China

[Keef]

Some updates on the India-China situation. India really doesn't need to be dealing with this crap at a time when they're modernizing their society at a rapid pace but they're literally on the front lines.



Red phone to China.

 

[Keef]

Old news but apparently China hasn't just been focusing on South China Sea territorial expansion. They've also been doing massive buildups and refurbishments of various airports and airbases along their western and southwestern borders, near disputed territories with India, and very close to other reported territorial excursions within Nepal and Bhutan. The rate at which China can focus resources toward construction efforts like these is impressive. They can build and expand a dozen airbases before the US can even decide what kind of planes to park at the bases we already have.

 

[mustafur]

I am fully in anti-war position, but china complicates things, do we allow them to take over Taiwan?

it's basically a cold war scenario but we are in a clear vision of what China is aiming for here and i don't think it great for world peace to go either direction, the south china sea complicates things even further, but as far as i see it China is in a massive ally disadvantage here and can be easily overwhelmed and I highly doubt either side would go even close to the nuke option.

 

[Keef]

do we allow them to take over Taiwan?

No.

"Survival-threatening situation"

Japan officially refers to Taiwan as Taiwan.

You mention the a new cold war...I don't think China is interested. The difference between China and the Soviets in terms of a cold war is that China actually commands a sizeable portion of the world's economy, a tremendous amount of labor, and huge and effective manufacturing capacity. The Soviets claimed to have all of that but their fall and transition to Russia suggests otherwise. I don't believe China is particularly interested in a cold war because they don't really have to be. The Soviets needed to bide time because they never actually posed a dominant threat outside of the nuclear aspect. That was always the primary concern.

 

[mustafur]

No.

"Survival-threatening situation"

Japan officially refers to Taiwan as Taiwan.

I agree, Taiwan does deserve self determination, which should be defended because honestly they are not in a position to do so, the issue would be what is the cost but it's not good scenario even for the west here.

 

[Dotini]

No.

"Survival-threatening situation"

Japan officially refers to Taiwan as Taiwan.

You mention the a new cold war...I don't think China is interested. The difference between China and the Soviets in terms of a cold war is that China actually commands a sizeable portion of the world's economy, a tremendous amount of labor, and huge and effective manufacturing capacity. The Soviets claimed to have all of that but their fall and transition to Russia suggests otherwise. I don't believe China is particularly interested in a cold war because they don't really have to be. The Soviets needed to bide time because they never actually posed a dominant threat outside of the nuclear aspect. That was always the primary concern.

Multiple news outlets have reported that China has said it will use nuclear weapons first and use them continuously to destroy Japan if it intervenes with Taiwan.

China's 'chilling' threat to Japan

Japan's pledge to 'protect Taiwan as a democratic country' has angered Beijing.

www.nzherald.co.nz

IMHO, China will very soon annex Taiwan, the South China Sea, and multiple locations in and around the Himalayas, and do it without serious opposition. It's a straight power play out of Machiavelli: They have a legit historical claim, "Might makes right and the ends justify the means", and they have no credible opposition.

 

[Keef]

Multiple news outlets have reported that China has said it will use nuclear weapons first and use them continuously to destroy Japan if it intervenes with Taiwan.

China's 'chilling' threat to Japan

Japan's pledge to 'protect Taiwan as a democratic country' has angered Beijing.

www.nzherald.co.nz

Welp.

Milley, ol' buddy, ol' pal, I'm gonna leave this one up to you. I'll owe you a beer.

 

[Keef]

Multiple news outlets have reported that China has said it will use nuclear weapons first and use them continuously to destroy Japan if it intervenes with Taiwan.

China's 'chilling' threat to Japan

Japan's pledge to 'protect Taiwan as a democratic country' has angered Beijing.

www.nzherald.co.nz

IMHO, China will very soon annex Taiwan, the South China Sea, and multiple locations in and around the Himalayas, and do it without serious opposition. It's a straight power play out of Machiavelli: They have a legit historical claim, "Might makes right and the ends justify the means", and they have no credible opposition.

And now in video format.

 

[Keef]

I think we know why China is disrespecting the water rights of their downstream neighbors.

 

[Keef]

Problem: Investors want stability, especially foreign ones. China is probably making a big mistake here which is a good thing. Trump introduced a bit of that instability to the US with his isolationist desires and trade wars and threats to pull out of everything but China is too far gone down the authoritarian route to reverse stuff like this. American companies better pull their money out while they can because they're already starting to get burned.

This is nothing but a good thing for the US in the long run.

 

[HenrySwanson]

(Moved to Covid thread)

 

[Danoff]

I'm just gonna leave this here for anyone who is confused. China says they're communist. China isn't really communist.

 

[Imari]

I'm just gonna leave this here for anyone who is confused. China says they're communist. China isn't really communist.

