'Cheating' AI in World Tour mode...

if you can't beat Semi-Pro AI in an equal car than frankly you are not skilled.
No, i mustn't be then. Getting 100% in every other Forza game (including all the achievements in FM3 and all but two online ones in FM2) musta been a fluke. :rolleyes:

It seems to have been just a few races that are more difficult. I'm now up to race 9 out of 14 in the fourth (?) season. Haven't won all of them, but still have to barge my way to the front sometimes.
But as mentioned, i'm not really caring about winning in World Tour mode now - just gonna get through to the 10th season, then finish the races in Event Mode.

I should prolly try video me racing them to prove my point. I'm still finding the the grip of the car varies from race to race - autocrosses its really grippy, and races with Ferrari's etc its got hardly any grip. :odd:
 
I seem to think that the AI will sometimes get harder than online. I've one the majority of the online races I've participated in, and it just seems the AI go faster.
 
No, i mustn't be then. Getting 100% in every other Forza game (including all the achievements in FM3 and all but two online ones in FM2) musta been a fluke. :rolleyes:

It seems to have been just a few races that are more difficult. I'm now up to race 9 out of 14 in the fourth (?) season. Haven't won all of them, but still have to barge my way to the front sometimes.
But as mentioned, i'm not really caring about winning in World Tour mode now - just gonna get through to the 10th season, then finish the races in Event Mode.

I should prolly try video me racing them to prove my point. I'm still finding the the grip of the car varies from race to race - autocrosses its really grippy, and races with Ferrari's etc its got hardly any grip. :odd:

There are no hard achievements in Forza games. Unlock a platinum in PGR3 or 4 and you know you have skill. Forza achievements come from simply playing and playing and playing....
 
I got to one race in season 4 or 5 and all of a sudden it was almost impossible to win. Ended up coming second by about 5 seconds. Then the next race, same car and almost the same AI cars, and it went back to normal and I won easily. Almost felt like there was a difference in handling between the 2 races too
 
I got to one race in season 4 or 5 and all of a sudden it was almost impossible to win. Ended up coming second by about 5 seconds. Then the next race, same car and almost the same AI cars, and it went back to normal and I won easily. Almost felt like there was a difference in handling between the 2 races too

Man I had one of those championship races on Suzuka and it was BRUTAL. I was about 40 points under the rest of the cars in R3 class but I just couldn't catch first due to the cpu protecting him. Brake checking is one thing but these guys were damn near parking. lol. I was being creative trying to set them up to take each other out but I couldn't do that AND get by them AND catch first place in under 3 laps. I said "F' it" and pulled out the big guns (Ferrari) and smoked the group AI and caught first. Still wasn't a cakewalk but it was a lot better.
 
No, i mustn't be then. Getting 100% in every other Forza game (including all the achievements in FM3 and all but two online ones in FM2) musta been a fluke.

I should prolly try video me racing them to prove my point. I'm still finding the the grip of the car varies from race to race - autocrosses its really grippy, and races with Ferrari's etc its got hardly any grip. :odd:
You do notice that doesnt prove your skill level since you can complete fm3 with full aids etc, the best gauge is to hit rivals mode and see where you end up. the ai in grand tour mode isnt at full strength before semi pro season, so if you struggle before than theres is a lot to be desired.
 
I've not experienced any issues with the AI in Forza bar their collision avoidance system. They're not very quick and their cars certainly aren't faster then they're meant to be. I have everything as hard as possible and I doubt the AI will be able to get faster than they are now.
And yes, as already mentioned the AI auto upgrade their cars to reach the Performance Index of the class you're racing in.
 
I've been playing Ferrari: The Race Experience as well as Forza lately and Turn 10 could learn something from the AI in it. I was doing a 430 Spyder race and plenty of the cars in front of me were struggling to get the power down properly out of some of the slower corners. One guy even braked too late and swerved to avoid taking another racer out in front of him.

In Forza the AI cars just seem intent on barging you out of the way at every opportunity. It's a bit annoying sometimes but I usually find that ramming them back helps :lol:
 
In Forza the AI cars just seem intent on barging you out of the way at every opportunity. It's a bit annoying sometimes but I usually find that ramming them back helps :lol:

That actually really does help. Or I let off the brakes and just let them fly off the track, that's pretty funny as well.

The past 2 season's i've been able to win fairly easily in the R3 division. I'm now on season 6 or 7.
 
