Camber Theory

Otaliema
Quick test not nearly enough to prove one way or another but it's a start.
I took my Viper GTS with the tune for trial mountain to High speed ring.
This is the average* difference in drive wheel speed to actual speed.
actual speed/drive wheel speed difference
End of the front straight
SH 297/314 17 km/h
SM 298/315 17 km/h
SS 299/314 15 km/h
middle between turn 3-4
SH 218/236 18 km/h
SM 218/234 16 km/h
SS 223/238 15 km/h
middle between turn 5-turn 6
SH 217/234 17 km/h
SM 205/222 17 km/h
SS 225/239 14 km/h
middle between turn 7-start finish line
SH 244/262 18 km/h
SM 231/248 17 km/h
SS 242/258 16 km/h

All speeds taken at point of full throttle in ruffly the same distance on the track +/- 100m
Click to expand...
Any idea what they say at a track like SSRX? Difference between front/rear speed?
 
i have not checked there, but let me see if I have a save from there.

I do not have a SSR X save but I'll grab my C7 TS tune and run Racing tires see what I get
 
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Otaliema
i have not checked there, but let me see if I have a save from there.
Click to expand...
When I did my camber testing at Twin Motegi Superspeedway, the fronts were always slower than the rears...even on the straights. I put it down to power vs quality of tires since the car was an FR. I gave up using data logger when I noticed the glitch when comparing 2 laps at the same time.
 
jules283
It could be percent slip, the longitudinal relative of slip angle.
If so, then higher power outputs should show the greatest difference :)
Click to expand...
well thats testable but will need a ton of laps someplace. like SSRX from 50% of stock power all the away to 50% NOS boosted full bore.
 
Otaliema
well thats testable but will need a ton of laps someplace. like SSRX from 50% of stock power all the away to 50% NOS boosted full bore.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily, it would only need a sample range of results to determine a pattern. Build one car set at 50%, one at 100% and one with power increased. Then just make notes of the relative wheel speed and look for a noticeable increase or decrease in difference at a specific point where speed/rpm can be easily maintained
 
DolHaus
Not necessarily, it would only need a sample range of results to determine a pattern. Build one car set at 50%, one at 100% and one with power increased. Then just make notes of the relative wheel speed and look for a noticeable increase or decrease in difference at a specific point where speed/rpm can be easily maintained
Click to expand...
good point. just more data is more accurate, and from what I'm seeing on SSRX with my C7, it's going to have a lot of variables to it.

Quick results from SSRX tests.
All races tires had a normal wheel speed difference of 6 to 8 km/h the higher the speed the higher the diffference.
upon use of NOS bringing effective power to 1300ish hp. the speed difference went upto 10 km/h and stayed there till the nos ran out than came back to the stable of 8 km/h for max speed of 470 km/h
This held on all Racing tires types.


The reason i'm suspecting a lot of varibiles, Track surface, tire quality, maximum hp, maximum torque, top speed, and maybe spring rate, dampers, camber, toe and LSD settings, an possbily aero. car weights more with aero forces so my reduce the slip on the drive wheels.

Does this hold for FF, M4wd, F4wd, MR and RR cars as well?
 
Otaliema
good point. just more data is more accurate, and from what I'm seeing on SSRX with my C7, it's going to have a lot of variables to it.

Quick results from SSRX tests.
All races tires had a normal wheel speed difference of 6 to 8 km/h the higher the speed the higher the diffference.
upon use of NOS bringing effective power to 1300ish hp. the speed difference went upto 10 km/h and stayed there till the nos ran out than came back to the stable of 8 km/h for max speed of 470 km/h
This held on all Racing tires types.


The reason i'm suspecting a lot of varibiles, Track surface, tire quality, maximum hp, maximum torque, top speed, and maybe spring rate, dampers, camber, toe and LSD settings, an possbily aero. car weights more with aero forces so my reduce the slip on the drive wheels.

Does this hold for FF, M4wd, F4wd, MR and RR cars as well?
Click to expand...
Indeed there could be a lot of variables to consider but also a lot of ways to isolate these influences.
I would probably start by setting camber and toe to 0.0, locking out the springs by maxing the values and doing the same with the dampers. Then one by one I would repeat a loop of one of the oval circuits where I could run consistently on the gas and change one set of variables at a time to determine which increased/decreased the change.
My aim would be to determine the overall effects and then work on the details later, I'm not too sure what I'm aiming to encourage/discourage with changes to the slip angle but I would have some idea of how to affect it once I get a grasp of the theory.
 
Ahh didn't think about that one.
I was running 0/0 camber ad 0.5 toe fronnt and back for stability at 470 km/h don't need the car twicing off the track at 4 mintues a pop I don't want to void the laps cause it's soo boring.
 
