Chemtrails?

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Yep, afterburners have a distinctive smell, due to the sheer amount of jet fuel dumped into the exhaust. Fighter engines are typically run lean to allow enough air to be in the exhaust flow to be re-ignited when fuel is added via afterburner. Afterburner is extremely inefficient, but can increase thrust by 30-50% in many fighters. Of course, this means most fighters can only be in afterburner for only a matter of minutes before bingo fuel.
Though, jet engines in general do have an odor (a strong one at that), which is distinctive from other forms of internal combustion engines...
 
Ask anyone who's worked for the government if the government is competent enough to pull something like this off.

They're not. The hyper competent government is a myth.

This is like those people that think 9/11 was a conspiracy because they think the US has ace pilots in stealth jets roaming the skies 24/7z
 
@Enemem Uh as I've already stated cloud seeding =/= chem trails or prove their existence also why would it need to when cloud seeding is well documented as a way or providing weather change for the benefit of a country's people, or for the destruction of an opposing force. Kind of hard to hide what is already known and then mask it as something else.

They're contrails and until proven otherwise, I'm sure you can find a scientific article on the matter, dont be shy.

First of all, I'm pretty sure I didn't say chem-trails exist. Merely asking the question as to the referenced video. Someone mentioned that if you added either something to fuel or dispersed from a separate tank, then it would affect the distance and performance of the planes. If 1,000 lbs were added then maybe it would make a difference, some planes are however capable of taking more than this as a payload. This begs the question how much of the imaginary chemicals would you need? My statement, that snow was created, allegedly, with only 6lbs of chemical merely indicated that maybe only a small amount would be needed. That's all I was saying. And I'm sure that's pretty close to what I said, so isn't that what I said?


While you have not specifically mentioned in this thread that you believe Chem-trails exist you have dismissed and/or ignored evidence that clearly shows they don't exist and that no conspiracy exists around them, while at the same time presenting supposed evidence in support in a positive light.

Basically your stance and bias present you as a supporter of Chem-trails.

You say that I've ignored evidence that chemtrails don't exist. This is a question unrelated to my OP, but it's no matter. Evidence that something doesn't exist, is pretty difficult to find.
Just because I don't know, doesn't make me a supporter of 'the conspiracy', and I'm certainly not a supporter of chem-trails ! If this puts me opposite to you, then presumably you KNOW there are NOT chemtrails . In the same way you KNOW that there is no God/Aliens. I unfortunately know that I don't know whether the forementioned two subjects exist or don't. There are more than 2 camps, not just believers and non-believers.

It reads "B2".


Could you please state your criteria again so that we're all on the same page?

Semantics, kind of. Sometimes asking the same question again, and again, can elicit different responses, I find that asking different questions can give you a fuller picture. My verbage was probably out of whack, hope you understand.
Only you're not asking particularly serious questions.

What you're doing is asking leading questions in the hope you'll strike gold that we're all somehow wrong about chemtrails.

Mind-reading. You haven't a clue why I'm posting what I'm posting, but that's okay.
Don't try and dress what you're doing up as science. If it was science you'd have been able to find all these answers for yourself, and would have started the thread with an explanation of both sides of the chemtrails argument, perhaps furnishing it with your own views - and the debate would have gone from there.
Just because I haven't got solid proof of anything doesn't mean I'm not a scientist.
Instead, you post random bits of conspiracy dross every time people post evidence for why chemtrails aren't a thing, without bothering to counter or refute those points. You're either incredibly poor at creating balanced, educated debates, or you've got an agenda to peddle. I'm leaning towards the latter.

The evidence that chem-trails presented, namely, persistent trails do not contain chemicals (for whatever purpose) because the jet engines would a)break or b)chemicals would breakdown, is hardly a proof(although if someone has done experiments with data to prove what has been said, I would accept it as fact. But this doesn't exempt the argument of a separate delivery system. That's hardly my fault. I only came in here to ask what was on the video.

That bit was called "sarcasm". I was half expecting you to use the fact the video had been pulled as evidence it was something people didn't want the world to see.

