Chemtrails?

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The most obvious reasons chemtrails don't exist have already been stated. The two that stick out to me are:

1. Too many people would have to be in on the conspiracy and the general public would know by now.

How do you know that the general public don't know. And you're presupposing that you need a lot of people.

2. If a government wanted to pollute citizens there are much more effective means that are already accepted by society.

That's logical, but you're presupposing that 1) it's the government 2) whoever it is, is trying to poison the people. Neither of which I've ever stated, inferred or believe.

I'll add that imo people would believe a government who might say they are seeding clouds and that could be right out in the open for all to see, regardless of what chemicals they might actually be using.

I agree.

A bunch of science or philosophy is not needed to know it's a ridiculous conspiracy theory on many fronts :lol:

Really?
 
What do you think general public means, a few hipsters in the back of the corner market?

I didn't realize I was speaking directly to you but whatever, it doesn't have to be the government for my statement to still hold water, ultra rich aliens if you choose.

Yes really, there is no reasonable reason to believe commercial airlines are spraying chemicals all over the place for the lolz.

(Not to mention there are plenty of independent whistle blower type organizations that could find the resources to test the air we breath also, surely? oh they must all be in on it also ;) )
 
Ah good. Fallacy 1 agreed upon.You have repeatedly rejected any post or poster who has said chemtrails are not real by suggesting that because they cannot prove they are not real there must be sufficient room for doubt, so they could be.

Really. Are you actually reading what I'm writing, because you seem to find it impossible to give a specific example of the generalised statements you attribute to me.

Actually it's just circular reasoning in general. If sort of fits the above - chemtrails are real because you can't prove they aren't.

SO what you're saying is that chem-trails aren't real because I can't prove they are. That's okay because I can't prove they are. Not only that, I never said that they were real.

However here the circle is that every time you make a suggestion for the possible veracity (via mechanism, effect or supposition) of chemtrails and it's rejected, you move onto a new one.Contrails and government conspiracies.
So roughly how many suggestions for possible different mechanisms have I made. I'll tell you - there's two. Mixed with fuel or from a separate tank. The first has been dismissed because or the thermal-jet-engineering-pilots people on the thread. (Incidentally - do you think I'm trying to prove the existence of chem-trails or just have a chat about it, and maybe learn something into the bargain).

Your thermal map image was an example also.Actually, you've done it repeatedly - by suggesting that they haven't been proven false. You do so in the above post to @Akira AC...

The typical mechanism of a conspiracy theorist is also to assume that people who don't agree with them do so for nefarious reasons - the appeal to motive - as part of the cover-up. Latterly you've been suggesting that people who don't agree with you are doing so because they're not scientists - though you have since suggested that @BobK is doing so because he's "in government"...You have it arse-about-face. It's just Russell's Teapot all over again.
I said Bob may be in government because he hadn't said anything useful in the thread, not because I actually think he is in the government. So go back and re-read what I said.

You cannot prove something doesn't exist. You can only prove it does, or fail to do so. It is not beholden upon anyone to prove chemtrails don't exist - it's the responsibility of those who assert that they do to prove that they do.

I know that,that was the point. So how does he come to the conclusion that he does? He believes it. And theres nothing wrong with that. It's just nice to know why you believe something. And I haven't asked anyone to prove anything nor made any statements which require proof.

The video you posted is not evidence of chemtrails because it is logistically unfeasible to put additives into the fuel of commercial aeroplanes that is not burned by the jet combustion process and remains behind, active, to affect the atmosphere - the planes would crash. A lot. My very first answer to your post summed it up in the simplest possible way.

I agree. I was only asking if the video was of chem-trails. Other people decided to broaden the thread into chem-trails, conspiracies. I mentioned geo-engineering, there could be other motives, but how the hell would I know why anyone would do anything.
 
How do you know that the general public don't know. And you're presupposing that you need a lot of people.

Because most people aren't even aware of the theory, let alone believe it.

That's logical, but you're presupposing that 1) it's the government 2) whoever it is, is trying to poison the people. Neither of which I've ever stated, inferred or believe.

Well, after reading through all this thread again, I don't think anyone here actually understands what you believe. Aside from the amusing nature of your self proclaimed scientific know how.