Motor City Hami
I have six saved runs on the same track and only two had the glitch. Plus, since it was at Trial Mt., I checked in an area of flat straight away. There is a 60 mph difference between front and rear wheels in a straight line all the way up into 5th gear. The car was tracking in a straight line with no red/yellow tires and gaining speed like normal. It's just weird.
Click to expand...
There was a glitch in the data logger before, where you had to advance it a bit before loading the second set of data.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/data-logger-bug-use-km-h-to-work-around.306644/
Maybe? Maybe not?
 
Lionheart2113
Same thing I noticed and got irritated about when doing my camber testing...
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...st-stage-1-results.302113/page-4#post-9836060
I'll have to try the advancing it a bit trick though.
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Using the data logger this morning my front left wheel was reading much slower than my front right on the straight ahead. With my front left reading at 62mph my front right was reading 98mph. I think the DL was showing the left wheelspeed in MPH and the right in KMH. We know that GT6 doesn`t convert accurately between them :
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/threads/autobarmy-trophy-help.310984/
Changing my units of measurement to KMH sorted the problem
 
I appreciate all of the hard work you guys do for the GT6 community. I've used tunes from all of you guys and I will continue to follow this thread, but I need to ask a simple question (because I'm now confused). As of TODAY, on the current 1.09 build, is the general consensus that we should be using camber or that we shouldn't be using camber for the best overall laptimes?

I remember when 1.09 released everyone seemed to agree that camber was now "working". Then I started seeing posts pop up (in threads all over the forum) where people would say that it's still "broken". I guess my question isn't whether camber works as it should in real life, but if applying camber (lets say on a Race Car that comes with camber applied in its' stock form) will improve or degrade lap times, on average.

Also, if the answer is "Use camber!" my next quesion will be: Should I trust the camber value that comes with a car in its' stock form (or default value when I purchase an adjustable suspension)?

Thank you all.

EDIT: I should add, before anyone says "test it yourself and find out!" that I'm just not consistent enough behind the wheel to trust my own laptimes as proof.
 
@ALB123 to be honest, I would say it depends on who you ask and what their driving style might be. My personal opinion is that there is a difference using camber, but it is such a fine line. The biggest gain I've seen is through entry and mid corner. All camber adjustments seem to add slight understeer on exit, but there could be 2 reasons for that. Is the rotation thru the center so good that it makes you think that you can jump on the throttle earlier (pre apex) leading to a tight condition on exit, or is the entry to the corner so great that by the time you have driven down to the apex, you have scrubbed off so much speed that it feels better but hurts your lap time? We are talking small increments here. It's not going to save your tune, but over adjusting can ruin it. If you go over the "sweet spot" on camber it can start causing issues in other areas that makes you think that what you've done before adjusting camber is junk. It can be a cruel mistress! I'm not a pro tuner, but that's my thought. I'm sure the veterans will add to or disagree. I apologize if this adds to the confusion.
 
@Lionheart2113 No confusion at all. Well, no more than I had before I posted! ;) Seriously though, I appreciate your comment. I was in the camp that believed adding camber after installing the 1.09 update resulted in better grip in the corners. I still do. No way do I feel adding camber degrades grip like it did pre-1.09. Still, I see comments from members here at GTPlanet that are well-respected saying they aren't sold on camber quite still. Then, I see some tunes posted by veteran tuners - some have camber, some do not (I'm talking the same car). That's what makes me scratch my head.

Also, I have been driving a lot of my cars semi-stock. I will install the Adjustable Suspension, but reinput the stock suspension values EXCEPT for the Toe value. I don't know why PD went and increased default Toe from .20 to .60! On those cars especially, when they include camber by default, I just wonder if I would be better off removing it completely, reducing it some, or leaving it alone.
 
@ALB123 I can't claim to have done extensive testing of camber, but I have done a fair bit and nothing I've tried has shown that using camber will produce faster lap times. In fact if you are hot lapping, I'd say don't use it.

I've not yet been able to tune a car to go faster with camber than without and when I have managed to get the times very close it has been after a two lap run without camber followed by lap after lap of tweaking camber settings.

There's a few tuners posting set ups with camber but the one's I've tried were quicker when I removed it.

However I don't think we'll see a consensus soon. Cars tuned with camber can be a real pleasure to drive, you can create a wonderfully balanced set up and you don't need to be a great driver to feel it either - thankfully :) Feeling more stable they could be a better option for online racing. I'll be testing camber for tyre wear this week and if it provides consistent lap times for longer, I'll look to use it in on set ups for our next race series.
 
@rams1de Thanks for your thoughts and insight. I will have to start tracking my times more closely and experiment with the camber setting. I wish PD could get this one right. Like you said, running with camber can definitely provide a balance to the drive that is enjoyable, but if it is just going to slow me down in the long run - I guess I'll have to think long and hard before I make any changes.
 