And yet you've not gone "oh right, my mistake", you've continued to put forward various bits of supposed evidence for chemtrails existing. And continue to do so every time someone says "no, that's not chemtrails either". I'm sure you'll do the same again when someone refutes the Wikipedia quote about cloud seeding.
Hey, you just admitted that I admitted that I'd made a mistake. What exactly was my mistake?
Because literally tens of thousands of people work in the airline industry and at least a handful of them would be very aware that something wasn't routine.

There are also tens of thousands of independent scientists around the world taking atmospheric readings, who'd be able to spot unusual signatures, including those not visible to the naked eye.
First part is an assumption/opinion, not a proof. Second part relies on scientists who a)looking for relevent data b)would be prepared to stand up and say it's happening, a bit like the spanish inquisition.


Incidentally, have any of you ever looked for evidence that chem-trails exist? Or just decided they don't.
 
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You say that I've ignored evidence that chemtrails don't exist. This is a question unrelated to my OP, but it's no matter. Evidence that something doesn't exist, is pretty difficult to find.
Just because I don't know, doesn't make me a supporter of 'the conspiracy', and I'm certainly not a supporter of chem-trails ! If this puts me opposite to you, then presumably you KNOW there are NOT chemtrails . In the same way you KNOW that there is no God/Aliens. I unfortunately know that I don't know whether the forementioned two subjects exist or don't. There are more than 2 camps, not just believers and non-believers.
You have ignored evidence of what various items and phenomenon actually are and I'm certainly not alone in noticing that.

As for your assumptions about my position on what I KNOW, that's exactly what it is, an assumption.

I will remove that assumption for you, I have no belief in gods (to make that one rather clear - as off topic as it is). I have been presented with zero evidence of chem-trails or aliens, however if you (or anyone) are able to provide evidence that will meet the scientific standard then I would be more than happy to re-evaluate that position.
 
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Ask anyone who's worked for the government if the government is competent enough to pull something like this off.

They're not. The hyper competent government is a myth.

This is like those people that think 9/11 was a conspiracy because they think the US has ace pilots in stealth jets roaming the skies 24/7z

We do, they're robot pilots that fly in stealth/invisible via plasma clouds.

First of all, I'm pretty sure I didn't say chem-trails exist. Merely asking the question as to the referenced video. Someone mentioned that if you added either something to fuel or dispersed from a separate tank, then it would affect the distance and performance of the planes. If 1,000 lbs were added then maybe it would make a difference, some planes are however capable of taking more than this as a payload. This begs the question how much of the imaginary chemicals would you need? My statement, that snow was created, allegedly, with only 6lbs of chemical merely indicated that maybe only a small amount would be needed. That's all I was saying. And I'm sure that's pretty close to what I said, so isn't that what I said?


However, you implied it then and again in bold. You have given an example of cloud seeding which is well known and documented, and is not chemtrail or what people claim they are. Also as I've said now again they are banned under the UN when used in warfare due to it being weather manipulation but why would a nation do it on a scale to harm their own citizens and thus be at odds with a UN law agreed too?
 
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Just because I haven't got solid proof of anything doesn't mean I'm not a scientist.

No, what makes you not a scientist is that a scientist would have educated themselves on the current explanations for the phenomena you're talking about to see whether there are any gaps that still need explaining. A scientist would be able to see the massive difficulties in maintaining a conspiracy such as chemtrails over a sustained period of time, simply from information easily available on the internet.

A scientist would have posited the hypothesis of chemtrails, and then ripped apart every piece of their own evidence before even getting anywhere near this forums.

You are not a scientist, you're a dilettante who hasn't taken the time to educate themselves properly.
 
No, what makes you not a scientist is that a scientist would have educated themselves on the current explanations for the phenomena you're talking about to see whether there are any gaps that still need explaining. A scientist would be able to see the massive difficulties in maintaining a conspiracy such as chemtrails over a sustained period of time, simply from information easily available on the internet.

A scientist would have posited the hypothesis of chemtrails, and then ripped apart every piece of their own evidence before even getting anywhere near this forums.

You are not a scientist, you're a dilettante who hasn't taken the time to educate themselves properly.

