Chemtrails or Contrails?

[Alex.]

I'm just going to stroll in and say if you walk to the back of a 747 at cruising altitude, look out the rear door window as far back as you can possibly squeeze your head, you will see the contrail begin to form in the wake of the plane. Discovered it on my way to California over Salt Lake city last year. Never realised you could actually see it from on board.

 

[Keef]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K9rXydMmfw

The spraying is real, wether you want it to be true or not, puppets.



I would like to have an explanation to that video please.

This is not a chemtrail.

Those four "sprayers" hanging off the wings are housing for flap and aileron actuators.

Contrails are caused by temperature differentials or pressure differentials. Engine exhaust can cause contrails when moisture in the hot engine exhaust comes in contact with the cooler surrounding air. At cruising altitude for airliners, there are often large areas of supercooled water vapor. It doesn't condense from the heat of the exhaust, but instead because this vapor comes in contact with material particles in the exhaust. It freezes on contact, forming contrails that are like cirrus clouds. Typically these engine contrails only happen at high altitudes where the air is extremely cold and supercooled water vapor is present.

The pressure differential between the top and bottom of the wings can also cause contrails, and that's what is happening in your video. As air flows over the top of the wing, it decreases in pressure, thereby also decreasing in temperature. If the temperature happens to drop below the dew point at that altitude, water vapor will condense and form a cloud. This type usually ends up creating the big fluffy contrails.

Depending on the makeup of the air mass a plane is flying through, contrails might only last for a few miles, or hundreds of miles.

Keep in mind that the weather man on the news only reports the weather on the ground, which matters to us. Look at it from an aviation perspective and you'll realize that weather doesn't only happen on the ground. Any pilot, especially those who fly often and at high altitudes, might as well be meteorologists themselves.

 

[Alex p.]

That is the most important part of a "chamtrail-series", it is the best series I watched concerning the topic.

 

[vfrmaverick]

This is not a chemtrail.

Those four "sprayers" hanging off the wings are housing for flap and aileron actuators.

Contrails are caused by temperature differentials or pressure differentials. Engine exhaust can cause contrails when moisture in the hot engine exhaust comes in contact with the cooler surrounding air. At cruising altitude for airliners, there are often large areas of supercooled water vapor. It doesn't condense from the heat of the exhaust, but instead because this vapor comes in contact with material particles in the exhaust. It freezes on contact, forming contrails that are like cirrus clouds. Typically these engine contrails only happen at high altitudes where the air is extremely cold and supercooled water vapor is present.

The pressure differential between the top and bottom of the wings can also cause contrails, and that's what is happening in your video. As air flows over the top of the wing, it decreases in pressure, thereby also decreasing in temperature. If the temperature happens to drop below the dew point at that altitude, water vapor will condense and form a cloud. This type usually ends up creating the big fluffy contrails.

Depending on the makeup of the air mass a plane is flying through, contrails might only last for a few miles, or hundreds of miles.

Keep in mind that the weather man on the news only reports the weather on the ground, which matters to us. Look at it from an aviation perspective and you'll realize that weather doesn't only happen on the ground. Any pilot, especially those who fly often and at high altitudes, might as well be meteorologists themselves.

On the flap actuator housings, here is an undershot

also condensation can form over the wings and on the wingtips if the atmospheric conditions are right. Im sure thats what is hapening in that video

 

[Azuremen]

That is the most important part of a "chamtrail-series", it is the best series I watched concerning the topic.

Clearly, a man with a degree in Speech and author of several conspiracy theory books is reputable, along with a US Forestry agent. And a guy talking about how the sky is "dirty" over an artificial lake.

I didn't even notice you quoted yourself. I guess you expect from me some answer to your question from the quoted post. I will not answer it here, and that is why:

And I just noticed this. Wow, so you just want to post "research" and then not actually discuss it. Then what is the point of what you are doing on a board made for discussion?