@ALB123 ,it depends on what you are looking for and driving style, I have found it to be an aide but not a cure. Will help in some areas of the track but hurt in others. I use it, with in reason and have my own belief that anything over 1.5 on front gets sketchy and over 1.0 on rear starts to hurt rotation. However, I have only tested FR and 4WD cars with 4WD liking less. Still testing like everyone else. If you keep up with or follow along the latest FITT Tuning Challenge(Viper Strike), some tuners are at 0.0, others are all over the place. My tune uses 1.4 / 0.7. Check it out here.
 
Most of my GT3 replicas can do 2:00s on SS tires, and most of them are well below 600PP ( 550+PP to 580+) with little aero ( 20 at the rear ). The X bow is light, so 600PP would not have much power :) 2:03s might be good, for comparison, I have built X Bow GT4 replica, also on SS and it can go 2:10s with only 230+HP and more than 800kg ( no aids, high camber - more than 5 total camber value ) -The X bow GT4 has real life weight distribution as well at over 60% at the rear.

Forgot to mention, this are all on 1.08 with camber still reducing grip :eek:
 
ALB123
Also, I have been driving a lot of my cars semi-stock. I will install the Adjustable Suspension, but reinput the stock suspension values EXCEPT for the Toe value. I don't know why PD went and increased default Toe from .20 to .60! On those cars especially, when they include camber by default, I just wonder if I would be better off removing it completely, reducing it some, or leaving it alone.
Click to expand...

When I start my preliminary tuning, I put camber and TOE down to 0 and go after what I believe are the major time savers...LSD and transmission. From there it's just a bunch of ups and downs trying to figure out the rest. It takes me longer, but that is down to my lack of experience. And I agree, going from .20 to .60 on toe is a huge jump, not to mention the camber default jump.
 
Lionheart2113
When I start my preliminary tuning, I put camber and TOE down to 0 and go after what I believe are the major time savers...LSD and transmission. From there it's just a bunch of ups and downs trying to figure out the rest. It takes me longer, but that is down to my lack of experience. And I agree, going from .20 to .60 on toe is a huge jump, not to mention the camber default jump.
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And in my opinion, not a helpful jump either. Default rear toe and camber need to be zeroed or lowered to begin with, then build the tune touching toe and camber after springs/dampers/ride height, LSD should be first then rechecked after other adjustments. Just my opinion, but I'm far from a Pro.
@Ridox2JZGTE, no one is as happy after 1.09 update as you:D
 
Things are slowly improving in gt but camber still feels wrong. 0 camber is still better to me. Anyone else notice this?

Previous gt's had a standard 2.0f/1.0r, is this too high of a setting in gt6? It seems reasonable to me but my cars start to push with camber and my braking is different. I'm not asking for tuning advice. I just want to get a feel of opinions.
 
I think you're right, I feel 0 camber is still the fastest, however now we can use camber to adjust the balance of the car, as it will let go a bit and then grip if you use camber. previously, all the camber did was remove total grip.

It's also weird that almost all cars in GT6 comes with higher rear camber than front, as its usually the other way around IRL.
 
Actually, the feel of the cars have gotten more realistic with this uptade, even if it did make most of them slower. (note: they're still not that realistic)
 
I have got to disagree with a 0 setting camber being better. On the few tuned cars that I have which have been getting tuned ever since day 1 I have noticed a huge change in camber.

I believe you might be running too much camber for the tires/car/tune you maybe running. With added camber your braking distance will increase due to less contact patch being used in straight line braking. The tradeoff for this occurs in trail braking where you will get more contact on your outside wheels helping/aiding in turning the vehicle I believe. I might have explained that wrong. If someone wants to step in please correct me to get the facts correct on that.

Another advantage that I am getting from the camber finally making a difference since 1.09 is being able to get on the gas a lot earlier mid corner being able to get a rwd car to hook up with traction a whole lot better then before the patch.

Et is correct with his analysis about camber losing total grip, but I do not agree with it still being faster with a 0 set.
 
Mid corner is when my grip starts to go with camber. Even with the standard settings. I 0 out the camber and my grip is back.

Why is it only fr's and mr's come stock with camber? Even when you upgrade to a race suspension it's 0 with ff and 4wd (not that I'm complaining)
 
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The aliens in the seasonal events all use 0 camber, that somewhat proof that it is still the fastest way around, the only time I saw someone use camber was the chaparall 2J at red bull ring, Immortal used 1.0 rear camber to get the rear to step out, I tried it, and it worked just as I described earlier, the rear steps out, and then grips, but it helps to rotate the car, so even if the initial grip was lower, it was generally faster because the war would push-understeer otherwise. a balanced car still is best with 0 camber all around.
 
This is subjective. Depends on the tunes and wheels being used. Camber is definitely faster with the proper toe settings. Nearly everyone I race with regularly online are pretty darn good and most have gone the route of camber use to keep up. Some don't like the feeling of it, but it takes quite a while to pair everything up. Just going to say that with a dodgy setup, then yes, camber will not help. You need to make use of the roll bars, struts and the camber level that likes said settings the most.
 

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