The majority of conspiracy theories favor extremely vague and complex solutions over rational, straight forward approaches. The motivation is often some perceived notion of persecution or secret agendas. By doing so, those entertaining such theories will often dismiss actual evidence to the contrary because it is "just part of the system, man," case in point being those I spoke with claiming Snowden is just a ploy to distract us from the REAL conspiracies.

Or that your entire argument seems to revolve "you can't prove they don't exist" while endlessly displaying your failure to evaluate information in an objective way.
 
I agree. I was only asking if the video was of chem-trails. Other people decided to broaden the thread into chem-trails, conspiracies. I mentioned geo-engineering, there could be other motives, but how the hell would I know why anyone would do anything.
I wonder how many revision the OP has gotten thus far.

Last edit was yesterday and the thread started nearly 3 days ago :lol:
 
I wonder how many revision the OP has gotten thus far.

Last edit was yesterday and the thread started nearly 3 days ago :lol:
My guess is for 50 in 57 posts. For some reason the questions that are so clearly asked and ANSWERED by various people don't have any validity. Either:
A) The answer is to merely agree with him and let him continue this general ____hattery or.
B) The question was rhetorical, as is the entire thread and it serves no purpose.

I've never seen someone be told the same answer so many times yet fail to acknowledge it.
 
I don't recall insulting anybody. My first post in this thread was a link to my explanation in a different thread on the same topic. In this thread I further explained some of the various atmospheric phenomena that cause airplanes to create different types of clouds during different phases of flight.

The video in the OP; just pressure vortices. The smokers' corner that I occasionally occupy is directly below the final approach to a very major airport, during early mornings it can be quite beautiful watching the larger planes sinking out of the mist dragging surprisingly dense ribbons of "wake" behind them. There's also a great sound along the "tunnel" they carve.

If that's chemtrailing then I'd be completely burtation.

OP, honestly, that video shows what happens to very damp air when you compress it with a semi-blade sticking out of the side of a 100,000kg vehicle travelling at over 150mpg. The forces involved are incredible.

You can see this for yourself by just hanging around near an airport when the weather's misty. That, in my opinion, answers your question quite adequately.

Err. Put extra fuel in. So it doesn't run out. Not rocket science.

Additives[edit]
The DEF STAN 91-91 (UK) and ASTM D1655 (international) specifications allow for certain additives to be added to jet fuel, including:[12][13]


Ooh, just spotted this.

All those additives look after fuel during its storage, delivery into an aircraft and use in an aircraft.

Given that jet fuel undergoes massive chamber loads and is then detonated I think you'd struggle to find an additive that survived the process. Also, don't think that those additives are the kind of thing you pick up in a dimestore, each will be a certified compound that's undergone a lot of testing for certification (in the case of jet fuel additives, at least).

And the bit where you "just put extra fuel in", that is rocket science. Having the wrong amount of fuel in the wrong tank at given times can make a vehicle unflyable, plus you've got to have enough fuel to carry your fuel, but the more fuel you put in...
 
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Mind-reading. You haven't a clue why I'm posting what I'm posting, but that's okay.
Then why not enlighten us? Because all you've done so far is try and find loop-holes in common sense.
Just because I haven't got solid proof of anything doesn't mean I'm not a scientist.
You're right. It's your attitude to the educated responses of others that means you're not a scientist.

To clarify: Scientists do try and investigate things. I'm sure you're trying to tell us that this is what you're doing. Asking questions, being scientific.

What they don't generally do is investigate things and then dismiss anything that doesn't fit with their own views. You've brought up the "chemicals in fuel" thing over and over, despite being explained, chemical-by-chemical in some cases, which ones work and which ones don't. And by people who work with, or fly, aircraft, on why you can't just bung a tank of chemicals in a big aircraft without someone noticing.

Dismissing all of that isn't "science", it's conspiracy lunacy.
Hey, you just admitted that I admitted that I'd made a mistake. What exactly was my mistake?
>
I asked if it was a chem-trail. Information given by some of the more informed of you, has ascertained that it pretty much looks like water vapour coming of the wing-things(technical term).
Despite the fact you're trying to dress up the original post as an innocent question on whether something was a chemtrail or not (the rest of your posts give away that it isn't, since you're insistent on trying to find ways that it could be a chemtrail, ignoring all the other evidence), you've had to concede that it was water vapour, as it has been all along.