 

[Alex p.]

Clearly, a man with a degree in Speech and author of several conspiracy theory books is reputable, along with a US Forestry agent. And a guy talking about how the sky is "dirty" over an artificial lake.
And I just noticed this. Wow, so you just want to post "research" and then not actually discuss it. Then what is the point of what you are doing on a board made for discussion?

In the case you missed it. People don't like being insulted and ridiculed and therefore the motivation to discuss could be extremely low.
You are one of the last ones I want to talk to and I don't understand why you attack me all the time, instead of ignoring what I post. Shows what a character you are. I really simply do not understand what it gives you, a personal satisfaction?
If you think all of what I am posting is rubbish, keep it for yourself or post it in a normal matter, instead of attacking somebody in stupid hate and rage.

Sometimes it's really hard not to dislike somebody...

 

[Duke]

If you think all of what I am posting is rubbish, keep it for yourself or post it in a normal matter, instead of attacking somebody in stupid hate and rage.

Sometimes it's really hard not to dislike somebody...

If you feel you are being attacked with "stupid hate and rage" because we are discrediting a bunch of half-baked Youtube conspiracy theorists, then perhaps the Opinions Board is not the place for you. There's no way anyone is going to - or should - let you get away with posting these outrageous assertions without being required to defend them. That's what debate is all about. If you are embarassed and offended by having to defend your thoughts, then perhaps you should rethink them.

If you ARE actually being attacked, feel free to use the Report button to alert the staff.

 

[Alex p.]

If you feel you are being attacked with "stupid hate and rage" because we are discrediting a bunch of half-baked Youtube conspiracy theorists, then perhaps the Opinions Board is not the place for you. There's no way anyone is going to - or should - let you get away with posting these outrageous assertions without being required to defend them. That's what debate is all about. If you are embarassed and offended by having to defend your thoughts, then perhaps you should rethink them.

If you ARE actually being attacked, feel free to use the Report button to alert the staff.

Examplery behaviour Duke, as always. 👍 No worrys, I will not molest you or any others here anymore, poor guy.

 

[birksy82]

Let me get this straight, the governments of this world are spraying the earth with chemicals for reasons unknown?

One theory is that they are doing this to kill us off. The people behind this also live on this earth so they would be killing themselves too 💡, it doesn't make sense to me for this reason, what other reasons are there for them to be doing this?

I'm in no doubt that the governments have done and still do things that we don't know about, we probably will never know.

I love how conspiracy theory believers accuse non believers of being puppets or sheep, when in fact they could be just that for believing these stories which could well have been put out there by the governments to aid in covering up the things that are really happening.


Just my 2 cents/pence.

 

[Alex p.]

Let me get this straight, the governments of this world are spraying the earth with chemicals for reasons unknown?

One theory is that they are doing this to kill us off. The people behind this also live on this earth so they would be killing themselves too 💡, it doesn't make sense to me for this reason, what other reasons are there for them to be doing this?

I'm in no doubt that the governments have done and still do things that we don't know about, we probably will never know.

I love how conspiracy theory believers accuse non believers of being puppets or sheep, when in fact they could be just that for believing these stories which could well have been put out there by the governments to aid in covering up the things that are really happening.


Just my 2 cents/pence.

Goog post, and it was deffinately stupid of me calling "the non-believers" puppets.
Yes, there are numerous theories as to why there is the spray phenomenon.
Yes, one of them includes the idea of weakening or killing as many as possible, and yes of course it is reasonable to think that this would be totally stupid, as they would be affected by it too. But who knows to what knowledge, technology and in this case: medicine these people have actually access to. So there is the possibility of them being little affected by the spraying, or not at all.
One other theory is that the goal is to destroy as many natural food recources of man, for example making the soil barren, so that only genetically modefied plants can grow there. Those enterprises, who would have the seed, would make unimaginable profits, and there is such one big enterprise as a possible pioneer in that direction (maybe also the only one to produce those seeds, that would fall in the new world order theory (centralized banks, gov, enterprises, etc.)), it is Monsanto.

