Car Of The Month Club! EVENTS COMPLETE

[VBR]

...I think I'm gonna start doing OLR-legal dives (and I did a few in the last non-oval race). So consider this a warning and watch insides of your corners.

As long as a late lunge overtake attempt doesn't result in the other driver being punted off track or off their racing line, I'm in favour of them as it adds to the excitement of the racing. However, some people can't seem to tell the difference between late lunges & dive bombing. If you don't have "sufficient overlap" by the turn in point then the corner is mine, & I will be turning into it regardless of where you've poked your nose, if you end up off track as a result I won't be waiting for you. So consider that a warning & watch where you place the front of your car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I think I saved one replay from last night. Going to have to go through it to see what happened that I may have missed

EDIT: Looked pretty good to me. Couple of bumps and bruises but nothing that pushed the OLR that I could see.

 

[BrandonW77]

However, some people can't seem to tell the difference between late lunges & dive bombing.

I don't think you'll have that problem with anyone in this group. In the past, maybe, but with our current group it shouldn't ever be a concern and I can assure you that any bumps incurred won't be intentional.

A note: Even though I set the PP restriction at the level of a new car + oil change it is still of benefit to break a car in. My Audi is not broken in and even though the HP is the same the torque is at a lower level. It continues to increase (to a certain point) as the car breaks in (even under tuning prohibited) but until that point it can be a disadvantage at certain tracks. Sometimes this isn't an issue but on the long straights at Indy the cars in front of me were pulling away at a fairly rapid pace even when I was in the draft. If I was on their bumper coming out of the infield I would be 5-8 car lengths behind them by turn 1 and in danger of losing the draft. I was still able to be competitive and run with the pack but I really didn't have much chance of winning.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't think you'll have that problem with anyone in this group. In the past, maybe, but with our current group it shouldn't ever be a concern and I can assure you that any bumps incurred won't be intentional.

A note: Even though I set the PP restriction at the level of a new car + oil change it is still of benefit to break a car in. My Audi is not broken in and even though the HP is the same the torque is at a lower level. It continues to increase (to a certain point) as the car breaks in (even under tuning prohibited) but until that point it can be a disadvantage at certain tracks. Sometimes this isn't an issue but on the long straights at Indy the cars in front of me were pulling away at a fairly rapid pace even when I was in the draft. If I was on their bumper coming out of the infield I would be 5-8 car lengths behind them by turn 1 and in danger of losing the draft. I was still able to be competitive and run with the pack but I really didn't have much chance of winning.

My car only has mileage from 2 race dates and nothing else. I think what you're experiencing is just a poor exit from the infield onto the big track. The draft effect is so weak below 200 km/h and not much better above that, that if you get even a slightly slower exit from the final corner you gain nothing from the draft. Happened to me a few times, but when I got it right, a good exit from the final infield corner, I could draft by someone.

 

[VBR]

I don't think you'll have that problem with anyone in this group. In the past, maybe, but with our current group it shouldn't ever be a concern and I can assure you that any bumps incurred won't be intentional.

I know, the racing here has been great for me so far, I like driving with you guys. Little unintentional bumps, taps, & paint swapping is all part of racing imo. Although I strive not to make contact, it does happen sometimes, & I'm not too concerned about it unless I get hit off track/off line or I hit someone else off.

I think the problem with using AWD/4WD cars on very grippy tyres is that it levels the field quite a lot. I noticed this whilst running SSCS when we used the Impreza, the field ran closer together than usual, & it was much harder to overtake. I think in the Mazda we might see more of a difference between people, & the race results may not be so close.

 

[dsgerbc]

If you don't have "sufficient overlap" by the turn in point then the corner is mine, & I will be turning into it regardless of where you've poked your nose, if you end up off track as a result I won't be waiting for you. So consider that a warning & watch where you place the front of your car.

That's all fine.

I don't think you'll have that problem with anyone in this group.

I think he's referring to people calling OLR-legal lunges dives and getting upset. That happens. I'll admit, in points racing constant dives in early laps by someone who's only there because of the enormous draft are annoying.


Another thing quite a few people do not expect: When someone's one your inside before a sharp corner they can choose a line that is different from the fastest, but ensures that they will out-accelerate you to the next corner. Often in this case you'd get people turning into cars clearly on their inside because they think the driver on the inside will turn-in just a hair later than on the optimal line giving them (car on the outside) a chance to drive the corner just a car-length wide of the optimal apex, when in fact the driver on the inside plans a much later turn-in from a slower speed, the one that ensures the trajectory is sharp enough to avoid going side-by-side to the next corner.

