Britain - The Official Thread

  • Thread starter Ross
  • 13,373 comments
  • 618,398 views

How will you vote in the 2024 UK General Election?

  • Conservative Party

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Green Party

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Labour Party

    Votes: 14 48.3%
  • Liberal Democrats

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Other (Wales/Scotland/Northern Ireland)

    Votes: 1 3.4%
  • Other Independents

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other Parties

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Spoiled Ballot

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Will Not/Cannot Vote

    Votes: 8 27.6%

  • Total voters
    29
  • Poll closed .
"The Pub Landlord" is standing. He is a character portrayed by Al Murray. Al Murray, the actor, is looking to satirise and ridicule UKIP by way of his most famous character creation as seen in Time Gentlemen Please!

If he won, he'd take the Crown Stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds and there'd be a by-election. But he won't. It'll just be interesting to see how comparable or dissimilar the two candidates are, given how Eurosceptic and 'traditional' the Pub Landlord is.
 
Tom
The concerns that I have are mainly based with the fact that if he does become a PPC that he will take away votes from the more serious parties, which could unfairly alter the result of the election, purely because people like the idea of a comedian standing.

I doubt the people that would vote FUKP would be seriously voting for any of the other contenders anyway. Plus if it makes people question how silly it might be to vote for UKIP, or, makes the other parties realise people are somewhat tired of the same old rubbish being spouted all the time, then I don't think it's a bad thing.

It'll be interesting to see the results.
 
Good grief.... http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-shootings-9988329.html

Britain First driving around London in ex army Landrovers as a "Christian Patrol..." in high Muslim population areas.

.... I mean really ...

Do they really think this camouflage works in London...

v3-britain-first.jpg
 
The Green party want to put Her Majesty in a council house.

She already effectively is in one (or more accurately, several national government houses). Putting her in a normal one and selling off the existing ones would just save the taxpayer huge amounts of money spent maintaining such places; all though in turn we might get less money from her paying the bedroom tax, presuming she actually pays it. :sly:

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Anyway, the polls have become fascinating recently. From what I'm seeing whether or not Sinn Féin actually bother to turn up for once and get involved in a coalition could ultimately prove to be the deciding factor, with neither the "left" (Labour, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, SDLP) or the "right" (Conservatives, Lib Dems, UKIP, DUP, Alliance) quite getting enough votes to form a majority coalition. Of course, May is still a while off and one of the two sides may just manage to outrun the other, but either way, a coalition of one of the two groups looks likely.

Some are speculating on a grand coalition, which I personally find unlikely. Going into coalition with the Tories would be a far more suicidal act for Labour than it was for the Lib Dems, and would most likely leave the Greens and the SNP as the countries primary left wing parties post 2020 (assuming Scotland is still with us), with disenfranchised Labour supporters who were more interested in keeping the Tories out rather than getting Labour in leaving in droves.

Another possibility is a minority government. I feel that one of these would be unlikely to succeed in governing effectively, with the rate at which bills get passed into acts dipping to a crawl; and that such a divisive climate could leave just a few dissident MPs on either side capable of getting through a vote of no confidence, even with the now raised threshold for such votes.

In fact, a deliberate vote of no confidence following the introduction of reforms bringing in some sort of proportional representation may be the only sensible (note this is politics where such things rarely apply) option, particularly considering the almost certain backlash at the tiny number of seats UKIP and the Greens will likely get proportionate to their not inconsiderable support (15% UKIP and 9% Green, according to Ashcroft).

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As for how I intend to vote, I'm as yet undecided. My constituency is a Tory safe seat, and as someone who would only vote Tory if it were tactically necessary to help keep UKIP out, my vote effectively doesn't count. :yuck:

Purely in terms of policies I'm most inclined to agree with the Lib Dems, but considering that in reality what they say and what they do don't seem to correspond I'm rather inclined not to vote for them.

The Greens, if anything, seem like a more likely option for me, presuming they bother to stand around here. I like their policies on the railways and some other areas, even if over all their extreme idealism and lack of pragmatism tilts me away from them. But the main thing with the Greens is simple, and that's that every extra vote for them and UKIP that doesn't translate into a proportionate number of seats only serves to create a slightly bigger scandal over the undemocratic nature of our government post election.