 

[Keef]

How exactly is a corporation supposed to make "unimaginable profits" if their customer base is weakened, sickened, thereby unable to work, make money, and buy goods, or even left dead?

Explain that to me.

 

[Alex p.]

Because people need to eat to survive, maybe? No one said EVERYBODY will be absolutely unable to work or buy goods.

 

[Sureboss]

Paying for it with what money? Government benefits, the same people poisoning the soil?

Besides, before people even think of explaining the situation (and how everything is evil in the world), surely the ultimate goal is to actually prove that the stuff in the contrails is anything other than water vapour, etc? I see no evidence at all for it. It's story telling.

 

[Alex p.]

Natural to be more than doubtful of all this, but numerous tests have been made after "spraying" and extremely high numbers of Aluminum, Barium and other metals and substances have been found in soil, water, snow.
Before someone asks for proof of this, does it really matter if I post a video about it here? Of course not, because all the people doing the tests (also in laboratories) are paid nut-cases anyway, right? Oh, and they want your money, although they did not say anything about it, but they still want it!

 

[birksy82]

Yes, there are numerous theories as to why there is the spray phenomenon.
Yes, one of them includes the idea of weakening or killing as many as possible, and yes of course it is reasonable to think that this would be totally stupid, as they would be affected by it too. But who knows to what knowledge, technology and in this case: medicine these people have actually access to. So there is the possibility of them being little affected by the spraying, or not at all.

That explains it more but it's still too far fetched for me to believe it tbh.

One other theory is that the goal is to destroy as many natural food recources of man, for example making the soil barren, so that only genetically modefied plants can grow there. Those enterprises, who would have the seed, would make unimaginable profits, and there is such one big enterprise as a possible pioneer in that direction (maybe also the only one to produce those seeds, that would fall in the new world order theory (centralized banks, gov, enterprises, etc.)), it is Monsanto.

I'd be more inclined to believe this than that they are killing us (I'm not saying I do believe it), but the problem is the economy would crash as farmers would have no work and then shops would close down with more job losses and so on. They would also have to have enough gm crops to replace the normal produce, if they didn't then again shops would close because of this as they would not have the stock to keep their profits going and so on.

Is there any evidence of land becoming barren other than it happening naturally?

 

[Alex p.]

1.That explains it more but it's still too far fetched for me to believe it tbh.



2.I'd be more inclined to believe this than that they are killing us (I'm not saying I do believe it), but the problem is the economy would crash as farmers would have no work and then shops would close down with more job losses and so on. They would also have to have enough gm crops to replace the normal produce, if they didn't then again shops would close because of this as they would not have the stock to keep their profits going and so on.

Is there any evidence of land becoming barren other than it happening naturally?

1. More than understandable.

2. Yep, I know there are many many things that put this theory in question, like how free market would work then.
But "they" are planning for the future, when their awesome, war-eliminating, uber-great and man-friendly new world order is in place, where everything is supposed to be centralized.
Only God knows how politics and free-market will work then.
As to if there is evidence for soil becoming barren. I saw two series, yes on youtube, "supporting" that claim. One of the two almost convinced me, it's in German though, but obviously I could undertand perfectly what has been talked about there. It was a lecture by some guy( 52), forgot his name.

Honestly, he seemed to be a VERY credible person, he is very educated, hold lectures in unis and so forth, don't want to go into detail but my gut and my reational judgment about him told me he is a rather credible source.

 

[FoolKiller]

Natural to be more than doubtful of all this, but numerous tests have been made after "spraying" and extremely high numbers of Aluminum, Barium and other metals and substances have been found in soil, water, snow.

I know you hate being quoted or whatever, but I have a legitimate question regarding this.