In GT5 it's usually not a big deal, just a bump. In eyeracing it can break your suspension....

 

[VBR]

Just to let you guys know that Brandon PM'd me to ask if I'll host on Saturday, & I said yes. I hope to see a few of you racing this weekend even though the boss is away.

 

[dsgerbc]

My car only has mileage from 2 race dates and nothing else. I think what you're experiencing is just a poor exit from the infield onto the big track. The draft effect is so weak below 200 km/h and not much better above that, that if you get even a slightly slower exit from the final corner you gain nothing from the draft. Happened to me a few times, but when I got it right, a good exit from the final infield corner, I could draft by someone.

I think it all depens on the gap to the car in front, same gap for the person in front to the next car, etc.

I had a few cases where I was 2-3 car length behind someone, and had him pull away because he was 1-2 car length behind the person in front of him.

 

[BrandonW77]

Just to let you guys know that Brandon PM'd me to ask if I'll host on Saturday, & I said yes. I hope to see a few of you racing this weekend even though the boss is away.

I know a couple people can't make it this Saturday, wondering if there will be enough people around this weekend to open up the room? I won't be around but you all are welcome to open up the lounge and do some racing, I feel VBR will be quite capable guest host if anyone is interested. I personally enjoyed Indy Road quite a bit and recommend everyone give it a go if you're able.

I think it all depens on the gap to the car in front, same gap for the person in front to the next car, etc.

I had a few cases where I was 2-3 car length behind someone, and had him pull away because he was 1-2 car length behind the person in front of him.

In my case it was a combination of those factors, JP's exit speed theory and my low on torque theory. I do struggle to get a good exit speed off that turn but there were several times where I got superior exit speed and was gaining on the car in front of me until IndyCar Turn1 at which point the car in front would start to pull away, partly due to him drafting the car in front and partly due to my lack of torque. Other times it was due to poor exit speed. Regardless, breaking the car in to get that extra torque is probably of some benefit.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'll be on call but I'll try to make it for Saturday. I didn't volunteer to host because I'm never sure if I'll be available or not.

 

[dsgerbc]

Regardless, breaking the car in to get that extra torque is probably of some benefit.

Then you'll get less torque around 6k rpm than a zero-mile 446pp car.

If it's in turn that you were falling back, maybe try turning steering wheel less to scrub off less speed. It's much harder to follow an optimal line through there in (double) draft w/o abusing the tires and scrubbing off speed.

 

[BrandonW77]

Then you'll get less torque around 6k rpm than a zero-mile 446pp car.

If it's in turn that you were falling back, maybe try turning steering wheel less to scrub off less speed. It's much harder to follow an optimal line through there in (double) draft w/o abusing the tires and scrubbing off speed.

Is it more important to have more torque at 6k rpm than closer to redline?

I try to never turn the wheel more than 90º..........key word there is "try".

 

[dsgerbc]

Is it more important to have more torque at 6k rpm than closer to redline?

I try to never turn the wheel more than 90º..........key word there is "try".

Who knows. I only said 6k because peak HP is there, and that's where you lose HP/torque when you downtune the car. You might be gaining a hair at 5k. Like I said, it's hard to stay on the line in strong draft there. So I'm guessing it's more about scrubbing speed via tires than lack of torque.

 

[VBR]

I know a couple people can't make it this Saturday, wondering if there will be enough people around this weekend to open up the room? I won't be around but you all are welcome to open up the lounge and do some racing, I feel VBR will be quite capable guest host if anyone is interested. I personally enjoyed Indy Road quite a bit and recommend everyone give it a go if you're able.

I'll be in the lobby about 20 minutes from the event start time to warm up. We'll see how many people turn up & then take it from there.


👍

 

[BrandonW77]

Who knows. I only said 6k because peak HP is there, and that's where you lose HP/torque when you downtune the car. You might be gaining a hair at 5k. Like I said, it's hard to stay on the line in strong draft there. So I'm guessing it's more about scrubbing speed via tires than lack of torque.

I didn't intend to start a debate, but I do consider myself a bit of an expert on poor exit speed and scrubbing tires at inopportune times. I'm not denying those were factors but there was more in play in this case. Yes, it's a very long straight out of the final turns at Indy Road which will exaggerate the effects of a bad exit, but this was also happening on the Hullman straight through the middle of the infield as well as during the oval race we did at IMS. Maybe it wasn't due to low torque and was more due to a bad connection or something. The main point of my post was to let people know (in case they didn't already) that a non-broken in car limited to the same PP as a broken will have less torque until it is fully broken in. I didn't know this until recently.