Of course, I'm sure you still secretly think it's probably chemtrails anyway, so evidence to the contrary provided here probably won't make a blind bit of difference.
First part is an assumption/opinion, not a proof.
True. But it baffles me why some people think it's easier for tens of thousands of people to maintain a conspiracy than it is for just one of those people to whistle-blow and blow the whole thing wide open.

Edward Snowden shows that whistle-blowers like that do exist. And they do come out when they think something is wrong. The law of averages suggests the whistle should have been blown long ago, and any chemtrail conspiracy would have been widely exposed by now.

Proof of chemtrails isn't in the absence of the conspiracy's discovery.
Second part relies on scientists who a)looking for relevent data b)would be prepared to stand up and say it's happening, a bit like the spanish inquisition.
Err... those scientists are called meteorologists, and thousands of them are constantly monitoring the behaviour and composition of the atmosphere. It's arguably one of the single biggest and widest-reaching scientific genres we study...

And again, you think that none of those thousands of scientists would have stood up by now? This isn't the middle ages, we don't lynch scientists for saying things that don't fit with our world view (though responses to AGW make me wonder).
 
This isn't the middle ages, we don't lynch scientists for saying things that don't fit with our world view (though responses to AGW make me wonder).

Don't you think the lack of a serious or credible response to AGW makes it believable that AGW isn't really all that serious or credible?
 
Ooh, just spotted this.

All those additives look after fuel during its storage, delivery into an aircraft and use in an aircraft.

Given that jet fuel undergoes massive chamber loads and is then detonated I think you'd struggle to find an additive that survived the process. Also, don't think that those additives are the kind of thing you pick up in a dimestore, each will be a certified compound that's undergone a lot of testing for certification (in the case of jet fuel additives, at least).

I believe the corrosion inhibitor part is where some of the conspiracy scientists begin their work, I don't know about aviation fuel all that much other than we used to buy some sort from the local airport to mix with high octane pump fuel and back then *gasp, leaded fuel.

My point being they most likely are putting some sort of something into the fuel the same way we used to keep our valves soft, or delay early detonation, or whatever it was we were trying to do, all we knew was our engines ran fast and cool. IIRC the claim is dreaded zinc, oh noos. Maybe we were the ones actually fogging out the masses and stopping global warming lol.

What is funny to me is none of these nuts are complaining about the goods they receive or their personal destination achieved unless either is late, they trust the method when it suits them.
 
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I wonder how many revision the OP has gotten thus far.

Last edit was yesterday and the thread started nearly 3 days ago :lol:
You missed the fact that the video was deleted so I had to find another copy. Now who's laughing :lol::lol:

Because most people aren't even aware of the theory, let alone believe it.
How do you know that statement's true?

Well, after reading through all this thread again, I don't think anyone here actually understands what you believe. Aside from the amusing nature of your self proclaimed scientific know how.

Yes they do, they know exactly what I believe.

The majority of conspiracy theories favor extremely vague and complex solutions over rational, straight forward approaches. The motivation is often some perceived notion of persecution or secret agendas. By doing so, those entertaining such theories will often dismiss actual evidence to the contrary because it is "just part of the system, man," case in point being those I spoke with claiming Snowden is just a ploy to distract us from the REAL conspiracies.

I haven't said that there is a conspiracy. I've only asked whether it would me mechanically possible to spray chemicals into the air by plane. Why ? Because if it isn't then there is no need to spend any time on it.

Or that your entire argument seems to revolve "you can't prove they don't exist" while endlessly displaying your failure to evaluate information in an objective way.

What information, are you really not bothering to read my posts, who taught you to read. I haven't needed to prove anything, I haven't said anything. And give me ONE example of some information that I have failed to evaluate.
 
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Hey dingaling, you missed the fact that the video was deleted so I had to find another copy. Now who's laughing :lol::lol:
Not you if you keep with the personal attacks on people probably.
 
Did you change the OP question from is the video proof of chemtrails to are chemtrails possible to make?
 
I'll still be laughing. But I've removed the comment.

Did you change the OP question from is the video proof of chemtrails to are chemtrails possible to make?

No. The only change to the OP was the video, same video but different source. Someone had a pop at me because matters beyond my control deleted the youtube video. Nice that they made fun of me though. And also funny how none of them have been taken to task regarding their comments.

let him continue this general ____hattery or.
.

You insulting me? Or doesn't it count if you miss a couple of letters out _____ouch__g ! lo

Since when did speculation become so evil? And require so many people to obfuscate and confuse.
 