Are these tests comparisons to samples taken within a week before the supposed spraying? Is there something that shows these chemicals were missing before? And were these areas under constant surveillance so that we know that there was nothing else that could have added them?

The problem is that barium can be used in any number of things from fluorescent bulbs to spark plugs to glass to ceramics and even military ammunition tracers and fireworks (makes green). Its in old vacuum tubes and CRT televisions, even used for medical imaging. It is very, very easy to see how it can show up due to pollution.

And the final key to finding if this has been sprayed over the soil would be to test the people's lungs. Barium passes through the digestive system but can accumulate in the lungs if inhaled. If this were sprayed, as is being proposed, some would have to be inhaled (one of the reasons why breaking fluorescent bulbs without protective gear is bad), and thus after finding it in the soil due to a suspicion of chemtrails the next logical step should be to perform some tests on the local population. If it isn't in their lungs in any amount above average expectations from pollution then it isn't coming down from the sky. And if these scientists are reliable and knowledgeable they would have done these tests, as this is common knowledge regarding barium that can be found in any encyclopedia.

They should also be testing for other chemicals in conjunction with it. Aluminum is good, but they are both in celsian, which is in glass and ceramics all over the world. And barium doesn't exist exposed to the air on its own. It can't. They must have tested against all other possible compounds that barium is used in for industrial use, as well as geological tests to see if any of the barium containing rocks (celsian, feldspar, others) are in the bedrock. That will rule out all forms of pollution or natural occurence. Being found with aluminum, and having no other information, I can't say the first thought here should be anything other than pollution.


I admit I have yet to watch your videos because I am at work and just noticed today that this thread was revived from the dead. Maybe the answer to my questions are there and I will see later. But just based on what I have been able to read here there is absolutely nothing to say that those chemicals found in the soil should be the results of secret chemical spraying.

 

[Alex p.]

Loved your post, I am serious and I only hate being quoted, when people get offensive lol.

Alright, these soil tests have been done by a (biologist it was?), in America, who has been noticing a significant increase of the so called chemtrails and with them a significant increase of various metals and other substances in the soil. The really interesting part here is that he and others allegedly tested Aluminuim amounts of particles in the air (soil too?), which are 15.000, yes, 15.000 times higher than the "normal" amount of particles. Now if that is true, there is no way these numbers are the result of "natural or accidental" pollution, at least it does not make sence to me. Some also tested snow and water in mountain regions, where heavy spraying has been spotted and there these extreme numbers have also been found.

Now to the lungs, as far as I know, "chemtrail-believers" did not test anybody or themselfes concerning the lungs and barium but I read several times that the...ugh what was that...it was some American health center thing?lol, well it was a governmental health institution sth., which has all the statistics concerning health of Americans obviously and they stated that respiratory deseases in the last, I believe it were 15 years, increased by 3000%. Oh and yeah they concluded the source must come from the air the people breath, how they concluded it, don't know. I really find it hard to believe this could ONLY have been caused by industrial or traffic pollution. Also, this would fit in the "theory" or observation that siginificant spraying in America started around 1998 and in Europe in 2003.

Thx for your constructive input.

 

[GT5Junkie]

Loved your post, I am serious and I only hate being quoted, when people get offensive lol.

Alright, these soil tests have been done by a (biologist it was?), in America, who has been noticing a significant increase of the so called chemtrails and with them a significant increase of various metals and other substances in the soil. The really interesting part here is that he and others allegedly tested Aluminuim amounts of particles in the air (soil too?), which are 15.000, yes, 15.000 times higher than the "normal" amount of particles. Now if that is true, there is no way these numbers are the result of "natural or accidental" pollution, at least it does not make sence to me. Some also tested snow and water in mountain regions, where heavy spraying has been spotted and there these extreme numbers have also been found.

