Camber

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Jack Napier
ABS testing I don't look at
Click to expand...
Jack Napier
This car has been tunned using no driving assist and a DFGT wheel. I have tested to make sure she drives well with ABS set to 1 as it seems is the GTP driving standard, so do not worry if you use ABS this tune will still work fine
Click to expand...


And here is a photo that proves you can't believe what you see in photomode to be truly what the physics engine is doing.

Nürburgring Nordschleife_.jpg



I read your theory regarding camber being more about correcting the Inside wheel. I agree it is a factor. But the added camber to the loaded outside tyre makes much more difference.


You have 3 xbow tunes to make faster with camber. Take your pick.
 
I remember that there was another thread where someone commented about how the xbow was the only car with good camber. Would it be a good idea to use multiple cars, because some cars could behave differently?
 
Hi @Jack Napier, I see you are a no assist tuner/driver like me, I'm interested to see how you would work an even more effective camber setup on one of my latest replica :


Ridox2JZGTE
SUBARU BRZ S TEIN SRC ( Super Racing Circuit ) Test Car Replica

Tuned to replicate BRZ TEIN SRC Test Car ( works on GT86 and FRS )
Comfort Soft​






CAR : Subaru BRZ S '12 ( also works on Toyota 86 GT '12 and Scion FR-S '12 )
Tire : Comfort Soft

Specs
Horsepower: 202 HP at 6600 RPM
Torque: 163.3 ft-lb at 6500 RPM
Power Limiter at : 93.2%
Weight: 1230 kg
Ballast : 0 kg
Ballast Position : 0
Weight Distribution : 53 / 47 as stock
Performance Points: 411


GT AUTO
Oil change
Wheels : Standard Size - ENKEI RPF1
Car Paint : White



Tuning Parts Installed :
Sports Exhaust
Racing Brakes Kit
Fully Customizable Suspension



Suspension - TEIN Super Racing Circuit Coilover ( Mid Rate )
Front, Rear

Ride Height: 110 120
Spring Rate: 10.00 12.00
Dampers (Compression): 6 6
Dampers (Extension): 5 5
Anti-Roll Bars: 1 1
Camber Angle: 0.3 0.2
Toe Angle: -0.13 0.17

Brake Balance:
6/6 ( personal BB) or for ABS 0 wheel : 3/3, for ABS 1 - feel free to use your preferred brake balance.


Recommended setting for DS3 user :

Steering sensitivity at +1 or +2, all aids off, except ABS 1 ( if not comfortable with ABS 0 ) with 6/6 brake balance as starting point.



Notes :
This is one EPIC REPLICA :D

So, the TEIN Engineer visited US soil to showcase their latest Super Racing Circuit Coilover Kit for the famous trio ( FR-S, 86 GT and BRZ S ) Their main car for the demo/test was Subaru BRZ S, the car was stock except for the prototype exhaust, stickier extreme performance summer street tire ( Ventus R-S3 - Comfort Soft in GT6 ) wrapping ENKEI RPF1 17 inch wheel, AP Racing Big Brake Kit and the TEIN SRC Coilover Kit.

The TEIN Super Racing Circuit Coilover is able to handle a range of spring rate :
Front : 8kg/mm-12kg/mm
Rear : 10kg/mm-14kg/mm
The Demo/Test car replica above had medium rate - front 10k and rear 12k spring rates and track damper settings as the real test car have.

Here are some suggested damper settings after extensive tuning and testing that will surely enhanced the experience with TEIN SRC Coilover :

GT6 Damper Recommended Setup for TEIN SRC replica ( adapted from real life setup )
Front / Rear

Track ( Neutral ) - used on the replica above
Compression :6 6
Extension : 5 5

Track ( Loose )
Compression :6 4
Extension : 5 4

Track ( Tight )
Compression :5 6
Extension : 5 5

Performance Winding Road
Compression :4 4
Extension : 4 4

Comfort / Daily Drive
Compression :3 2
Extension : 2 1

When tested at Willow Springs IRL ( not a pro driver ), the car was considerably faster than using stock suspension + factory tires ( same everything else ).

Streets of Willow Springs
1:29.xx stock suspension + tires
1:25.xx Ventus R-S3 + Tein SRC ( GT6 replica target time -Comfort Soft )

Willow Springs International ( Big Willow )
1:38.xx stock suspension
1:36.xx Ventus R-S3 + Tein SRC ( GT6 replica target time -Comfort Soft)

The replica above is able to post similar lap time :) or even faster in the hand of better driver. Tested in GT6 at both Willow Springs Big and Streets.

My impression : The TEIN SRC gives the BRZ/FR-S/86 GT a great feeling overall, exceptional handling and grip with understeer or oversteer that can be initiated almost at will by the driver.