Of course, I wouldn't vote UKIP simply on the principle of not appearing to give more support to a bunch of xenophobic wingnuts; and a part of me is inclined to vote Labour just on the grounds of slightly improving their chances of getting the popular vote rather than the Tories.

As you can see, it's all extremely complicated and rather absurd, so you may ask "why bother voting at all, you stupid Horse?"

That's a great question, and one that makes me look rather foolish even if you don't word it in such a loaded manner.

Well, for me, it comes down to what I said earlier about emphasising the lack of democracy in our country. More votes for lost causes just serves to create more controversy when people don't get what they vote for.

I remember (I hope correctly) @Famine once suggested that people should spoil their votes when presented with a representative democracy where nobody represents them. Of course, this only works if invalid votes are counted, and I'm not aware whether or not that will be the case in 2015; and the ultimate idea behind this was to represent the voice of the ambivalent, which I don't feel represents me. I'm not ambivalent to politics, and I feel that a valid vote wasted on a principle is worth more than an invalid vote wasted on a principle.

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TL;DR, The polls are fascinating; I like the Lib Dems in principle, but not in practise; I'm hoping for a lot of Green and UKIP votes that don't translate into many seats and for Labour, as unkeen as I am on them, to keep the Tories out of having another term in Government.
 
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Does Sinn Fein still have an armed wing? Are any of the other parties fielding private militias or organizing martial arts training camps? In the US we have the excellent Blackwater militia, and private militias are proving themselves of great use in Ukraine, Afghanistan and Libya. As the extremes of left and right unite against a useless center, interesting possibilities loom for political and social reordering.
 
I think the SNP are likely to win a significant proportion of seats in Scotland and could easily be the 3rd largest political party at Westminster, effectively replacing the Lib Dems as power-brokers... the irony is immense, and surely it will not be lost on English people when the SNP form a coalition of convenience with Labour, denying the Tories power and threatening to meddle with English affairs unless more concessions towards Scottish independence are made by Westminster.

The days of outright Tory or Labour majorities are over, and coalitions are the only way they are going to get anywhere in the future. I think the resurgence of the Green party in recent weeks is likely to fizzle out - especially if their leader does any more car-crash TV interviews like the one at the weekend where she was torn a new one by Andrew Neil. UKIP will maybe dent the Tory vote a bit - but their only hope of any great influence is if they reign in their wackier elements and form a coalition with the Tories.
 
Anyway, the polls have become fascinating recently. From what I'm seeing whether or not Sinn Féin actually bother to turn up for once and get involved in a coalition could ultimately prove to be the deciding factor, with neither the "left" (Labour, SNP, Greens, Plaid Cymru, SDLP) or the "right" (Conservatives, Lib Dems, UKIP, DUP, Alliance) quite getting enough votes to form a majority coalition. Of course, May is still a while off and one of the two sides may just manage to outrun the other, but either way, a coalition of one of the two groups looks likely.

As far as I'm aware, Sinn Fein won't be the deciding factor in a coalition - the largest party here is the DUP, Sinn Fein's seat is not expected to change I think, whilst DUP are expected to regain one (the damn leader of the party of all people, but that's another :P). Depending on the gains the SNP make (or, heck, the losses of the Lib Dems), DUP could still be the fourth largest party and potentially act as kingmakers - and they're not really "right" aligned in the sense that if a Labour gov offered our assembly more money/powers they'd lap it right up......


But the main thing with the Greens is simple, and that's that every extra vote for them and UKIP that doesn't translate into a proportionate number of seats only serves to create a slightly bigger scandal over the undemocratic nature of our government post election.

I don't want to go into this in detail because it's such a big topic but it's worth saying that First Past the Post does have its advantages in my opinion, and I'd disagree it's undemocratic. It's a simple system, and it creates a direct and clear link between the members of a constituency and who represents them, something you can't achieve in the same way with PR. And it has the side effect of giving strong majority governments most of the time, practically a good thing, (but idealistically not good). Not a perfect system by any means, but no voting system is really.


I remember (I hope correctly) @Famine once suggested that people should spoil their votes when presented with a representative democracy where nobody represents them. Of course, this only works if invalid votes are counted, and I'm not aware whether or not that will be the case in 2015; and the ultimate idea behind this was to represent the voice of the ambivalent, which I don't feel represents me. I'm not ambivalent to politics, and I feel that a valid vote wasted on a principle is worth more than an invalid vote wasted on a principle.

