Chemtrails or Contrails?

[Dotini]

I have seen contrails, or chemtrails or whatever they are, coalesce into clouds in what was otherwise a cloudless sky.

In the days after 9/11/01, when all airplane traffic was grounded, the skies over the US cleared up to an almost totally cloudless state.

There is no doubt that airplane traffic causes clouds to form.

Clouds reflect heat back into space. Clouds also cause cities to stay cooler in the daytime.

If in fact there is such a thing as global warming, it would not surprise me if an agency of the government took it upon itself to do something about it in a covert fashion.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[gary31]

Hey i totaly agree with og_wretch. he even gives a breif explanation of what is happening. you can see this effect on the rear wings of F1 cars in the right conditions.

So we should be wary of people that can make a valid case why this is 'fake'? Or should we listen to your conspiracy theory ramblings?

 

[Alex p.]

Hey i totaly agree with og_wretch. he even gives a breif explanation of what is happening. you can see this effect on the rear wings of F1 cars in the right conditions.

So we should be wary of people that can make a valid case why this is 'fake'? Or should we listen to your conspiracy theory ramblings?

Haha the realm and level of fear and ignorance in here is almost devestating, intimidating and absolutely mindblowing, I have a very hard time writing right now, as it also is extremely discouraging.

And yes, please watch out for the conspiracy nuts like me, as our great great scientist Famine put it on the first page of this thread and just stop listen to my "conspiray theory rambling", you may get hurt or die and besides, it's a complete waste of time, right?

If in fact there is such a thing as global warming, it would not surprise me if an agency of the government took it upon itself to do something about it in a covert fashion.i

It is not about the protection from global warming, far from it, that is their excuse, or that will be one of their excuses, IF this topic should get a "widespread" (yes pun intended) attention in the mainstream media, which will not happen anyway, I believe at least.

 

[Duke]

Besides, these trails and grids are concentrated over highly-populated areas, such as cities, but rarely or never seen over "land".

So, how many large-aircraft, large-volume airports are there located in or near large population centers (in other words, cities)? And how many large-aircraft, large-volume airports are located in the middle of nowhere?

Do you think there just MIGHT be a correlation between the number of large-aircraft flights originating from and terminating at large-aircraft airports, which generally are correlated with large population centers for the sake of travel efficiency?

Hmmmm. Coincidence? I think not. Where is air traffic most dense? Near airports. Where are airports most often located? Near big population centers. Give a look into the concept of Occam's Razor and get back to us.

What you seem to be saying is similar to theorizing that the government is targeting vehicle drivers because most accidents occur at major intersections, and major intersections are suspiciously located in big cities so They can kill more drivers. The correlation is logically possible but entirely reversed from reality.

 

[Alex p.]

So, how many large-aircraft, large-volume airports are there located in or near large population centers (in other words, cities)? And how many large-aircraft, large-volume airports are located in the middle of nowhere?

Do you think there just MIGHT be a correlation between the number of large-aircraft flights originating from and terminating at large-aircraft airports, which generally are correlated with large population centers for the sake of travel efficiency?

Hmmmm. Coincidence? I think not.

What you seem to be saying is similar to theorizing that the government is targeting vehicle drivers because most accidents occur at major intersections, and major intersections are suspiciously located in big cities so They can kill more drivers. The correlation is logically possible but entirely reversed from reality.

I knew someone would come up with this argument and it is a very reasonable one, as it is built upon logic. Problem is, when the condition of the atmosphere cause these long trails, why only over highly populated areas, do you get the point now? Outer atmosphere photographs show that these trails are almost only seen over cities, but not over the oceans, although, OF COURSE, aircrafts are also flying there ALL THE TIME.
Good God people is it so hard to recongnize that?

Besides, contrails are getting bigger the colder it is, that means the higher the aircraft flies, logic tells you that the highest altitudes of commercial planes are reached over the ocean as there will be no airport to land and as there would be no need to fly at low altitudes.