I'll be in the lobby about 20 minutes from the event start time to warm up. We'll see how many people turn up & then take it from there.

👍

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I didn't intend to start a debate, but I do consider myself a bit of an expert on poor exit speed and scrubbing tires at inopportune times. I'm not denying those were factors but there was more in play in this case. Yes, it's a very long straight out of the final turns at Indy Road which will exaggerate the effects of a bad exit, but this was also happening on the Hullman straight through the middle of the infield as well as during the oval race we did at IMS. Maybe it wasn't due to low torque and was more due to a bad connection or something. The main point of my post was to let people know (in case they didn't already) that a non-broken in car limited to the same PP as a broken will have less torque until it is fully broken in. I didn't know this until recently.

Thanks mate, much appreciated.

All good debates can be settled by facts so I let Bob break in an Audi last night, changed the oil, used the engine limiter, then took it to SSRX along with a brand new fresh model from the dealer model, oil changed, and recorded the results.

0-100km/h (approx. 100m )
Broke In - 5.370 (-.094)
Brand New - 5.464
That's about a half a car length gain.

Looks like the broke in model is faster...from a standing start....which is expected with the slightly higher torque figures. However, other than at the beginning of a race, we don't race from a standing start. At Indy, most of the corners are 80+km/h, except for the hairpins which are in the 50's. Top speed is 240+km/h. So we're at 100+km/h for most of the lap.

So if we take the total time for the entire run...

1000m
Broke In - 24.967 (-.123)
Brand New - 25.090

...and back out the gains made from 0-100 km/h which don't come in to play at Indy especially entering the main straight around 100 km/h you get this.

Broke in Car 1000m Advantage -.123
Broke in Car 0-100km/h Advantage -.094

Differential +.029

Outside of the first 0-100 km/h the advantage of the broke in car, timewise, in the balance of the 1000m run it is only +.029 or about 6 feet at 211 km/h (top speed in the 0-1000)

Interesting to note as well, top speed in the 0-1000 was an identical 211 km/h at the line and both cars reached 250 km/h at the 2300 metre mark in top speed runs.

Draw your own conclusions. To me it says there is almost no difference between the cars, perhaps a tenth over the entire lap, given that over 900 metres of acceleration results in a gain of only .029 seconds.

 

[dsgerbc]

All good debates can be settled by facts

Good stuff. Goes in line with my expectations too.

Broken-in car gains a ft-lbs or two around 5k rpms, and loses about as much at the peak of HP.

Top speed is probably achieved at RPMs where the limiter has no impact, hence the same HP, hence the same top-speed.

 

[BrandonW77]

Well, yeah, get rid of all the variables like turns, banking, traffic, etc. and I'm sure there's not a ton of difference between the two. A more accurate test would be 10 laps around IMS Road in each car and then take the average time of your 5 best laps. If the difference is still only a couple hundredths of a second than I'm the biggest in the world for thinking that the differences I saw were a result of anything other than my own ineptitude. Who in their right mind would think more torque would be of any advantage when pulling out of a turn that leads to a long straight?

I guess I'll have to perform my own test tonight with the car in it's current state and then with it broken in and see if my laps times around IMS Road to see if there's any difference in my lap times or straight line speed. If the difference is negligible I will give everyone an ice cream cone for proving me wrong. 👍 I'll refrain from providing my opinions in the future.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

I wouldn't show up to a race that I wanted to win without a broken in car.

If that means anything.

 

[BrandonW77]

I wouldn't show up to a race that I wanted to win without a broken in car.

If that means anything.

Normally I wouldn't either, just haven't had time to get this one broken in and didn't think it would be that big of a deal. I wasn't trying to make excuses for me not winning the races, I was still able to stay close enough to the pack to hold on to the draft and proclaimed afterwards that it was some of the best racing we've ever had. The fact that a car continues to gain torque even when the engine is limited was new info to me and I was just trying to pass it along........certainly won't make that mistake again!

 

[dsgerbc]

I wouldn't show up to a race that I wanted to win without a broken in car.

If that means anything.

Broken-in and downtuned to match PP?
I don't know. If the race is long enough a zero-mileage car will actualy gain a PP or two during the race, helping you at the end.

 

[Marcus Garvey]

Broken-in and downtuned to match PP?

With very few exceptions, yes.

 

[dsgerbc]

With very few exceptions, yes.