Wow this is probably the first time someone I feel fully encapsulated what I feel about another user, some have gotten close but you summed it up really well. If I knew how to make a signature I'd honor that line in bold for a week or two
 
No, what makes you not a scientist is that a scientist would have educated themselves on the current explanations for the phenomena you're talking about to see whether there are any gaps that still need explaining. A scientist would be able to see the massive difficulties in maintaining a conspiracy such as chemtrails over a sustained period of time, simply from information easily available on the internet.

A scientist would have posited the hypothesis of chemtrails, and then ripped apart every piece of their own evidence before even getting anywhere near this forums.

You are not a scientist, you're a dilettante who hasn't taken the time to educate themselves properly.
A scientist would not have needed to be told the difference between a theory and a hypothesis as he was a few months ago.
 
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Thanks for that. Having decided to ignore some of the things I've said. You've now decided that you'd attack me. Bravo.

Ad hominem.

Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hominem attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

However maybe you don't want to discredit my argument. Just me. Nice.

Maybe some of the questions I've asked are too near to the truth.
 
Thanks for that. Having decided to ignore some of the things I've said. You've now decided that you'd attack me. Bravo.

Ad hominem.

However maybe you don't want to discredit my argument. Just me. Nice.

Maybe some of the questions I've asked are too near to the truth.
Do you want the list of logical fallacies you've committed in this thread? It's quite large.
 
You started off with a petitio principii of sorts (presenting the conclusion [Chemtrails] as the premise) and you've used onus probandi, circulus in demonstrando, cum hoc ergo propter hoc, plurium interrogationum and argumentum ad ignorantiam. I'm not sure if you've used an appeal to motive - though I'd be surprised if you hadn't - and the entire concept of Chemtrails is an argument based on the unnatural fallacy.
 
Thanks for that. Having decided to ignore some of the things I've said. You've now decided that you'd attack me. Bravo.

Ad hominem.

When you attempt to dress your conspiracy theories up as science, and yourself as the scientist presenting them, you shouldn't be surprised when people question your authority to provide that information.

After all, you're not dispensing raw data here, you're dispensing your opinion. Whether or not you're a reliable scientist has a big impact on how your theories are treated, given the lack of hard data.

Until further evidence comes to light, my observation from your behaviour is that you are not a reliable scientist.
 
Pot. Kettle. Black.

BobK
Sheesh. Not this again, please.
Enemem said
And @BobK. if you don't like chemtrail threads, then what the hell are you doing in here?
Surely a bright laddie like you can figure it out.
Hoping, but no real expectancy of it.

You've contributed nothing to this thread except for the above posts. Good job you're not in the entertainment industry, possibly you're in government.

When you attempt to dress your conspiracy theories up as science, and yourself as the scientist presenting them, you shouldn't be surprised when people question your authority to provide that information.

After all, you're not dispensing raw data here, you're dispensing your opinion. Whether or not you're a reliable scientist has a big impact on how your theories are treated, given the lack of hard data.

Until further evidence comes to light, my observation from your behaviour is that you are not a reliable scientist.

Which particular opinion do you have a problem with?

You started off with a petitio principii of sorts (presenting the conclusion [Chemtrails] as the premise) and you've used onus probandi, circulus in demonstrando, cum hoc ergo propter hoc, plurium interrogationum and argumentum ad ignorantiam. I'm not sure if you've used an appeal to motive - though I'd be surprised if you hadn't - and the entire concept of Chemtrails is an argument based on the unnatural fallacy.

If you want me to spout of a whole bunch of fallacies then I can, but , as in your post, it would be pretty meaningless. How can refute any of them, when you don't give specific examples of when I used them. And that's what I meant by deeply.

{EDIT : Thanks to the mod who combined these}
 
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You've contributed nothing to this thread except for the above posts. Good job you're not in the entertainment industry, possibly you're in government.

BobK's three words were actually code. You can expect a visit from the men in suits soon.
 
If you want me to spout of a whole bunch of fallacies then I can, but , as in your post, it would be pretty meaningless. How can refute any of them, when you don't give specific examples of when I used them.
The problem isn't that you can't refute them without examples. It's that you can't refute them because you've actually done them. I mean, you even used one of the list in your response to BobK (part of the triple post I just merged for you).