And please just take a further look at the last two videos I posted, they explain a lot, no words needed. (Everybody is meant btw., not only Duke.)

BY THE WAY: I would really appreciate it if nobody would quote me anymore, as I have no motivation to further discuss that publicly. I gave you the impuls to do the research, your choice not to dot it or to do it. If someone has question, pm me.

 

[Dotini]

http://www.trendhunter.com/trends/abu-dhabi-rain

The government of Abu Dhabi has installed ion generators which have recently caused numerous rainstorms, even hail and lightning in a desert which normally gets little or no rain. These devices appear to be far more effective than primitive seeding with dust and chemicals.

It is a legitimate interest of government and industry to modify Earthly weather for the sake of the economy. Science and technology gives them the tools to do this.

Respectfully submitted,
Dotini

 

[OG_Wretch]

Just exactly who is behind all this supposed spraying?

And if they control these jets to do this as they please then exactly what are you or even a million like you going to do about it?

You see there comes a point of diminishing returns and you have to decide
just exactly how you intend to spend what little time you have on this planet.

It is fun to go tilting at windmills but I'd rather think about the big picture and act locally toward the good and/or positive.
That means taking on exactly what I can make a difference with...
...namely, myself.

Want to make the World a better place?
Do it just like you would wash a bowl or cup.
Start cleaning on the inside and work your way to the outside.

Your perspective will change and suddenly what is really important will be revealed.

 

[Duke]

I knew someone would come up with this argument and it is a very reasonable one, as it is built upon logic. Problem is, when the condition of the atmosphere cause these long trails, why only over highly populated areas, do you get the point now? Outer atmosphere photographs show that these trails are almost only seen over cities, but not over the oceans, although, OF COURSE, aircrafts are also flying there ALL THE TIME.
Good God people is it so hard to recongnize that?

And please just take a further look at the last two videos I posted, they explain a lot, no words needed. (Everybody is meant btw., not only Duke.)

Do you understand what I mean by DENSITY? They show up more over cities because more airplanes fly closer together near airports. Airports are near cities. Why is that hard to grasp? Once you get out away from major population centers, the aircraft paths spread out, and so do the contrails. They don't DISAPPEAR - they just get spread out more and farther apart and therefore harder to see.

I grew up in the middle of nowhere, in the early '70s. Individual high-flying aircraft left contrails over my house all the time even though I was nowhere NEAR any airport or city, in whatever direction they happened to be flying. This is such a ludicrous issue.

 

[Exorcet]

Is that, that commercial fly routes resemble perfect grids?...

Yes. They don't let pilots takeoff and go any random direction. Plane crashes are bad.

 

[Alex p.]

1Do you understand what I mean by DENSITY? They show up more over cities because more airplanes fly closer together near airports. Airports are near cities. Why is that hard to grasp? Once you get out away from major population centers, the aircraft paths spread out, and so do the contrails. They don't DISAPPEAR - they just get spread out more and farther apart and therefore harder to see.

I grew up in the middle of nowhere, in the early '70s. Individual high-flying aircraft left contrails over my house all the time even though I was nowhere NEAR any airport or city, in whatever direction they happened to be flying. 2.This is such a ludicrous issue.

1. Yes I do very much understand that, you simply do not understand my point.

2.You made your choice.

3.Any other quotes will not me answered from me, as I said, pm me.

Oh and by the way, you have proven to me that you did not watch the videos, which are clearly evidence. Ignorance is indeed a bliss.

 

[Dotini]

Government wrong-doing is no laughing matter. It's alright for people to be a bit hypersensitive about this. In the past, the US government has done some very bad things:
- As a test, exploded atomic bombs in the atmosphere over Utah sheep ranges.
- As a test, spread contagious diseases in major urban areas including New York City and San Franciso.
- As a test, subjected unwitting people to doses of LSD.
- As a test, withheld treatment for syphilis while pretending to treat numbers of people.