Click to expand...

Please read the tune + notes thoroughly :)
The lap times are attainable without any aids ( no brake assist ), I easily did low 1:25 at Streets of Willow with 1:24 possible, and the Big Willow is even easier to achieve. I would like to know if you can increase the camber more than the replica above and still gives better grip + lap time - aim for as much as throttle input on the corners of both Willow Springs track without oversteer/losing time ( last corner of Streets of Willow and the 2nd corner of Big Willow for example ), and please don't change anything else. Look forward to hear from you :D
 
Some drama in my hood tonight no time for GT, but I got something I'm getting together that should be interesting...

It would help if you posted the tune of your"s you want used for the tracks posted... The link motor posted don't bring me to his tune, I post from my phone, so as I did please post up what's to be involved here in this thread so people don't have to fish around....

Also a side quiz :D

How much positive caster angle does the X-Bow have in GT6? Anybody?


Got to love the Pepsi Challenge.

Any takers on the Pepsi challenge??? I skipped over some stuff didn't see anybody up to it, but might of missed it..

You see once we remove the biased driving things might clear up... Pepsi challenge will take balls... Hard to set up and I don't think people can handle it, but I'll let you guys surprise me.

Men or Mice?
 
I will serious stuff happened in my hood to night, one still asleep the other not getting up. Things a bit tense. I will check the post and tomorrow
 
Jack Napier
You see it's NOT on my back to prove its done correctly... What need me to prover each tuning aspect is correct or not?!? Seriously?!?!

Since your OPINION is that's it's broken, it's on you to prove it's broken conclusively. OR accept it as opinion not fact until you can.

Nothing has proven camber to be broken... You are Just mixing up people posing your opinion as fact, and acting like babies if people don't just buy into the BS as it's a common OPINION.......

If you say it's broken PROVE IT or STFU & stop crying... You can't even prove your understanding of the adjustments let alone interpret the expected outcome... Obviously you think it's broken because you can't figure it out ;) and all that's been proven is that you don't know how to prove your bogus claim... It appears like you guys have NO interest in the truth and you refuse to take part in any viable testing shows your just selling BS, nothing more....

I'm the Bad Guy. You need people like me to point your fingers and say "that's the Bad Guy"
Click to expand...

But this "common opinion" is backed up with lap times and testing that has been posted over and over again. How much more information do you need?
 
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm more than bored now.

As someone else pointed out, Jack Napier was an alias for the joker in batman.

I think that is too much of a coincidence, and is supposed to be a clever hint towards his troll identity.

Unless Mr Napier responds with a tune for the x-bow (or that brz) I'm not Interested in anything else he has to say.

His so called Pepsi challenge is great in real life. Sounds like a genuine fair test.

Only problem is, this would really be impossible in gt6. Seeing as it's only Mr nappies that can drive without abs on SH. What a shame eh?

Anyone that hasn't noticed. Mr Napier has a tune up for the aventador with like 4.2 front camber. Anyone fancy trying it out and reporting back, apparently it's a right missile?

Got some trouble in my hood right now, can't do it myself. Yo.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ts-jack-the-ripper-aventador-lp-915-4.297694/
 
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FussyFez
A xbow tune I hear you cry?
. (note he hasn't re - done brake balance since 1.04, but that shouldn't be an issue for you to adjust now should it? )

ktm+xbow+r+12.jpg


Go ahead and improve that with camber.

Here's another.

KTM+X+BOW+STREET.jpg
Click to expand...
What's the name if that tuning calc and is there an iPhone version if it?

Edit: tyring this tune out right now I like it feels great apart from the brakes being almost useless with those settings. Changed it to 5f/2r and feels much better. Maybe it's cuz I use a xbox 360 controller I can't stand ps3 controllers.
 
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FussyFez
I'm not sure about anyone else, but I'm more than bored now.

As someone else pointed out, Jack Napier was an alias for the joker in batman.

I think that is too much of a coincidence, and is supposed to be a clever hint towards his troll identity.

Unless Mr Napier responds with a tune for the x-bow (or that brz) I'm not Interested in anything else he has to say.

His so called Pepsi challenge is great in real life. Sounds like a genuine fair test.

Only problem is, this would really be impossible in gt6. Seeing as it's only Mr nappies that can drive without abs on SH. What a shame eh?

Anyone that hasn't noticed. Mr Napier has a tune up for the aventador with like 4.2 front camber. Anyone fancy trying it out and reporting back, apparently it's a right missile?

Got some trouble in my hood right now, can't do it myself. Yo.

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...ts-jack-the-ripper-aventador-lp-915-4.297694/
Click to expand...
I'm gonna guess it's a different Jack Napier he's mimicking...lol.