You're more than welcome to Google them - there's a big list on Wikipedia you can refer to if you like - but I asked if you wanted a list and you said yes.
And that's what I meant by deeply.
You edited that in 18 minutes after my post. I can't time travel.
 
The problem isn't that you can't refute them without examples. It's that you can't refute them because you've actually done them. I mean, you even used one of the list in your response to BobK (part of the triple post I just merged for you).

You're more than welcome to Google them - there's a big list on Wikipedia you can refer to if you like - but I asked if you wanted a list and you said yes.You edited that in 18 minutes after my post. I can't time travel.

And that's why I don't like combining answers to different posts. Confusing isn't it?
 
First of:
You've contributed nothing to this thread except for the above posts. Good job you're not in the entertainment industry, possibly you're in government.
:lol:

Second of:
For those who say a lot of "chemicals" would be needed


6lbs !!
It's only an answer if it covers all bases required by the questioner. Surely, it's not the answerer's call, but the questioner.



And that's what a scientist would do, cover all questions.
Yeah, it's my fault it disappeared from original webpage, you may think it's a conspiracy, but I don't. And I didn't ask why, I asked if it was a chem-trail. Information given by some of the more informed of you, has ascertained that it pretty much looks like water vapour coming of the wing-things(technical term[what?]).

Let me ask a question. Let's assume that chemtrails are bunkum, not too much of a stretch for most of you. If someone developed a technology that enabled governments to spray chemicals(without trails of any sort) from planes, how would you ever find out?
And there is where everything breaks down, scientifically wise.

You see, while is perfectly possible to hold secret compartments on a plane (which in itself is not so secret when plane manufactures have to re condition planes due to material fatigue), it is a hollow question.

What if there are aliens? What if there is a God? What if I'm US president Obama?

When I go and do the actual search about chemicals in planes and such the only thing I found is some random BS about mind control, population control, CIA, Mkultra, etc ... All of them based on what IFs with no concrete evidence, all of them followed by either of the following suspects: Zionists, CIA, Illuminati, New World Order Gov, Fremasons, etc ...

And that tells it all, if you base your arguments in the same crap that everyone on the internet says (what if, what if, what if) then everyone here will take the respective stance, is not an attack on you but it is an a attack on the concept itself, you don't support it but you support the theory of it being possible then refute such theory when everyone starts to show evidence of why such method would be impractical (that's without mentioning a lot of molecular dynamics that occur at higher altitudes, heck even fuel condensates at higher altitudes and it would be very difficult to produce a substance that can dissipate in the atmosphere and land on land unaltered, at this point is where all the conspiracy people starts with the whole new tech and secret weapons BS that are debunked by basic rules of either physics or thermodynamics).
 
Okay.
Famine
You started off with a petitio principii of sorts (presenting the conclusion [Chemtrails] as the premise

Yes I did. A presupposition that chem-trails were real.

Famine
onus probandi
Burden of proof. You ask me prove that chem-trails exist - yes? At no point have I said that they are real, so I don't need to prove it. In fact, I know that you can see, that my questions were asked with that presupposition. And since you could see that, then I don't see why you have a problem with it.

Famine
circulus in demonstrando

So you say that I was trying to tell you that X is true because X is true! - So what is X?

Famine
cum hoc ergo propter hoc

I
t is fallacious to suppose that there is a causative link between two things simply because they coexist.
What two things? Chem-trails and a plane?


Famine
argumentum ad ignorantiam
This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false.
You mean like chem-trails, they are true because you can't prove them false. Yes. No, that's not what I said. I don't know if chem-trails are real, and I certainly would use this reasoning as a proof.

@Akira AC No. My argument is based upon the premise that you haven't studied the data to a sufficient degree that you are able to say that you are correct.

Or to put it another way ---> Chem-trails don't exist because you know for certain that.........

I don't expect you to have an answer, because you haven't got one. That's the point.
 
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@Akira AC No. My argument is based upon the premise that you haven't studied the data to a sufficient degree that you are able to say that you are correct.
What does that even mean?

Sure I haven't got a chemistry degree, however I have done enough courses to know about the basics of thermodynamics (and at some degree molecular physics). Not saying that my argument is definitive but that the counterargument is fundamentally flawed for the reasons given previously.