Respectfully,
Dotini

 

[Exorcet]

Oh and by the way, you have proven to me that you did not watch the videos, which are clearly evidence. Ignorance is indeed a bliss.

If they were evidence, maybe they'd be believed. I've watched them as well (the first one entirely,parts of the other two, and many more since this topic is in more than one place on the internet), I didn't see anything convincing.

BTW, the "chemtrails" from the tails (not engines) are easily explained.

http://boe787.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/blowing-hot-smoke/

EDIT

Well, going back to rewatch the videos for supposed evidence, and I see they claim that there are chemicals in the APU.

3:18 in "If You Don't Believe Chemtrails after this video,You're An Idiot (ITA_ENG)"

Is great evidence showing that contrails can vary over short distances. The two engines on the same plane are leaving different contrails, so the conditions between the engines are different enough to produce different results, even over that ~50 ft span.

 

[Alex p.]

Dotini, thank you for your reasonable posting.

 

[Azuremen]

Dotini, thank you for your reasonable posting.

Of course you'd thank the other conspiracy theorist on the board.

Duke was absolutely right in everything he said. And you just disregard it because you assumed he didn't watch a video that has green screen action in it on YouTube (certainly compelling evidence if I've ever heard of any /sarcasm)

My father was a pilot for 50 years, and I've seen these contrails form up erratically due to a variety of reasons from thermal currents generated from surface conditions to just variations in the upper atmosphere's weather, which will lead to the random starts and stops of contrails. I grew up in a rural area and would see contrails quite often when jets would fly over head, and they would linger for an hour or more at times, other times vanish almost as fast as they formed.

And then you disregard the fully sound logic about population centers being the busiest hubs for airplanes, because that just is too logical.

If I may ask, what is you education and profession, so that I can understand why you are such an expert on matters such as these?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Easy, kids. This thread feels like a powder keg that's ready to blow.

 

[Azuremen]

Easy, kids. This thread feels like a powder keg that's ready to blow.

I think that may be due to a 4+ year old thread where the necromancer proceeds to call everyone puppets for using logic, but that could just be my take on it.

 

[Sureboss]

1. Yes I do very much understand that, you simply do not understand my point.

Do you understand your own point?

I've watched the video. It proves nothing, you're the one making a claim, can you prove that's a chemical compound being "sprayed" or that anything is being sprayed at all? Also love the completely unbiassed people doing the video! Great source of data.

As for why it goes on and off, change in engine power, various atmospheric conditions, etc. Sounds like Azureman knows more about that than I. No doubt if something was amiss with these Scientific observations one of the many actual Scientists on the board would correct it.

Though I feel this'll be like talking to a brick wall, so probably a wasted post.

 

[daan]

Oh noes. Lotus are killing us as well, the bastards!

 

[wfooshee]

Someone has uttlerly and completey failed to grasp the size of the planet they are trying to shade with this spraying. A contrail (woops - chemtrail) behind an aircraft might spread to a couple of hundred feet wide. It might stretch for (complete guess here) 5 miles before dissipating. If it was exactly 5 miles by 200 feet, it would cover (shade) the earth over an area of over half a million square feet! Holy cow!

Wait - - - wait - - - - half a million square feet. OK, that makes a pretty good sized shopping strip, but it's less than a fifth of a square mile.

The earth has almost 200 million square miles of surface, so put half of that on the sunward side, and that contrail has just shaded .0000001 % of the earth's sunlit surface.

OK, we need more planes, then. Anybody got 10 million airliners laying around somewhere?

 

[Duke]

I love the video still that is shown in one of the Youtube embeds above, which are clearly labelled CONTRAIL and CHEMTRAIL, and just as clearly radically different in both freshness and altitude...

 

[Dotini]

Someone has uttlerly and completey failed to grasp the size of the planet they are trying to shade with this spraying. A contrail (woops - chemtrail) behind an aircraft might spread to a couple of hundred feet wide. It might stretch for (complete guess here) 5 miles before dissipating. If it was exactly 5 miles by 200 feet, it would cover (shade) the earth over an area of over half a million square feet! Holy cow!