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Just curious then.

I haven't said that there is a conspiracy. I've only asked whether it would me mechanically possible to spray chemicals into the air by plane. Why ? Because if it isn't then there is no need to spend any time on it.
 
You missed the fact that the video was deleted so I had to find another copy. Now who's laughing :lol::lol:

Everyone, I suspect.


How do you know that statement's true?

Well, I haven't bothered to sample the global population, ain't got time for that. My smaller, and relatively less meaningful, data set from internet readings and local discussions suggest most people aren't aware of it.

Yes they do, they know exactly what I believe.

Best I can tell, you believe nothing except everything looks "weird."

I haven't said that there is a conspiracy. I've only asked whether it would me mechanically possible to spray chemicals into the air by plane. Why ? Because if it isn't then there is no need to spend any time on it.

Apparently you aren't familiar with crop dusting, which has only been around a few decades. Shocking.

What information, are you really not bothering to read my posts, who taught you to read. I haven't needed to prove anything, I haven't said anything. And give me ONE example of some information that I have failed to evaluate.

Well, given how everyone seems to be on the same page but you, and you seem incapable of grasping what has been said, I think this is rapidly turning into a waste of time. Why? Because all of the "questions" you've asked have been answered.

As for an example of you failing to evaluate information, we have this entire thread to go off of.
 
Someone had a pop at me because matters beyond my control deleted the youtube video. Nice that they made fun of me though. And also funny how none of them have been taken to task regarding their comments.
Runs out of credible responses, begins to take issue with the way people choose to post instead.

For the record, I've just been sarcastic. You've been the one to start this thread on an open-ended, not-particularly-discursive premise, accused the whole forum of being hostile, dodged perfectly reasonable responses in order to post things that have already been debunked, implied that other members aren't reading what you're writing simply because they've had the gall to question your dubious conversational methods and - perhaps least surprisingly, given the subject matter - neatly played the conspiratorial "everyone is against me" card.

Whose comments really need taking to task?
 
And also funny how none of them have been taken to task regarding their comments.
And how exactly do you know that?

Your not a member of staff and as such you have no idea of what action may or may not have been taken against any member other than yourself.

Given that I would strongly suggest that you worry far less about action taken against others (feel free to report what you consider to be AUP violations) and ensure that your posts fall in line with the AUP.
 
My assumption is based upon the fact that my rebukes have all been 'in the window'. I see no-one else publicly rebuked.
 
Not you if you keep with the personal attacks on people probably.
Thanks, is nice to see the nature of things said in an unedited version.
Runs out of credible responses, begins to take issue with the way people choose to post instead.

For the record, I've just been sarcastic. You've been the one to start this thread on an open-ended, not-particularly-discursive premise, accused the whole forum of being hostile, dodged perfectly reasonable responses in order to post things that have already been debunked, implied that other members aren't reading what you're writing simply because they've had the gall to question your dubious conversational methods and - perhaps least surprisingly, given the subject matter - neatly played the conspiratorial "everyone is against me" card.

Whose comments really need taking to task?
And quoted for truth, no need to waste time in typing what has been obvious and logical.
 
My assumption is based upon the fact that my rebukes have all been 'in the window'. I see no-one else publicly rebuked.

Then I strongly suggest you refrain from assuming. Keep attempting to discuss moderation and you will find out what moderation involves.
 
Runs out of credible responses, begins to take issue with the way people choose to post instead.

For the record, I've just been sarcastic. You've been the one to start this thread on an open-ended, not-particularly-discursive premise, accused the whole forum of being hostile, dodged perfectly reasonable responses in order to post things that have already been debunked, implied that other members aren't reading what you're writing simply because they've had the gall to question your dubious conversational methods and - perhaps least surprisingly, given the subject matter - neatly played the conspiratorial "everyone is against me" card.

Whose comments really need taking to task?
Hey if you want to take any of my individual, specific points to task then fire away. But not the scattergun, it's all balderdash that's becoming the theme here.

Firstly not the whole forum, just the people in this thread. I haven't dodged anything. In fact the only thing I've disagreed with is your logic. I haven't disagreed with any of you regarding matters of which you have more understanding than I. I have questioned and agreed with the bulk. I really don't understand why you are arguing with me. Wouldn't you all be better off going, after all, since this is such a "silly thread", why are you still reading it.