The A.I rubberbanding is absolutely ridiculous in this game. I'm a pretty consistent driver, meaning I put in laps that are usually within 0.5-1s of each other. When I'm in the bottom half of the field I catch up to everyone insanely quickly. I take first place and leave the guy in 2nd behind by about 2-3s. But by the last lap of the race I'm fighting to keep 1st and sometimes fight to keep 2nd....


I'm doing the same lap times, so what else can be the cause of this?
 
There was one race in Semi-Pro that gave me a challenge, but after 2 retries I beat it.
Now in professional, too bad I don't have enough time to play.. :(
 
I'm doing the same lap times, so what else can be the cause of this?

The AI does a lot of fighting with each other. Until they've settled into a formation that mirrors their actualy pace. As soon as they stop interferring with each other, they'll start to show how fast they are. This usually takes about two or three laps, at least.

So, if you want a real idea of how good you are compared to the AI, you need to run some races that last for five or, ideally, more laps. Once they do settle on an order that replicates their capabilities, their lap times are pretty consisten, whether you're in front of the AI or chasing them.
 
I nearly had an aneurysm earlier today with the Motegi round of the Elise 111S championship. :mad: Not only were the leading AI running away from me, but the car decided to find the most inconvenient to understeer into the gravel. :mad:
 
Forza indeed has rubberband AI in World Tour. It may not use rubberbanding on the highest level (last season) but it does have it. I've in season 6 and the AI still heavily use rubberbanding. The AI fastest lap will vary by 10 seconds depending on my position.

I decided to test this and yeah, it's ********.

When in last place, M.Rossi's lap time was 1:58.0. When leading by a huge margin, M.Rossi's lap time was 1:57.8. (Tested A class world tour @ Hockenheim. Expert difficulty)

Forza A.I doesn't rubber band. Anything that you might see as rubber banding is just the A.I being more human than ever.

p.s If you don't like the A.I "dive bombing" you, give them racing room like you should.
 
...
I was very close to turning on the computer and selling the game, or ranting off about it like this. Until i discovered that you could turn down the AI difficulty in Event Mode. So now i am going to do the entire game in this mode, as it appears to be the only way i can race fairly/realisticly with other AI cars.
...

...
I'm just used to winning every single race in every car game i play, its been this way since 1995 or so....
.

No, i mustn't be then. Getting 100% in every other Forza game (including all the achievements in FM3 and all but two online ones in FM2) musta been a fluke. :rolleyes:
...

This has me confused... You turned down the AI competition as it is "then only way i can race fairly/realisticly...". It isn't realistic to win every race!

And then are claiming some type of vitual racing superiority by always winning. Think about it, anyone can win 100% of the time if you play games on the easier settings.

What many of us like about Forza 4 IS for it's gererally realistic experience. You are clearly looking for an arcade racer, or, a very easy realistic game. Believe it or not, many virtual "sim" racers (talking for myself) don't even know/care about trophies/achivements. We are racers first and foremost - it's all about the racing.
 
I decided to test this and yeah, it's ********.

When in last place, M.Rossi's lap time was 1:58.0. When leading by a huge margin, M.Rossi's lap time was 1:57.8. (Tested A class world tour @ Hockenheim. Expert difficulty)

Forza A.I doesn't rubber band. Anything that you might see as rubber banding is just the A.I being more human than ever.

p.s If you don't like the A.I "dive bombing" you, give them racing room like you should.

World Tour , Professional season (6) at Mugello circult. Class A (Expert difficulty= no aids)
1) pull off the road to time the leader (Rossi) AI first lap = 2:39.058
2) Take the lead after the second corner Rossi first lap = 2:21.643.
That's a huge 17 seconds difference. I've notice too many times it's so easy to pass the AI then watch them speed up behind me.

P.S what does "dive bombing" or "give them room" has to do with rubberband AI?
 
Couple of tricks I have learned in dealing with the AI:

1- If you are on a 2 lap race, it is sometimes best to "grind" your way through the pack in the first turn. Which seems to be the most chaotic because every driver is fighting for position. If you need to, use the grass and bumpers to your advantage. The AI will not give up position here and will block and push you put of the way.

2- Take your time on anything above 3 laps. If you can, pick up a position or two in the first turn by taking the outside line and powering past the slower moving traffic. They will not give up the inside. And neither should you; 9 times out of 10 they will pass on the inside. So do not give up the inside line.