Wait - - - wait - - - - half a million square feet. OK, that makes a pretty good sized shopping strip, but it's less than a fifth of a square mile.

The earth has almost 200 million square miles of surface, so put half of that on the sunward side, and that contrail has just shaded .0000001 % of the earth's sunlit surface.

OK, we need more planes, then. Anybody got 10 million airliners laying around somewhere?

Photographs from orbit clearly show the US covered with contrails and the clouds they create the day before 9/11. Yet on the 2nd and 3rd day afterward, the continent was free of contrails and clouds.

Respectfully submitted, eager for correction,
Dotini

 

[Sureboss]

Well, you'd have a hard time showing the clouds created by contrails and those that aren't (obviously this can't be done on days when there are no planes in the sky). But aren't contrails supposed to form clouds sometimes, it's just water vapour after all, so I don't see your point.

 

[Dotini]

Well, you'd have a hard time showing the clouds created by contrails and those that aren't (obviously this can't be done on days when there are no planes in the sky). But aren't contrails supposed to form clouds sometimes, it's just water vapour after all, so I don't see your point.

My point is fairly subtle. Let's see if anyone agrees.

Clouds are a natural feature of the sky, of course. But it is known beyond any doubt that contrails can and do cause clouds to form. Before-and-after 9/11 photos prove this. Airplane traffic lanes crisscross the country and thousands of planes are flying in any given minute. So they make a significant effect on weather by this virtue of cloud formation. Also, there there are combustion exhaust residues in the contrails which have an affect on the atmosphere, particularly at high altitudes. Now, I deny "chemtrails" are a significant contributor to weather or anything else, simply because they haven't been proven or accepted as anything other than experiments, tests, or practices such as cloud-seeding, crop-dusting, firefighting, etc. But, bottom line, airplanes are a factor, one of many, in the environment. Airplanes are a symbol of national prestige, industry, commerce and freedom of travel. We want and need airplanes, but should be aware of their costs and effects on the environment.

Respectfully submitted, open to correction,
Dotini

 

[wfooshee]

Ya know, there are days when nearly the entire continental U.S. is clear of clouds, yet the planes were flying those days. Saying that 9/12/2001 was clear and thus proves a link is ludicrous at best. Cloud formation is something we explain with a science called meteoroly. You know: weather systems, movement of air masses, temperature and humidity gradients, crap like that.

Contrails are a completely natural phenomenon. OK, the water vapor that produces them is not "natural," it's part of the aircraft's exhaust gas, perhaps produced by the combustions process, perhaps merely ingested and passed through the engine (heated and cooled in the process.) But the condensation and freezing into crystals of that water vapor is completely and totally a function of air conditions: temperature, pressure, wind, etc. Sometimes conditions aren't right and no contrail forms. Sometimes a contrail forms and dissipates within seconds. Sometimes it forms and hangs for a good part of an hour.

Contrails have been around since aircraft routinely broke 20,000 feet. It doesn't take a jet to make one, either. Numerous photos exist of B-17s and B-24s over Europe, sporting contrails from each engine. The pilots would be in the unenviable position of flying high enough to leave contrails, a big arrow in the sky telling the Luftwaffe "Here we are!!!" or dropping low enough to leave clear air behind, yet be in easier reach of anti-air bombardment. Does anyone seriously mean for us to think that those guys were intentionally producing contrails????

Does anyone seriously mean for us to believe that we would allow a French or British aircraft to spray our country's atmoshpere with chemicals while delivering commercial passengers?

And what's with "They're only over populated areas!??!?!?" Transoceanic flights do make contrails. Period.

I'm "ignorant" because I refuse to believe the "evidence" of chemical spraying??!?!? No, I don't think so. I'm reasonably well educated, I have some understanding of how water works in the atmosphere, and I'm not going to buy into anything because the neenernets said it was so.