Do you want me to 'chunk-up' ? Some of you will know what this is, if you don't then your better off not knowing.

How can I say what my reason for the chem-trails is before they've been established as even being possible. For the conversation to progress in a linear fashion, then we need to find an area of agreement. I've agreed that chem-trails do not come from the fuel/chem mixture. Can I have some agreement that it is entirely possible that chemicals could be released from planes via a separate tank?

I believe that the environment is being negatively affected , deliberately or without concern for the consequences for humanity, by chemicals released into the atmosphere.

Since crop-dusting is possible then so is this. Is this why everyone stayed focused on attacking the fuel/chem mixture proposition, and ignored the other. So that they wouldn't have to admit that this is possible? There must be 10 people in this thread who have said that chem-trails in whatever form do not exist. I was simply trying to find out how they knew that was true.

Here's a video for those who are interested, and I must admit that this is only a possible reason why chemicals are being released, i.e weather modification, there may be other reasons why it is happening. Yes that's right I don't believe that this video is true. But I don't beleive it is false either. I simply don't know.



I didn't name the clip BTW just posting. Want more Barium on your cornflakes ?

 
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How can I say what my reason for the chem-trails is before they've been established as even being possible. For the conversation to progress in a linear fashion, then we need to find an area of agreement. I've agreed that chem-trails do not come from the fuel/chem mixture. Can I have some agreement that it is entirely possible that chemicals could be released from planes via a separate tank?
Going in circles much?
Basically what you want is an agreement in the possibility that chemtrails exists, then you show flimsy evidence that they do(like in the immediate post I'm quoting), then is debunked, then you don't believe in them but support it's existence, then you ignore the reasoning against it, circle around the issue ignoring the reasoning why is an stupid idea, then you get all offended and comes a closure in which you claim everyone is wrong for not believing in the possibility of something so stupid being true.

Rinse and repeat until you look yourself a buffoon, seem to be working just fine as it is.

It's called an argument because two or more people disagree in an idea or concept, an argument ceases to exist once one of the positions of the argument agrees with the other. Wanting people to just discuss within the idea of Chemtrails existing goes nowhere, it would be like god studies or whatever, sure there is an argument between themselves but they agree that there is a god, thus negate the fundamental basis for a more deep discussion.

Compare that to a discussion between an atheist and a Christian/Muslim/Etc... there is a more deep discussion because the very fundamental blocks of each side of the argument are being put into question, thus creating a valid discussion without any pre existing condition.

People here tent to be reasonable, not biased. If they are shown a postulate then assume that such posture is true without fundamental logical basis all you have is a big argument to question the existence of such postulate in the first place, and not an argument within the realm of the postulate.

People is smart enough to not fall into the void of "such thing is real because it can't be proved otherwise" because they are smart enough to not believe in such thing in the first place.
 
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Going in circles much?
Basically what you want is an agreement in the possibility that chemtrails exists, then you show flimsy evidence that they do(like in the immediate post I'm quoting), then is debunked, then you don't believe in them but support it's existence, then you ignore the reasoning against it, circle around the issue ignoring the reasoning why is an stupid idea, then you get all offended and comes a closure in which you claim everyone is wrong for not believing in the possibility of something so stupid being true.

I haven't shown any evidence that chem-trails exist. I think that they might exist. No-one has denied crop-dusting, which is the same thing, but obviously what I'm getting at is maybe a little more global in scale.

People is smart enough to not fall into the void of "such thing is real because it can't be proved otherwise" because they are smart enough to not believe in such thing in the first place.

At no point have I said that. I have said that if it can't be proved then it might or might not be true. Your argument is that because you can't think of a way that it can be done, then it can't. That's hardly logical captain.


This ones for Blitz reference ______atter.

 
I haven't shown any evidence that chem-trails exist. I think that they might exist. No-one has denied crop-dusting, which is the same thing, but obviously what I'm getting at is maybe a little more global in scale.

No, not really at all but go ahead and tell yourself that.
 
Crop-dusting at 40,000 ft. Sounds extremely effective and definitely not anything pointless.
 
Crop dusters generally don't exceed 4000 feet, let alone 40,000 feet. In fact when they're doing their thing they might be under 40 feet AGL:
crop-duster-mtopper.jpg

It's also fairly obvious that there are a few modifications made to this plane for the job.

So no, not the same thing at all.
 
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