'Cheating' AI in World Tour mode...

Thank You
Rubberbanding is simply the AI slows down when you are behind them and speed up when you are ahead like there is an invisible rubberband attach to your car and the AI. Dynamic AI could refer to the AI adjust it's speed accounting to your past lap time at that track but doesn't slow down or speed up during the race. A good example of Dynamic AI would be NR2003. (it also had the rubberband option)
I like NR2003 dymamic AI but hated it's rubberband AI option.

P.S Always with rubberband AI the first few laps doesn't matter that much only the last few do.
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Yup, this 👍
 
HBK
Yup, this 👍
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Well, I'll have to adjust my expectations of rubber banding being a bad thing to being just normal then.

Over the years, rubber-banding has been seen as the scourge of AI, making it futile to be in the lead sometimes when the rest of the field have this artificial, physics defying boost.. but clearly some people think it just refers to any dynamically behaving AI, I can live with that.

:)
 
SuperCobraJet
Unfortunately, during the quest for next gen lighting, graphics and physics realism, the AI and race structure has remained an archaic arcade arrangement.

Its past time for this universal start in the back of field crap on every race, to be mothballed.

Talk about unrealistic!

There is no racing on earth that one guy is doomed to the rear every race.

Thats why there's "qualifying". Oh wow, what a innovative concept, its only been around over a hundred years.

If you want a few races where you start in the back of the field, leave a few, but not all the races.

Archaic rubber-banding AI needs to be scrapped as well.

(end of rant)
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Are you sure about that? Go to Wikipedia, no, better still... Find an F1 scoreboard for either this year or last with quali results, and look for one Vitantonio Liuzzi.

Tell me what you discover. :lol:
 
PzR Crazy
Well, I'll have to adjust my expectations of rubber banding being a bad thing to being just normal then.

Over the years, rubber-banding has been seen as the scourge of AI, making it futile to be in the lead sometimes when the rest of the field have this artificial, physics defying boost.. but clearly some people think it just refers to any dynamically behaving AI, I can live with that.

:)
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Rubberbanding is fine in arcade games, it keeps the race "dynamic".

It's not in "sim" games, as it's completely unrealistic (even if the AI does not break the laws of physics) and it defeats the purpose of racing as you only have to perform well near the end of the race (as explained before).
 
Personally, I don't like winning ALL the time. It becomes boring. I much prefer a good challenge, even if I come in 3rd or 4th.
 
Terronium-12
Are you sure about that? Go to Wikipedia, no, better still... Find an F1 scoreboard for either this year or last with quali results, and look for one Vitantonio Liuzzi.

Tell me what you discover. :lol:
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Vitantonio Liuzzi may start in the rear of the field, because he failed to qualify well, but at least he is given the opportunity to do so.

The vast majority in racing are afforded the same.

So should we.

It is wholly unrealistic not to do so.

Again, start in the rear of the field, and rubberband AI are archaic arcade concepts from the earliest racing games,
and sorely in need of more realistic next - gen changes.
 
HBK
Rubberbanding is fine in arcade games, it keeps the race "dynamic".

It's not in "sim" games, as it's completely unrealistic (even if the AI does not break the laws of physics) and it defeats the purpose of racing as you only have to perform well near the end of the race (as explained before).
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Any 'game' with AI has various mechanisms for difficulty.. assists, AI difficulty level, ability to bring a Supercar to a supermini event, you name it, all these games do it, it's not a hardcore 'sim', which is par for the course on consoles..

The attempt is to keep the AI as competitive as possible, it has nothing to do with 'sim' or 'arcade'..

If when you had an identical car to the AI, and you where a top notch driver, and you found that the AI would win because their supposedly identical car had more grip/top speed then yours, then I'd be far more concerned about it..

End of the day if the AI only slows down for slower drivers to keep them engaged, I am not concerned about it.. how does it affect me as a gamer? I will ultimately be as challenged by the AI as they can be.. if I'm super fast, I expect to outpace the AI no matter what, I'd have to resort to the usual tricks of choosing underpowered cars etc.

The more interesting feature was supposed to be 'dynamically upgrading AI', where they'd upgrade their cars to top of the class to help them gain some ground back on you.. However, this is almost rendered useless since every gift car is pre-upgraded to the class limit anyway.. seems to be a shoot yourself in the foot moment!

Isn't doing events via the event list using more traditional fixed AI? That's where you get the classic 'easy->hard option'? If people are really upset by the AI, perhaps they can try that method and see if it appeals to them better?
 
LickitySplit
There is nothing like the rubberbanding in GT5 that makes your car perform worse and others better.
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I'm not sure about this.

I don't think there is rubberbanding AI in GT5, but I haven't run races to specifically test it.