3- As mentioned earlier, if you are being rammed than you are most likely braking too early. The AI seems to brake early as well, which means you are braking EXTREMELY too early. Use late braking techniques to gain position if the inside line of a corner is open. Remember, races are won in the braking zone. The AI will occasionally completely miss their braking point , go flying off the track, or brake in places that are not necessary. They mainly miss their braking point only if they are a position or two in front of you, allowing you to pick up a position; a handful of times I have been rammed from behind by AI that have missed their braking point, but it was nothing I could not recover from. Familiarize yourself with these points on the track and it will be a much smoother experience.

4- Expect utter chaos the first 20-30 seconds of each race. As my signature says: "Someone forgot to tell the 🤬 AI the finish line isn't at the end of turn 1."
 
You do notice that doesnt prove your skill level since you can complete fm3 with full aids etc, the best gauge is to hit rivals mode and see where you end up. the ai in grand tour mode isnt at full strength before semi pro season, so if you struggle before than theres is a lot to be desired.
I've done a few races in rivals mode already and not finding them too hard, challenging yes. At least the ghost cars don't ram into you. And i know people who haven't got the skills to complete any Forza game let alone get all the achievements, so you can't say 'clearly you are not skilled' because it isn't correct.

But as much as i'd like to keep talking about my skills with the game (...), this isn't what the topic is about. It is about the AI's performance differences from race to race, which clearly is happening to some people and not others.

This has me confused... You turned down the AI competition as it is "then only way i can race fairly/realisticly...". It isn't realistic to win every race!
I turned off the 'AI upgrades' and whatever the other options are for AI difficulty in Event List.
I like racing standard cars against other standard cars, in GT as well. I usually only upgrade cars if the other cars are getting away from me and i can't do anything about it. Which is logical.

In a way it seems the game uses a 'ballast' system. Depending on how your last race was, the AI difficulty changes and your own car seems to perform worse/better. But to be realistic, the AI difficulty should not change - only the weight of your own car (a proper ballast system in otherwords) should be affected. Boosting the AI's performance is arcadey sorry. Not to mention the super stopping power of sand traps, grass verges etc - i understand why there are there, but there are much better/realistic alternatives.

And then are claiming some type of vitual racing superiority by always winning. Think about it, anyone can win 100% of the time if you play games on the easier settings.
Whats wrong with winning? I didn't exactly say it was easy going to try win every race in the car games i play, quite often i restart/re-try the race to get the win.
And by 'winning every single race' i meant eventually winning every one. I don't like seeing race events where i got second or third, so always try go back and win the race. I'm quite pedantic sometimes.

I don't go for the easiest settings first off in games either. I completed Battlefield Bad Company 1 and a few Call of Duty games on harder/the hardest setting (as, no doubt, a lot of others have) the very first time i played them (going by the theory that once i played it on the hardest difficulty it would make it a lot easier going through it a second time, which proved true obviously).

What many of us like about Forza 4 IS for it's gererally realistic experience. You are clearly looking for an arcade racer, or, a very easy realistic game. Believe it or not, many virtual "sim" racers (talking for myself) don't even know/care about trophies/achivements. We are racers first and foremost - it's all about the racing.
I'm not looking for an arcade racer thank you very much, i don't like them because they are 'arcadey'. Last Need 4 Speed game i properly played was the first NFS Underground, and only got about quarter of the way through until i stopped playing and went back to Gran Turismo.

And i'm not a 'trophy hunter' in that sense, i don't actively go out of my way to rent every game possible just to get the trophies/achievements (although when i do play games i try get as many as possible, usually on the second playthrough or once the main part of the game is complete).
I play racing games to have races, i enjoy long battles for the lead/to keep the lead, but in these days of cheating AI (or where the game makes your car handle worse depending on how you perform) it's not as easy/fun and ruins the experience for me.

The Polyphony Digital Cup in Gran Turismo 3 remains one of my most favourite race events out of every car game i've ever played. None of the AI cars 'cheated' and were all stock standard versions. The races were half an hour long each and the fun part was seeing if you could win the race in a car that is not as great in performance as the front runners. In these events i had to time my pit stops exactly right to stay in the lead. This is the sort of racing i love.

I'm not going to discuss my skills with this, or any other game, in this topic again, because it is about the AI in Forza 4 and not my skill level. Clear? :banghead:
 
World Tour , Professional season (6) at Mugello circult. Class A (Expert difficulty= no aids)
1) pull off the road to time the leader (Rossi) AI first lap = 2:39.058
2) Take the lead after the second corner Rossi first lap = 2:21.643.
That's a huge 17 seconds difference. I've notice too many times it's so easy to pass the AI then watch them speed up behind me.