I d/k. For me it would depend on how close transmission ratios are and the shape of the HP/TQ curve in the relevant RPM range. I'll try to see what those look like in this case later tonight.

P.S. I'd take that ice cream, perhaps with some beer, lol. Thinking about attending Indy500 this year...

 

[carracerptp]

Broken-in and downtuned to match PP?
I don't know. If the race is long enough a zero-mileage car will actualy gain a PP or two during the race, helping you at the end.

I don't think that works. Others have tried it and said the HP is a constant in the race.

 

[dsgerbc]

I don't think that works. Others have tried it and said the HP is a constant in the race.

Yeah, I guess I haven't thought about it carefully. I guess it's clear that mileage doesn't update in real-time cause if one quits the race he'll have the mileage on the car he had at the start of the race. So, scratch that.

 

[BrandonW77]

I d/k. For me it would depend on how close transmission ratios are and the shape of the HP/TQ curve in the relevant RPM range. I'll try to see what those look like in this case later tonight.

P.S. I'd take that ice cream, perhaps with some beer, lol. Thinking about attending Indy500 this year...

For me it would depend on the alignment of the moons and whether or not Orion has risen in the East.


I'll be at the 500, I'll buy you one of their world famous smoked turkey legs.

(No, that's not me. Random google pic)

 

[Johnnypenso]

Well, yeah, get rid of all the variables like turns, banking, traffic, etc. and I'm sure there's not a ton of difference between the two. A more accurate test would be 10 laps around IMS Road in each car and then take the average time of your 5 best laps. If the difference is still only a couple hundredths of a second than I'm the biggest in the world for thinking that the differences I saw were a result of anything other than my own ineptitude. Who in their right mind would think more torque would be of any advantage when pulling out of a turn that leads to a long straight?

I guess I'll have to perform my own test tonight with the car in it's current state and then with it broken in and see if my laps times around IMS Road to see if there's any difference in my lap times or straight line speed. If the difference is negligible I will give everyone an ice cream cone for proving me wrong. 👍 I'll refrain from providing my opinions in the future.

A driving test would be nowhere near accurate and can easily lead to false and meaningless conclusions. You cannot possibly be as accurate with your inputs as SSRX is with measuring the straightline data. It only takes one mistake to cost you tenths. A 0km and a 300km car handle the same, the only difference is when you put the pedal down, what happens. Straightline testing shows the difference is next to nothing. As I said, I was affected as well by a less than perfect exit from the final corner. If you don't get a perfect exit the guy in front gets a few km/h momentum on you and the draft is so weak it takes ages to catch up. If he happens to catch the draft of the guy in front of you, you'll never catch him.

Remember too, the torque measurement in GT5 is peak torque, not the torque in the rev range you are using. There is no measurement for that, but it's well known that using the rev limiter pushes the torque peak lower in GT5 and the entire range moves to the left with it. Using the engine limiter can easily lead to lower torque in the high revs you are using when racing.

 

[BrandonW77]

A driving test would be nowhere near accurate and can easily lead to false and meaningless conclusions. You cannot possibly be as accurate with your inputs as SSRX is with measuring the straightline data. It only takes one mistake to cost you tenths.

Which is why I said to do 10 laps and take the average of your best 5, this would (in theory) account for those bad laps and give you a clear picture of what's actually happening. To really be scientific you would increase the total number of laps and the number of best laps you average, but I think taking the best 5 out of 10 and then averaging those laps would give a clear indication and eliminate any noise in the data. If the difference between the two data sets (virgin and broken in) is only a couple tenths than it is within the noise and means there's no real difference between the two cars. However, if the difference is close to a half second (or more) then that would be statistically significant and indicate there is indeed some tangible difference between a virgin car and a broken in car.

Going through a turn will put lateral load on the tires which will effect grip and ultimately top speed (and this is the area where torque is a benefit). Doing only a straight-line test will not accurately represent the real-world conditions and the data will only be good for pure acceleration numbers.

 

[dsgerbc]

Testing lap average is fine. Just do a control: after you're done go back to what you started from and do it again. I bet you'd be several tenths faster

Here's another useless excercise: take a new car to the SSRX, do one lap. Save as ghost. Take a broken-in car, hook up a camera/video-recording software and record a lap with new car ghost on to see who's gaining at what rpms

 

[BrandonW77]

Testing lap average is fine. Just do a control: after you're done go back to what you started from and do it again. I bet you'd be several tenths faster

Yep. After both tests are done I'll have 20 laps more experience and that alone will likely lead to improved lap times. Contamination bias.