Your argument is purely based on assumptions rather than empirical data (which makes any of your arguments fundamentally flawed when they are confronted with empirical data).
 
You've contributed nothing to this thread except for the above posts
First of all, you're wrong (again).

Second of all, I've made a contribution to this thread aside from my posts themselves; I've given you an opportunity to demonstrate your hypocrisy, and you jumped at the chance. Several times.
 
I still don't know the purpose of these chemicals. No matter how much evidence there is (which from where I am sitting is almost nothing) if there is no reason then I refuse to believe it. Would they really do things like cut fuel efficiency because they felt like it? No.
Well you saying you don't believe in them and yet defending the idea to the extent you have is contradictory.

So I ask the quoted question again. An "I don't know" doesn't work. I need a reason from you. Why do you keep ignoring it?
 
Yes I did. A presupposition that chem-trails were real.
Ah good. Fallacy 1 agreed upon.
Burden of proof. You ask me prove that chem-trails exist - yes? At no point have I said that they are real, so I don't need to prove it. In fact, I know that you can see, that my questions were asked with that presupposition. And since you could see that, then I don't see why you have a problem with it.
You have repeatedly rejected any post or poster who has said chemtrails are not real by suggesting that because they cannot prove they are not real there must be sufficient room for doubt, so they could be.
So you say that I was trying to tell you that X is true because X is true! - So what is X?
Actually it's just circular reasoning in general. If sort of fits the above - chemtrails are real because you can't prove they aren't. However here the circle is that every time you make a suggestion for the possible veracity (via mechanism, effect or supposition) of chemtrails and it's rejected, you move onto a new one.
It is fallacious to suppose that there is a causative link between two things simply because they coexist.
What two things? Chem-trails and a plane?
Contrails and government conspiracies.

Your thermal map image was an example also.
This is the fallacy of assuming something is true simply because it hasn't been proven false.
You mean like chem-trails, they are true because you can't prove them false. Yes. No, that's not what I said. I don't know if chem-trails are real, and I certainly would use this reasoning as a proof.
Actually, you've done it repeatedly - by suggesting that they haven't been proven false. You do so in the above post to @Akira AC...

The typical mechanism of a conspiracy theorist is also to assume that people who don't agree with them do so for nefarious reasons - the appeal to motive - as part of the cover-up. Latterly you've been suggesting that people who don't agree with you are doing so because they're not scientists - though you have since suggested that @BobK is doing so because he's "in government"...
@Akira AC No. My argument is based upon the premise that you haven't studied the data to a sufficient degree that you are able to say that you are correct.

Or to put it another way ---> Chem-trails don't exist because you know for certain that.........

I don't expect you to have an answer, because you haven't got one. That's the point.
You have it arse-about-face. It's just Russell's Teapot all over again.

You cannot prove something doesn't exist. You can only prove it does, or fail to do so. It is not beholden upon anyone to prove chemtrails don't exist - it's the responsibility of those who assert that they do to prove that they do.

The video you posted is not evidence of chemtrails because it is logisitically unfeasible to put additives into the fuel of commercial aeroplanes that is not burned by the jet combustion process and remains behind, active, to affect the atmosphere - the planes would crash. A lot. My very first answer to your post summed it up in the simplest possible way.
 
The most obvious reasons chemtrails don't exist have already been stated. The two that stick out to me are:

1. Too many people would have to be in on the conspiracy and the general public would know by now.

2. If a government wanted to pollute citizens there are much more effective means that are already accepted by society.

I'll add that imo people would believe a government who might say they are seeding clouds and that could be right out in the open for all to see, regardless of what chemicals they might actually be using.

A bunch of science or philosophy is not needed to know it's a ridiculous conspiracy theory on many fronts :lol:
 
Why is it that people still try to argue using the "you can't prove it doesn't exist!" argument?
 
Why is it that people still try to argue using the "you can't prove it doesn't exist!" argument?

Because they think it is a clever way to sound intelligent. I actually walked out of a small party last night after a few people started using this train of thought to justify chemtrails. That, and then claiming Snowden is just another conspiracy to distract everyone from the REAL conspiracies.
 
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