Now to the lungs, as far as I know, "chemtrail-believers" did not test anybody or themselfes concerning the lungs and barium but I read several times that the...ugh what was that...it was some American health center thing?lol, well it was a governmental health institution sth., which has all the statistics concerning health of Americans obviously and they stated that respiratory deseases in the last, I believe it were 15 years, increased by 3000%. I really find it hard to believe this could ONLY have been caused by industrial or traffic pollution. Also, this would fit in the "theory" or observation that siginificant spraying in America started around 1998 and in Europe in 2003.

Thx for your constructive input.

Sources for any of this?

 

[Alex p.]

Yes, videos I posted.

 

[GT5Junkie]

So far I'm seeing a lot of harping about 61,000 PPB aluminum. In one test, in one place, at one time. That isn't science.

 

[Alex p.]

So far I'm seeing a lot of harping about 61,000 PPB aluminum. In one test, in one place, at one time. That isn't science.

You're a though one. 👍 (I hope you did not take this as an insult, as it was never meant to be an insult)

 

[GT5Junkie]

You're a though one. 👍 (I hope you did not take this as an insult, as it was never meant to be an insult)

I'm a practical scientist, to do my job I have to be skeptical, critical, thorough, and above all, rational. If they're really only looking at one water sample and trying to draw conclusions from it, they're nuts. There's a million different reasons why a single sample can have anomalous results. Water samples have to be collected properly. They have to transported properly. They have to be analyzed properly. Do we know for sure that this sample wasn't collected in a brand new aluminum water bottle? Aluminum is the most abundant metal on the planet, is it really very surprising that you can find high concentrations of it if you go looking? And jumping from "this water has more than usual aluminum" to "it must be caused by a giant chemtrail conspiracy" is obviously ridiculous in the extreme.

So to begin with, we don't even know if the sample is right. Assuming it is, considering these guys already believe in chemtrails, how far did they go in investigating potential alternative explanations? What's the geology like? We know it's a mountainous region. Mountainous regions tend to have a lot of metals, that's where a lot of mining happens. How far did they look into that? Probably the answer is not at all.

PHs of 6.8? I've seen pHs with entirely natural explanations of anywhere from the mid 2s to the mid 8s. 6.8 isn't unusual. It might be SLIGHTLY unusual for where he is (can't say for sure), but that could be nothing more than an extreme lack of rainfall or more alkaline rock in the area.

Barium? First of all, that amount of barium isn't unusual at all. Second, even if it was unusually high, there are places in the US that are LITTERED with barite. I've crawled around places that probably had 100 times the barium concentration that they're citing.

 

[Alex p.]

Well, yeah you're skepticisme is absolutely reasonable.

 

[wfooshee]

I tried to word a post like Foolkiller's, asking where the link was in those "tests" shiowing the spraying and the barium levels. I'm glad he did it, because I kept getting sidetracked to irelavent material, and gave up.

Saying "We saw this and then we saw that" is in no stretch of anyone's imagination the same thing as saying, "This caused that."

Bring someone from some remote island in the Pacific into a city. He's never seen anything for transportation more sophisticated than walking. He walks along the sidewalk to an intersection, sees the lights hanging over the street. The light turns red and there's a crash. His conclusion? Take down all the red lights, they cause crashes!

That's the "reasoning" in your videos. We know that the crash would be caused by a driver running the red light, not by the light itself. We're familiar with the workings of traffic lights and the rules about them. Our visitor's conclusion? Wrong cause-and-effect link deduced by ignorance of the actual principles in use.

 

[Keef]

Because people need to eat to survive, maybe? No one said EVERYBODY will be absolutely unable to work or buy goods.

If they're weak their ability to work is compromised. Therefore, they make less money. Therefore, they have trouble affording food. They buy less food. Food sellers' profits go down. Eventually they drag themselves out of business because they have to keep their prices so low because their sickly customer base - whom they've poisoned in the interest of greater profits - simply cannot afford it otherwise.

