour, this losing streak is nothing new at all in a sense.

(While looking for that Mandelson quote to get the number of losses correct, I found this article which I think is a fairly reasonable assessment of the situation).

I'm not sure that it's a real swing from Left to Right, but more of a reflection of voters continuing to believe that Brexit is great and that they stand to benefit. Hartlepool voted almost 70% in favour of Brexit, and hence a lot of voters will be pleased with the Tories for delivering. Hartlepool is also supposedly in line to become a 'freeport', which 'will create a tsunami of jobs' (allegedly), even though the government's masterplan of creating freeports already seems to be hitting the buffers, as is the rest of their Brexit 'plans' (and I use the word 'plans' very loosely indeed...)

Thornberry's claim that "the clauses could easily have been removed during the trade discussions" is false, surely - that would be against the fundamental logic of a freeport, as I understand it, being a bit of the UK that isn't counted as part of the UK for trade purposes.

But yeah, even if we assume that there are companies who could take advantage of a freeport, the question remains whether they simply move jobs there from the rest of the UK (with no net benefit for us) or from abroad (which would be a benefit). I really can't see it amounting to anything like a 'tsunami' of new jobs.

Similar is true for the promised 'green' jobs, IMO. We must already have a fair number of people working in the sector, I'm guessing mostly in building wind turbines. It's hard to see where many more jobs come from.

I don't think it's all about Brexit though. I reckon things like Boris' mantra about "levelling up" have played well to gain votes in the North (even though I believe it to be a fairly hollow promise). If I'm wrong, I might have to agree with Farage when he says that once Labour voters went UKIP they never went back.

 

[TheCracker]

Hartlepool is also supposedly in line to become a 'freeport', which 'will create a tsunami of jobs'

I believe several new positions for qualified monkey-hangers have already been advertised in readiness.

 

[Novalee]

Looks like Tony Blair didn't choose the right Grail to drink from!!

war crimes will do that to humans oddly enough . Owell .

 

[UKMikey]

I have no problem agreeing with this. Honestly though, I don't know what aspects make it hard for people to get ID. Is it just cost?

You need a birth certificate or certificate of naturalisation, also one for any parents born outside of the UK. If I hadn't got one while my dad was still alive I think it'd be very difficult for me to get a passport now.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-first-adult-passport/what-documents-you-need-to-apply

Again, it depends on the barriers to the 'privilege'. If anyone can qualify for ID, is it a privilege?

These barriers would be time, effort and specific documents, each of which need to be sent to the passport office and individually verified.

They are also by no means free of charge.

https://www.gov.uk/passport-fees

If the government is going to introduce universal photo ID cards, then they have to make it easier than this or risk dissuading people from voting who were perfectly eligible before. I imagine it'd be more than six of them, too.

 

[MatskiMonk]

You need a birth certificate or certificate of naturalisation, also one for any parents born outside of the UK. If I hadn't got one while my dad was still alive I think it'd be very difficult for me to get a passport now.

This assumes the requirements will be the same as Passports, which as far as I'm aware isn't the case.

A statement from Conservative MP Chloe Smith:

The list of approved photo ID will not be limited to UK passports or driving licences. A broad range of documents already in use will be accepted, including, for example, various concessionary travel passes, Proof of Age Standards Scheme (PASS) cards, and photocard parking permits issued as part of the Blue Badge scheme. In addition, expired photographic ID will be accepted as long as the photograph is of a good enough likeness to allow polling station staff to confirm the identity of the holder.

For any voter who does not have one of the required forms of photographic ID, a free, local Voter Card will be available from their local authority.

 

[UKMikey]

This assumes the requirements will be the same as Passports, which as far as I'm aware isn't the case.

A statement from Conservative MP Chloe Smith:

The list of approved photo ID will not be limited to UK passports or driving licences. A broad range of documents already in use will be accepted, including, for example, various concessionary travel passes, Proof of Age Standards Scheme (PASS) cards, and photocard parking permits issued as part of the Blue Badge scheme. In addition, expired photographic ID will be accepted as long as the photograph is of a good enough likeness to allow polling station staff to confirm the identity of the holder.

For any voter who does not have one of the required forms of photographic ID, a free, local Voter Card will be available from their local authority.

I guess we'll just have to see what the net effect is on numbers of minority and older voters.