Spoilt ballots absolutely are counted and announced as invalid votes. The way I see it is it's always the job of the politicians to convince the electorate they are able to represent them - and whether you're sure they can't, you're on the fence about it, or you don't know what I'm on about because you don't pay attention to politics, I'd say in all those cases the politicians failed to do so, and you should spoil your ballot. At least until they decide to put a "None of the above" option on the ballot paper..............

A spoiled vote is only really wasted because barely anyone does it, but it also puts the option in a unique position. If there's low turnout, the politicians can easily shrug that off with a number of excuses. If you could convince most of the people who don't turn out to actually go out and spoil - and let's be honest, a lot of them probably would be willing - then it'd be such a dramatic change I don't think the politicians could ignore it.
 
Okay, perhaps my original statement regarding the Northern Irish parties was hastily and poorly worded. My point was supposed to be that Sinn Fein's usual absenteeism could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to any viable coalition being able to get an outright majority if the election result is as close as many polls have been suggesting, but that the possibility of the DUP gaining a position of power within Westminster may tempt them out of their usual protocol.

Personally, I think that either some sort of Labour-SNP coalition (likely to include other smaller parties such as Plaid Cymru, the Greens, the SDLP, or just possibly the Lib Dems or Sinn Fein) or Tory-Lib Dem coalition (again, likely including UKIP and/or the DUP) will be the likely outcome, with the higher number of potential SNP seats tipping the balance slightly in the Labour-SNP coalitions favour, but honestly, at the moment, all bets are off.
 
I wouldn't be so sure about the DUP overtaking the Lib Dems or the SNP, Northern Ireland only has 18 seats (and I don't expect the DUP to contest any seats outside of there) whereas Scotland has 59.
 
As things currently stand it looks like Labour and the Tories will have an almost exactly even number of votes, with the SNP becoming the third largest party with somewhere between 30 and 50 seats and the Lib Dems losing half their seats to drop to being fourth largest. The DUP will presumably be fifth largest, while at present it is the fourth largest.
 
Okay, perhaps my original statement regarding the Northern Irish parties was hastily and poorly worded. My point was supposed to be that Sinn Fein's usual absenteeism could well be the straw that breaks the camel's back with regards to any viable coalition being able to get an outright majority if the election result is as close as many polls have been suggesting, but that the possibility of the DUP gaining a position of power within Westminster may tempt them out of their usual protocol.

No worries, I don't actually know how their absenteeism works, do they just not appear in parliament or do they not take up their seats altogether? If the former then they may well be able to go into coalition anyway (and convince them to appear for tight parliament votes).

And come to think of it if it means seats not taken at all does that change the number a seats a party needs for a majority? Feel silly for not thinking about it before, need to read up on this....

DK
I wouldn't be so sure about the DUP overtaking the Lib Dems or the SNP, Northern Ireland only has 18 seats (and I don't expect the DUP to contest any seats outside of there) whereas Scotland has 59.

At the moment it's the SNP (on 6 seats) who need to overtake the DUP (on 8 seats). Although you're probably right anyway - it's expected DUP will have 9 seats come May, and SNP will gain a lot more although I don't know what the projection is. But it's still all quite uncertain......well in England and Scotland anyway, nothin' never changes in NI :P
 
I remember (I hope correctly) @Famine once suggested that people should spoil their votes when presented with a representative democracy where nobody represents them. Of course, this only works if invalid votes are counted, and I'm not aware whether or not that will be the case in 2015; and the ultimate idea behind this was to represent the voice of the ambivalent, which I don't feel represents me. I'm not ambivalent to politics, and I feel that a valid vote wasted on a principle is worth more than an invalid vote wasted on a principle.
Spoilt ballots absolutely are counted and announced as invalid votes. The way I see it is it's always the job of the politicians to convince the electorate they are able to represent them - and whether you're sure they can't, you're on the fence about it, or you don't know what I'm on about because you don't pay attention to politics, I'd say in all those cases the politicians failed to do so, and you should spoil your ballot. At least until they decide to put a "None of the above" option on the ballot paper...