Having run several races in GT4 many times, there was no rubberbanding in those.
There were several AI pace scenarios and you drew one every race.
The total race time would vary a few seconds between them depending on the length of the race, but they would always be the same, regaurdless of where you ran.
 
PzR Crazy
The more interesting feature was supposed to be 'dynamically upgrading AI', where they'd upgrade their cars to top of the class to help them gain some ground back on you.. However, this is almost rendered useless since every gift car is pre-upgraded to the class limit anyway.. seems to be a shoot yourself in the foot moment!
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You seem to be confusing two things.

1/ In FM4, all AI use upgraded cars (if the player allows it). This option has been introduced in order to level the playing field. As the player can use upgraded cars, so can the AI.

2/ In World Tour mode, the AI skill level (which can be chosen in Event List mode) is supposed to adapt to the player skill level based on previous performance.

And neither of those options are relevant to rubberbanding, which seems to be present at all difficulty levels, albeit less prevalent at higher difficulty levels.
 
The good news is that if you lose a race in the world tour you can just redo that race in the event playlist. Plus in the event playlist you can set the difficulty to whatever you want.
 
HBK
You seem to be confusing two things.

1/ In FM4, all AI use upgraded cars (if the player allows it). This option has been introduced in order to level the playing field. As the player can use upgraded cars, so can the AI.

2/ In World Tour mode, the AI skill level (which can be chosen in Event List mode) is supposed to adapt to the player skill level based on previous performance.

And neither of those options are relevant to rubberbanding, which seems to be present at all difficulty levels, albeit less prevalent at higher difficulty levels.
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I'm not confusing anything (despite how it looks ;)) I was adding the other dynamic AI feature in the context of being given pre-tuned gift cars + good driver = no net gain as a point of AI discussion, not thinking it's rubber banding.. :)

Anyway, lets ignore that for a minute, and talk 'rubber banding'..

I've just done some tests to see how the AI behave in the various scenario's

Car: Pantera De Tomaso C425 (Gifted by levelling up)
Track: Burnese Alps
Race: World Tour C Class 3 laps
AI State: Should be at it's highest (Level 34, finishing 1st in all races)

Scenario A - Flat out from start to finish - I'm about 4-5 seconds a lap faster, and obviously win by some margin.
AI Times Lap 2: lead car 2:10/2:11, ranging to 2:14/2:15
AI Times Lap 3: doesn't record as I'm in 1st, laps times are frozen to the previous lap in the results page.

Scenario B - Tail the cars in 10th Place, keeping about 1/2 of the track behind them for the entire race
AI Times Lap 2: cars 1-4, 2:10 -2:14 then 5-9 2:18-2:22
AI Times Lap 3: cars 1-4, 2:10 -2:14 then 5-9 2:18-2:22

Scenario C - Tail the cars in last place but only 1-2 car lengths behind, then nail it on the last lap and see how many places I can make up (Deliberate sandbagging)
AI Times Lap 2: cars 1-9 2:10-2:18
AI Times Lap 3: All cars 2:10-2:15, I manage 6th (5 second quicker lap)

Scenario D - Keep mid pack (5th) and sandbag until the last lap..
AI Times Lap 2: cars 1-9 2:10-2:15
AI Times Lap 3: cars 1-9, 2:10-2:15 (I Just scrape 1st)

I had some variance in lap times, occasionally the AI on the first lap really fight it out, and can vary by 2-3 seconds, lap 2 onwards is generally more stable, but you do find some variance if running midpack. I ran the scenario's 3-4 times each to ensure the general behaviour was found.

Conclusion:

As long as you are within about 1/2 a lap of the cars, the lead car(s) go flatout no matter what.
If you tail the pack, the lead cars are flat-out but half the field will slow and stretch out a bit to give you a fighting chance, but you can't sandbag, because all usable scenarios of sandbagging, the lead cars have been flat out, and the rest of the field pick up the pace immediately you start progressing.

Considering the lead cars don't change their pace appreciably, it's only the second half of the field that tend to spread out if you are quite far back or tailing in last place and not challenging.. As soon as you challenge, they are back to full speed immediately.

To me, this is a far more subtle form of dynamic AI then plain old rubber banding, and I don't have any major issues with it's mechanics, especially in terms of 'sim' or 'arcade' references..
 
PzR Crazy
...
AI State: Should be at it's highest (Level 34, finishing 1st in all races) ...
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If this is true then rubberbanding is removed at the highest level (Pro) just like Forza 3. The same rubberbanding is removed in GT5 in seasonal and endurance races. Are you sure it goes by your level instead of which season you are in?
 