 

[Outspacer]

 

[Daz555]

I guess we'll just have to see what the net effect is on numbers of minority and older voters.

I think the view is that the young, disabled, and minorities with English as a second language will be less likely to have photo ID than others and less likely to get one come election time.

Makes you wonder if that is the whole point of the legislation.

 

[UKMikey]

I think the view is that the young, disabled, and minorities with English as a second language will be less likely to have photo ID than others and less likely to get one come election time.

Makes you wonder if that is the whole point of the legislation.

Hey, it's their fault for not having ID even though they never needed it until we changed it. I mean, doesn't everyone drive these days? If it helps us catch a half dozen dirty fraudsters here and there, it's absotively worth it.

 

[TenEightyOne]

I knew a primary school teacher who moved to a cabin crew job. She said the UK package flights were the worst, you have to start stern and get sterner or you never leave the gate. Gawd bless us, we do like a larrrfff.

 

[MatskiMonk]

... and less likely to get one

I agree the problem is if they cannot get one. If they just can't be bothered, then we can just chalk it up to voter apathy, which is a far wider ranging problem that needs addressing. If people have managed to register to vote, I don't see why they cannot (or would not) register to get a free voter ID from their local authority. Honestly, of all the issues facing the British electoral system, I don't see why there's so much fuss over the requirement to demonstrate you are who you say you are.

 

[Scaff]

I agree the problem is if they cannot get one. If they just can't be bothered, then we can just chalk it up to voter apathy, which is a far wider ranging problem that needs addressing. If people have managed to register to vote, I don't see why they cannot (or would not) register to get a free voter ID from their local authority.

Because its adding in additional steps, which will disproportionally affect the young, poor and minorities. No matter which way you cut it that will be the case, even the claim of free doesn't stack up.

Are the photos needed going to be free or will you have to pay to get them?
Will employers be mandated to provide people paid leave to go and get them done?
Will any associated travel costs be covered?
Will you need to get the photo confirmed as you do for a passport, and if a person can only get a doctor to do this will the fee many doctors charge be able to be claimed back?

All of the above would be a minor inconvenience to me, but to many people they are real challenges with real costs and impacts on them (both financially and in terms of time). Simply attempting to hand wave them away as 'being too lazy' is naïve as to the issues behind it.

Aside from the hurdles it puts in place to get one you also have the impact it will have on actually voting, with polling station staff now having to check every ID and make a choice as to if that person can vote or not, based on a picture that may have been taken years ago (as my passport one is - I now have a shaved head and my brown beard is now a very grey goatee), will we end up with longer wait to vote, which again can result in voter suppression.

Honestly, of all the issues facing the British electoral system, I don't see why there's so much fuss over the requirement to demonstrate you are who you say you are.

Because its still a solution in need of a problem, and likely to disenfranchise more people that the number of fraudulent voters it stops (all six of them).

 

[Touring Mars]

I like to think I consider all sides of a debate and I often read news media from sites that I don't generally agree with in order to attempt to understand 'the other side' and to balance my own views and opinions, and I have done that for my whole adult life.

But IMHO, something has gone seriously wrong - and, frankly, I'm embarrassed to admit that I even gave some of these media outlets the time of day now, namely The Telegraph.

Say what you like about the BBC and The Guardian... yes, they are left-leaning* (unless you are left-leaning and consider the BBC to be nothing short of Nazi propaganda ), but they are by any serious measure, at the very least, balanced... and, IMO, serious about journalistic integrity and at least try to maintain a high level of accuracy and truthfulness.

The Telegraph, on the other hand, has gone down the toilet. Their lead story today is how "We won't let another special day be 'cancelled' by another 'scariant'"... pardon my language, but Jesus 🤬 wept... what the actual 🤬 is that? A "scariant"? You mean the viral variant that is currently crippling the world's 2nd most populous nation and that is likely to "spread like wildfire" (that's not me scaremongering, that's a direct quote from the UK Government that The Telegraph consistently bow and scrape to) among the unvaccinated (oh, and a fair few vaccinated people too...)

Seriously, I've had it with The Telegraph. I guess I should have known better than to try to understand that line of thinking, and to be fair, I do truly feel like I now understand that way of thinking... the trouble is, it involves switching your brain off.