P.S what does "dive bombing" or "give them room" has to do with rubberband AI?

Did you happen to pay attention to what actually happened to the A.I?

Both of my tests rossi got away clean on the first corner and had 5 laps to build up a lap time. I didn't just go by what his very first standing start lap time was without even seeing what happened to him.

i enjoy long battles for the lead/to keep the lead, but in these days of cheating AI (or where the game makes your car handle worse depending on how you perform) it's not as easy/fun and ruins the experience for me.

Yeah, that doesn't happen in Forza. The A.I don't get magic grip and power...
 
Did you happen to pay attention to what actually happened to the A.I?

Both of my tests rossi got away clean on the first corner and had 5 laps to build up a lap time. I didn't just go by what his very first standing start lap time was without even seeing what happened to him.
The race I mention in the first post that was a 10 second difference at Pro season was a five lap race. I had a phone call right at the beginning of race and decide to play catch up (knew about the rubberband AI) with the AI over a half lap ahead. I end up finishing in second. Rossi fastest lap was something like 1:37. I restart the race and took the lead early. Rossi fastest lap was 1:27. A 10 second difference.

P.S Just tried Maple Valley Raceway (full reverse), WT season 6 (pro), 3 laps, S class:

1) let the AI get over a half lap lead . Rossi best lap time = 2:04.384 Total time = 6:17.256
I caught up with the end of the pack at the end. If there were 5 laps I could have won.

restart:
2) took the lead in the first half of lap 1. Rossi first lap time was 1:54.424. Best lap= 1:49.115
total time= 5:37.170 = 40 seconds difference
 
So why then can you turn off 'AI upgrades' in Event Tour mode? Why are so many other people around the net saying the same thing?

Perhaps there are some of us with faulty games then, hmm? :rolleyes:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/4892293.aspx

I'll let this go as I do understand everyone looks for something different in a game. But, I don't see the AI "cheating" as you would say it. They do adjust to your cars capibilities but that is something I like (just me). I have had some very good races with the AI but they're not perfect.
You must LOVE the AI in GT5. In GT5 upgrading your car makes it WAY to easy. I am a pretty average driver and I can beat those guys in my sleep.
 
Actually, I find th AI in FM4 to be very human-like (apart for the rubberbanding). And yes it means it can be a PITA to race against sometimes. Some kind of aggressiveness level setting would be welcomed.
 
With all due respect, can you upload a few replays so we can maybe give you some pointers as to why the ai are beating you. As I have said im not the fastest person around but might be able to give some insight that will help you along. If you already have done so, thats my bad, I havent read every post.
 
I'll let this go as I do understand everyone looks for something different in a game. But, I don't see the AI "cheating" as you would say it. They do adjust to your cars capibilities but that is something I like (just me). I have had some very good races with the AI but they're not perfect.
You must LOVE the AI in GT5. In GT5 upgrading your car makes it WAY to easy. I am a pretty average driver and I can beat those guys in my sleep.
It just makes it an arcadey experience really, which is what i'm not liking about it. Ditto with the penalties. There are different ways to go about competitive Ai and corner cutters, but they seem to choose the easy route.

I'm not sure how many races in GT5 i've used upgraded cars with as only have three enduros to go and i'll get the Platinum trophy (can't remember most of the other races as haven't played it in a month or two). I know i did the Nurburgring 4 hour with a stock standard car and that was a lot of fun.

I do prefer the AI in GT5 as they don't ram into you in every corner (i brake as late as i can in all car games too) and seem to show a little more intelligence than what i've seen so far in FM3.

Will try get my fiance to film me (with her cell phone) when i play the game next and then chuck it up on my YouTube account. Thats if i can replicate the AI getting way ahead of me on the straights etc. Murphy's Law says i won't while i'm trying to film it.
 
Ok, explain this then. Lap times when I'm in first and lap times when I'm in last. When I was 8th I still raced, I just made sure to be behind everyone..

I'm sorry but 5s a lap is rubberbanding

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P.S. sorry for the huge images
 
Another thing; do the AI ever make mistakes in this game? I've not seen a single mistake from an AI driver yet and I'm on level 8 or so.
 
The only difference I got was .2 of a second.

Perhaps since I don't lose to the A.I mine is at the highest it can go (yet still too slow).
 
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