PzR Crazy
I'm not confusing anything (despite how it looks ;)) I was adding the other dynamic AI feature in the context of being given pre-tuned gift cars + good driver = no net gain as a point of AI discussion, not thinking it's rubber banding.. :)
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Nice testing you did there 👍

According to various Turn10 statements, there shouldn't be rubberbanding at higher difficulty levels. And going by your test results, it looks like it's true.

And from what I've seen so far, I can confirm there is rubberbanding at lower difficulty levels.
 
Thank You
If this is true then rubberbanding is removed at the highest level (Pro) just like Forza 3. The same rubberbanding is removed in GT5 in seasonal and endurance races. Are you sure it goes by your level instead of which season you are in?
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The way the AI seems to operate, I think it stays 'dynamic' all the time, there is no real need for it not to, if the journey through word tour with your finishing position possibly altering the base AI level and AI auto upgrade levels, the dynamic behaviour as I observed in-race would seem appropriate to always be active.

I could repeat some tests on the kids Xbox, they are very much on the easiest settings and only level 4. I'll have a look tomorrow. :)
 
Strangely enough everything has gotten much easier since i created this topic. Only lost about four races or so and am now up to the third (?) last difficulty level (19 races).
 
Moglet
I've not seen any of mine make a single mistake yet! They just follow a really strict line and bash you out of the way if you try and enter a corner at their side. It feels like GT4 :(
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What settings are you using? I've always used expert difficulty for this game and that's the level they are making mistakes. I've even been t-boned a couple of times from cars flying backward into a chicane.
 
I don't know, rubberbanding not being active at higher difficulty levels seems like a logical idea. That'd be why I never noticed it (level 44, Championship Season, finished all races in first place).

However, I too noticed that the diffculty varies a lot across different classes. B Class and below are always a breeze, whether I know the car and track or not. A and S Class can get pretty challenging, at times, but R3 (highest class I've run race in World Tour in yet) has been insanely easy again. I was keeping up with the R2 cars in that multi class race around Laguna Seca.

So, a lot of possible reasons for people to experience the AI differently, I suppose.
 
Luminis
I don't know, rubberbanding not being active at higher difficulty levels seems like a logical idea. That'd be why I never noticed it (level 44, Championship Season, finished all races in first place).

However, I too noticed that the diffculty varies a lot across different classes. B Class and below are always a breeze, whether I know the car and track or not. A and S Class can get pretty challenging, at times, but R3 (highest class I've run race in World Tour in yet) has been insanely easy again. I was keeping up with the R2 cars in that multi class race around Laguna Seca.

So, a lot of possible reasons for people to experience the AI differently, I suppose.
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I noticed that the street car racing was a lot more difficult than the R class events. I walk all over the AI in R3 - R1 but then I really struggle to gain any sort of advantage in the S and below classes, aside from E and F which are a breeze.
 
A.I has a max of 12 cars a race (11 A.I) because they require all the physics and A.I have to be calculated locally. In multiplayer there is no A.I and you only calculate your own physics.
 
12 is the maximum you'll get in World Tour. Forza doesn't do more than 11 AI cars on the track, as far as I know.

Tree'd...
 
Well, I did the same kind of tests as on the previous page on the kids FM4, they are very much on the easiest difficulty and only a few races in.

It's not too dissimilar in how it seems to work..

If you are there or there abouts near/in the pack, the lead AI car always posts the same laptimes.. The rest of the field will space out if I hang behind the pack, and only if I park up/get 1/2 a track length behind does the spacing cause huge lap time differences..

What I can say is how random AI behaviour is, just trailing the pack for 3 laps is so random, sometimes they have major crashes and lots of stupid overtaking going on etc..
 
kamuifanboy
I noticed that the street car racing was a lot more difficult than the R class events. I walk all over the AI in R3 - R1 but then I really struggle to gain any sort of advantage in the S and below classes, aside from E and F which are a breeze.
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All cars within a given class are not created equal.

Much like FM3 there are certain cars which are much better than others and some better at certain tracks.
Having to start in the back, accel is always important and critical in some races.

My most difficult races so far have been in World Tour R3, trying to run the Ford GT Mk7 against the Ferrari 430.
At Hockingheim winning was tough but doable.
At Silverstone it was practically impossible. Had to resort to turning Sim damage off and rewind on.
It wasn't pretty but I managed to win it.
The 430 race car is way to superior within this class.
Maybe that was a prerequisite for Ferrari to be in the game.
 
Finished World Tour mode last night and it did get easier towards the end - quite often i was driving really slowly so the AI could catch up. Weird. :/

All that though, and am only 8% through the game...

What a bloody waste of time - T10 really need to overhaul World Tour mode, or how the races are done in the game.
 

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