Ignorance is using fabricated video to "prove" that something sinister is occuring, and trying to claim, "Well, what else could it be???!?!!?" "Why doesn't it happen ALL the time??!" "Why does it stop and start??!??!?" "Huh? Huh? 'Splain that!!!!"

Well, we have, only to be called ignorant. So put on your foil cap, hide in the basement with your wireless Internet connection stolen from your neighbors, keep your pantry stocked and your guns loaded, and keep calling me ignorant. Me, I'm free to enjoy the sunshine, briefly interrupted as it may be from time to time by naturally occuring weather systems.

If I visit my boy in Hawaii and my airplane draws a line in the sky, please don't shoot it down. I really want to see Hawaii!

 

[BrutherSuperior]

My point is fairly subtle. Let's see if anyone agrees.

Clouds are a natural feature of the sky, of course. But it is known beyond any doubt that contrails can and do cause clouds to form. Before-and-after 9/11 photos prove this. Airplane traffic lanes crisscross the country and thousands of planes are flying in any given minute. So they make a significant effect on weather by this virtue of cloud formation.

Not really...

There's new theories that are being tested and these experiments are showing that cosmic rays may be the culprit when it comes to cloud cover. There's a correlation, but the propeller heads are trying to figure it if there's causation.

Cum hoc ergo propter hoc

...

Look into it if you live near a google. Personally, I think these kinds of things are exciting. For over a millennia, the world as we knew it was understood from Aristotle. Then a chap named 'Newton' came along and turned that on its head. Right now, we're in the infancy of understanding simple things like clouds and time through the eyes of the quantum world. Cool eh? A new dawn in the world of physics may turn a lot of things we 'knew' upside down.

 

[Alex p.]

I will try not to let discourage myself by gutless people and post information here, if I find it usefull. Here is a part of a weather moderating from German TV, where the weather man says the following from 0:55-1:00: "These snake like clouds you see here, are trails generated by military aircraft, so it has nothing really to do with real weather."



There are several other similar videos from American TV, where the weather guys say pretty much the same.

 

[OG_Wretch]

Just exactly who is behind all this supposed spraying?

And if they control these jets to do this as they please then exactly what are you or even a million like you going to do about it?

You see there comes a point of diminishing returns and you have to decide
just exactly how you intend to spend what little time you have on this planet.

It is fun to go tilting at windmills but I'd rather think about the big picture and act locally toward the good and/or positive.
That means taking on exactly what I can make a difference with...
...namely, myself.

Want to make the World a better place?
Do it just like you would wash a bowl or cup.
Start cleaning on the inside and work your way to the outside.

Your perspective will change and suddenly what is really important will be revealed.

???

 

[Alex p.]

???

What he means is basically this: "Don't give a **** about anything. Just be a good person."

I'm afraid that'll not be enough though.

Here is another video, in English.

 

[OG_Wretch]

What he means is basically this: "Don't give a **** about anything. Just be a good person."

I'm afraid that'll not be enough though.

Here is another video, in English.

What he means here is basically this: "Find something on the edge of reason and Foam at the moth about it until it stops. But only try to hurt the people who don't agree with you."

Not much fun having others put words in your mouth is it?

Thanks for not continuing to do that for me and I'll extend the same kindness.

Otherwise, do have fun with those Windmills, Herr Quixote.

 

[Alex p.]

What he means here is basically this: "Find something on the edge of reason and Foam at the moth about it until it stops. But only try to hurt the people who don't agree with you."

Not much fun having others put words in your mouth is it?

Thanks for not continuing to do that for me and I'll extend the same kindness.

Otherwise, do have fun with those Windmills, Herr Quixote.

I didn't even notice you quoted yourself. I guess you expect from me some answer to your question from the quoted post. I will not answer it here, and that is why:

BY THE WAY: I would really appreciate it if nobody would quote me anymore, as I have no motivation to further discuss that publicly. I gave you the impuls to do the research, your choice not to dot it or to do it. If someone has question, pm me.