So again, support your claim. Basic economic theory doesn't agree with you. Good business people know that if they want to keep making money for a long time they need to be kind to their customer base. A little bit of sacrifice goes a long way. If this poisoning theory has anything realistic about it, it's the fact that it may be possible for a company to engineer a run on their product, creating tremendous profit. But once demand flatlines they would be screwed. And God help them if word gets out about what they actually tried to do.

 

[Alex p.]

Hm, I find this video very interesting:



This one's also quite intersting, could of course have a logical explenation.

 

[Keef]

Hm, I find this video very interesting:

I don't find it interesting, especially when the guy assumes they're at the "same height". Of course...because the the difference between 30,000 and 40,000 feet is readily apparently from the ground.

The properties of air at any given location could be vastly different than any other location. It changes even moreso with altitude, and not always in a way that one would expect.

I'll use only temperature as a basic example. The temperature drops as altitude increases, right? Wrong. The troposphere extends up to about 36,000 feet at the equator (its ceiling gets lower at higher latitudes) and this is where most of our weather originates. Average temperature drops in this layer of the atmosphere.

The temperature stops dropping abruptly at the tropopause and then throughout the stratosphere it goes up, nearly equaling ground temperature at the stratopause, 160,000 feet up. This is because the ozone layer is in the stratosphere and it absorbs solar radiation, increasing its temperature.

Temperature drops rapidly throughout the mesosphere, up to about 280,000 where the coldest temperatures in the atmosphere are. Above that, in the thermosphere, "temerature" as a measure of molecule's kinetic energy is virtually nonexistent and it becomes a function of solar radiation exposure instead. Obviously things exposed to the sun have extreme temperatures.

Anyway, enough rambling. Nothing above the lowermost stratosphere matters to airplanes, but the point is that air is complex, and even in the troposphere where air generally gets colder with altitude, that is certainly not always the case. That's why they came up with the International Standard Atmosphere to make prediction somewhat doable. This 600 page textbook only covers the basics but there's enough in there to discount any of these ridiculous chemtrail theories.

This one's also quite intersting, could of course have a logical explenation.

Again, not interesting at all. A simple case of the airplane flying into and out of air where conditions were right for cloud formation. They're most likely exhaust contrails. If that pocket of air were below a certain temperature at that certain altitude (I don't know the altitude so I can't tell you the temperature) then the moist engine exhaust combined with the very cold surrounding air would cause clouds to form.

 

[GT5Junkie]

Hm, I find this video very interesting:

This one's also quite intersting, could of course have a logical explenation.

you've been suckered by conspiracy theorists that don't know what they're talking about. This stuff is no different than half the stuff the Moon landings conspiracy nuts throw out as "evidence." Evidence that in that case only serves to prove they don't understand how cameras and shadows work.

The only thing that first video illustrates is how profoundly stupid the narrator is. Do you think he had some special equipment there that allowed him to accurately determine that the two planes were at exactly the same height? Or do you think he just looked up in the air and said "looks the same to me." They almost certainly are NOT at the same height. Mystery solved. No chemtrail explanation needed.

could of course have a logical explenation.

Like the airplane is either climbing or descending and moved into an area with different moisture and temperature conditions? Really it could probably happen even without a change in altitude.

These videos are not interesting, and they're not evidence of anything.

 

[birksy82]

I see a lot of planes going over my house, the other day the sky was clear and there were 2 planes, one was leaving a long trail and the other was leaving a short one like in the video. The only explanation for it is that they are at different altitudes they could be 10000ft apart, from the ground you can't tell this also they could have been 50 miles or more away from where I was making it even more difficult to judge this.

When I was younger I had a keen interest in planes so I used to watch them a lot I can tell you now that this has always happened, I'm 28 and when I say younger I mean I was about 10 years old. The evidence for this suggests that this has been happening in europe since 2003, I was seeing this around 1992/93. From this the evidence is incorrect as it either means that it was happening a lot sooner which I doubt, or that it's not happening at all which is what I think.