Jack isn't interested in finding out the truth about camber, that much is obvious. There's no give and take, he acknowledges no one else's input to the conversation or testing results, he throws up a car and tune and dares everyone to try it and when they do, he mocks and ridicules them for no reason. When they improve on his awful tune with camber adjustments and drop seconds from their lap times, he says they can't drive without ABS or mocks tuning altogether. Using only the best of logic, Jack insists there is something wrong with us because we're faster without camber using his amateur tune. :lol: Even my ex-wife was more logical than that:D

Obvious troll will now troll again.:cool:
 
I agree with @Johnnypenso. Jack has still produced zero results or videos. He is not willing to respond to @Stotty 's test of his tunes, though it was done within Jack's demanded test parameters. The subject keeps changing when proof is shown. We do not need this stupid Pepsi Challenge. There are already plenty of time trials in GT6 and the FITT tuner challenges to prove out ones tuning ability.

This has been a fun show to watch, but now I am bored with it. I clearly do not need Jacks overly complicated and flawed method for me to be able to tune. We should simply let this thread fall into the abyss.
 
So I've been able to dial in a camber setting to a specific corner and it definitively improves cornering grip when done right. I already knew this but I am asked to prove it, and I will back what I post so here we go.... Since you need me to prove it works you have to follow along to replicate the proof, and so anybody can do the same.

The X-Bow is the perfect test bed with high caster and the rear end enjoying high camb this will help us is showing definitive results and makes it a great platform for our test. It will also be a good way to show a few things about tuning style. The car also has very divinities improvements when you hit the sweet spot front and rear

Unfortunately since its been dumped on my shoulders to PROVE camber works you will have to put up with me taking it slow and asking many questions to confirm everybody can follow along replicating results. I also post on the go so I won't have much sit down time outside my prep work (more then you think when I need to be definitive in my results able to be replicated by anybody) I promise you camber works as it should, now is the time for those convinced it's broken to re evaluate that opinion and do so seriously.... Keep the opinion if you want, just know I will prove it to be false.

I also need to get an idea of what you see going on during our test to confirm interpretations of results are unified one driver to the next. So please respond honestly, if you just want to sell camber as broken, get out you have no business taking part in our test. Only objective testing, your goal should be to see for yourself and help others see if camber works correct or not, your goal should not be simply to prove camber doesn't work because you have stuck hard to that position.

An important factor is that I need to understand the opposing point of view along the way, I will have to ask questions. All jokes and poking each other aside, for us to test camber and see it work we must understand what we are doing.. I will lose my attitude at this point if it is mutual. Let's focus on our test and making sure the results are as valid as possible.

Before we go to our 2 tracks we will first do some test on one corner. This is to evaluate the impact of our adjustments and see changes in handling manipulating this to achieve clear benefits in our corner , then once we all get to that point, we will apply what we learn to a track with multiple corners.

If tuners with tunes have cars tuned 0 camber you can go ahead at this point run a few laps at our 2 test tracks note your times.

Patients as I set up our corner test.

There are a few things to keep in mind.

The question first is do camber adjustments work as they should, after we can go over HOW to take advantage of this on a track with more then one corner, this will dictate to an extent if the tuner has the ability to take advantage of camber when there is more then one corner envolved

Long night, Rene RIP, good guy, civilian in wrong place at the wrong time.
 
My test Corner is the nice one on Silverstone, more details on that later.

To give people an idea of what we will be doing during our test and get an understanding of adjustment expectations, I will explain how I use camber in the corner. And to understand your opposing opinion I need to ask:

How do you think camber is used on the front wheels to aid cornering performance?

This is what I believe the GTP consensus is:
You think camber adjustments on the front wheels is to increase cornering grip on the outside front tire by helping flatten out the outside front tires contact patch?

Can you show me a situation where a slammed, race stiff, full weight reduction car will have pos camber on the outside tire requiring neg camber to flatten out the contact patch? Keeping in mind, caster gives camber effect for this purpose already and for the car jacked up, heavy, on soft springs tossing the weight around like a bobble head, we have since reduce the body roll drastically. Sow me a race car getting pos camber from lean in a corner please.

I see it differently...

For me I find the point where the inside tire sits flat in the corner. I then adjust the inside tire between neg and pos camber at that point while at the same time varying the amount of neg camber on the outside tire.

This allows me to manipulate the grip of both front tires in relation to each other and the balance of cornering grip front to rear. Idea being to use all 4 tires as best as possible. Because WT pushes grip to the outside our inside tires have less grip to work with altering the balance outside to inside lets us manage that grip to make the inside front assist rotating the car more.