A spoiled vote is only really wasted because barely anyone does it, but it also puts the option in a unique position. If there's low turnout, the politicians can easily shrug that off with a number of excuses. If you could convince most of the people who don't turn out to actually go out and spoil - and let's be honest, a lot of them probably would be willing - then it'd be such a dramatic change I don't think the politicians could ignore it.
A vote is a mandate. There is no room for interpretation - you either agree with the party (or politician) or you do not, and the vote says that you do. It doesn't say "Well, I like what you say about the economy, but that thing about executing all Polish people is a bit rum" - it says "I agree". If that party gets in power and pursues the things you don't agree with first rather than the things you do, tough - you gave them a mandate to do it.

Not turning up to vote is ambivalence. Turning up to exercise your vote and using it to say "I do not agree with anyone" is quite the opposite.

Incidentally, yes, these rejected ballots are counted - but often reporting agencies like the BBC (and I use the term loosely) will only report turnout as the "valid votes turnout".
 
I've heard rumours about pulling Trident out of Scotland and mooring them off the coast of Wales instead. Off the Pembroke peninsula.

No freaking way.

I'd rather get rid of them all together and I certainly don't want them anywhere near my country, to get a bit nationalistic about it. Also, I'm sure Ireland might have something to say about that too, international waters, territorial waters or not.

Just rumours, mind.
 
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A vote is a mandate. There is no room for interpretation - you either agree with the party (or politician) or you do not, and the vote says that you do. It doesn't say "Well, I like what you say about the economy, but that thing about executing all Polish people is a bit rum" - it says "I agree". If that party gets in power and pursues the things you don't agree with first rather than the things you do, tough - you gave them a mandate to do it.

Given politics involves such a diverse range of issues I think it's fair for people to use their vote to agree on issues that are most important to them whilst perhaps disagreeing on things less important - providing they realise, as you say, that they are giving them a mandate to do everything and they're prepared to accept this for whatever reason.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jan/30/british-wage-slump-post-financial-crisis-uk
British workers are taking home less in real terms than when Tony Blair won his second general election victory in 2001, with men and young people hit hardest by the wage squeeze that followed the financial crisis, according to new research.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies thinktank said wages were 1% lower in the third quarter of 2014 than in the same period 13 years earlier after taking inflation into account.

Jonathan Cribb, an author of the report, said: “Almost all groups have seen real wages fall since the recession.”

However, the study finds that women have been relatively cushioned from the worst of the wage cuts because they are more likely to be in public sector jobs, where wages fell less rapidly during the early years of the downturn.

Aided at the start of the crisis by the relative stability of public sector wages, women’s average hourly pay fell by 2.5% in real terms between 2008 and 2014, the IFS found, while men’s pay fell by 7.3%.
 
After reviewing a 2013 social attitudes survey, I conclude it's unlikely that British society will be tearing itself apart anytime soon.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/National/article1399466.ece
THE pride of Britons in their national identity has fallen to an all-time low, with only one in five young people “very proud” to be British.

According to figures from the British Social Attitudes survey, to be published later this year, a third of people are very proud to be British, compared with 43% a decade ago.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/04/rise-quieter-british-patriotism
Sixty seven per cent are at least somewhat proud of Britain’s "fair and equal treatment of all groups in society", though the "very proud number" falls to 19 per cent, and 26 per cent are either not very proud (21 per cent) or not proud at all (5 per cent) of this. Perhaps surprisingly, 69 per cent say they are at least "somewhat proud" of the way democracy works, with the 17 per cent who say they are very proud of this being not much smaller than the 22 per cent who are not very proud (20 per cent) or not proud at all (2 per cent).
 
The fundamental idea is fairly sound: extremism and stupidity are bad. However, they weren't terribly balanced in presenting said view.
 
The fundamental idea is fairly sound: extremism and stupidity are bad. However, they weren't terribly balanced in presenting said view.
About 100 years ago the idea of "commoners" voting and deciding who would run the country was pretty extreme.
 
Alright, I'll rephrase. Extremism as a result of ignorance, prejudice, or bigotry is bad.
Pretty sure that covers why they commoners weren't allowed to vote as well. :lol: Who is it that gets to teach our children which political views result from ignorance, prejudice and bigotry? Who is the arbiter of what is ignorant, prejudicial and bigoted?
 
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