Since we will adjust between neg and pos camb on the inside we will be varying the grip level of the inside more than the outside, but the key here is balance. The flatter inside tire will have its highest grip level flush but we tune to insure as we increase grip on the inside we don't do this at too much of a cost to the outside tire, we need to remember, the outside does have more grip to spare with the weight pushing the tires on the road, but we also can't over do it. We fine tune the sweet spot & while doing so we try to match the balance on the rear using rear camber and toe together to manage the added rotation from the front.

We need to understand what our adjustments are doing, so please show me a situation where your camber theories, IN THEORY should be working. Set it up and let's see.

I will show mana many pics along my process as I walk everybody through it, but it would help if I can see thing from the general perspective of GTP who form the opinion camber is broken.

Thank you.
 
suspension_9.jpg


Note that this only works for the outside wheel, but since the car will lean onto the outside wheels while cornering, that's where you want to maximize grip.

Click to expand...


Make sure you watch the video

I have taken this from another thread that you need not worry about.



That pretty much says everything I want to say on the matter.

I'm sure others will probably agree.

I said before that I have read your theory about it, but I still believe the outside tyre is what we need to be worrying about.

LotusCortinaWide.jpg



15P5845.jpg
 
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Make sure you watch the video

I have taken this from another thread that you need not worry about.



That pretty much says everything I want to say on the matter.

I'm sure others will probably agree.

I said before that I have read your theory about it, but I still believe the outside tyre is what we need to be worrying about.

LotusCortinaWide.jpg



15P5845.jpg
Click to expand...

Just delete the first row of information from your quote, as I have on this quote, and it's perfect. :D

Edit: it closes quote tag automatically. :lol:
 
Let's look at the test that have been done and I'll explain my opinion of why the test have not worked.

From zero until about .5 to 1 degree before and after the sweet spot we are to EXPECT a grip loss. The reason for this is until you get into the sweet spot window (.5 to 1 degree before and after our sweet spot) all we have done is reduce the contact patch of the outside tire... The benefits to the inside tire will not be felt until the tire starts to flatten in the corner, and that will vary one corner to the next..

Who said it was easy, without a temp gun and feathering patters to aid us the process is more complicated yes, but doable.



Yawn, uh-oh

Seriously it's important to understand the 2 opposing opinions.

I'm only asking for clarity of the GTP consensus that claims broken camber. I have explained my option on camber tuning is that too much to do
 
Jack Napier
My test Corner is the nice one on Silverstone, more details on that later.

To give people an idea of what we will be doing during our test and get an understanding of adjustment expectations, I will explain how I use camber in the corner. And to understand your opposing opinion I need to ask:

How do you think camber is used on the front wheels to aid cornering performance?

This is what I believe the GTP consensus is:
You think camber adjustments on the front wheels is to increase cornering grip on the outside front tire by helping flatten out the outside front tires contact patch?

Can you show me a situation where a slammed, race stiff, full weight reduction car will have pos camber on the outside tire requiring neg camber to flatten out the contact patch? Keeping in mind, caster gives camber effect for this purpose already and for the car jacked up, heavy, on soft springs tossing the weight around like a bobble head, we have since reduce the body roll drastically. Sow me a race car getting pos camber from lean in a corner please.

I see it differently...

For me I find the point where the inside tire sits flat in the corner. I then adjust the inside tire between neg and pos camber at that point while at the same time varying the amount of neg camber on the outside tire.

This allows me to manipulate the grip of both front tires in relation to each other and the balance of cornering grip front to rear. Idea being to use all 4 tires as best as possible. Because WT pushes grip to the outside our inside tires have less grip to work with altering the balance outside to inside lets us manage that grip to make the inside front assist rotating the car more.

Since we will adjust between neg and pos camb on the inside we will be varying the grip level of the inside more than the outside, but the key here is balance. The flatter inside tire will have its highest grip level flush but we tune to insure as we increase grip on the inside we don't do this at too much of a cost to the outside tire, we need to remember, the outside does have more grip to spare with the weight pushing the tires on the road, but we also can't over do it. We fine tune the sweet spot & while doing so we try to match the balance on the rear using rear camber and toe together to manage the added rotation from the front.

We need to understand what our adjustments are doing, so please show me a situation where your camber theories, IN THEORY should be working. Set it up and let's see.

I will show mana many pics along my process as I walk everybody through it, but it would help if I can see thing from the general perspective of GTP who form the opinion camber is broken.

Thank you.
Click to expand...




So Formula 1 teams, who are at the pinnacle of motorsport technology are setting their camber wrong by making the outside contact patch bigger than the inside?
 
Why? I know the video shows the inside wheel being used on turn in but it's minor compared to what the outside tyre see's mid corner.




Edit:.. Oh, you meant that bit.. Done:D
 
I think the opinion is that camber does affect the wheels, it makes the actual wheels do what they should physically, but once it translates to the physics engine it is not performing the way it should be.
 
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