And hasn't been for decades, if they were ever really communist at all.

 

[Keef]

And hasn't been for decades, if they were ever really communist at all.

Oh they were definitely communist, but then they discovered Western money. And then they discovered hyper-nationalism fascism because all that foreign money started feeling icky.

 

[MIE1992]

Oh they were definitely communist, but then they discovered Western money. And then they discovered hyper-nationalism fascism because all that foreign money started feeling icky.

I think they really started to move away from Communism under Deng Xiaopeng, who introduced "Socialism with Chinese characteristics."

 

[Imari]

Oh they were definitely communist, but then they discovered Western money. And then they discovered hyper-nationalism fascism because all that foreign money started feeling icky.

If you want to call a state that has a ruling party that labels itself as communist, then sure I suppose. That seems not that useful as a definition to me, it's rather self-referential. I'd rather look at whether the state was actually functionally a communist society, in which case it gets pretty murky at best. Hence the "if they ever were at all".

China was a state that was ostensibly trying to work towards becoming a communist society, but really never made it there and the closest they ever really got was authoritarianism that decreed that the people masquerade as communists under the threat of force. Hence ridiculousness like the Great Leap Forward.

Mao may have been ideologically a communist, but he was a totalitarian in practise and you did as you were told or you died. I'm not sure that counts, as the whole point of communism is that the people at a bare minimum hold the economic power - ie. the complete opposite of a totalitarian state. I find it hard to pick any point at which the Chinese people as a whole were voluntarily engaging in a communist society, so I think there's a reasonable argument for it never really being a communist society at all.

Noted however that particularly in America "communist" is shorthand for the USSR, Red China and basically anyone else who was/is some sort of enemy of the state, particularly if they have any sort of tenuous link to socialism. For example, Bernie Sanders. In that sense China absolutely was "communist", but I think that's kind of an abuse of the word and not actually that useful either.

 

[Danoff]

Noted however that particularly in America "communist" is shorthand for the USSR, Red China and basically anyone else who was/is some sort of enemy of the state, particularly if they have any sort of tenuous link to socialism. For example, Bernie Sanders. In that sense China absolutely was "communist", but I think that's kind of an abuse of the word and not actually that useful either.

I brought it up because of this sentiment. As best I can tell, communism is effectively a dead economic principle. There are a few places in the world that are flirting with it, but none of them seem to actually earnestly be trying to achieve it. And I think, at least outwardly, I can only name one that even might truly think it's possible to achieve. It's not China. China's not even flirting with it. They just like the nameplate. That, however, is not stopping the American right-wing from throwing this term around like it's just around the corner about to enslave us all.

It's odd to me how much national identity is tied up with phony claims to an economic system that they don't really use. China is a heavily authoritarian socialist country (as best I can tell). The US is also socialist. So are all of the top 10 GDP countries of the world (India probably being the closest to non-socialist). I doubt many right-wingers would understand that the US and China share an economic structure, even if the details are not the same.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm not sure full-on communism can even exist beyond finite timescales. It seems as though, invariably, the balance of the system gets lopsided and then very quickly it descends into a socio-economic caste system resembling feudalism which then depends on enormous amounts of propaganda to sustain itself. Somebody needs to come up with communism 2.0 which has no human leadership.

 

[Danoff]

I'm not sure full-on communism can even exist beyond finite timescales. It seems as though, invariably, the balance of the system gets lopsided and then very quickly it descends into a socio-economic caste system resembling feudalism which then depends on enormous amounts of propaganda to sustain itself. Somebody needs to come up with communism 2.0 which has no human leadership.

I'd agree that communism can't exist beyond a finite timescale. Divorcing consumption from production (which is the fundamental tenant), is absolute economic folly. I think this is generally understood by economists around the globe at this point.

 

[Keef]

"As a friendly neighbor and sincere friend of Afghanistan..." (emphasis added)



China, buddy ol pal. The Taliban literally forced people to stop marching with the Afghanistan flag on Afghanistan's independence day. Don't you get it? That Taliban doesn't believe in "Afghanistan". Afghanistan doesn't exist anymore.

God damn I really hope ol' Donny Boy talked some sense into everybody's favorite terrorist group. "Tell you what guys, we'll get the heck out of dodge as long as you don't attack us and our people. Then after we're gone you can do whatever the hell you want to do...for example filter over the mountains into China to cause a ruckus. But you didn't hear that from me."

 

[andrea]

 

[Danoff]

...and just like that, an entire generation of children grows up used to breaking the law.

 

[Keef]

...and just like that, an entire generation of children grows up used to breaking the law.

And just like that, offline consoles and video games that can't be tracked suddenly make more sense than they have in 15 years.

 

[TonyJZX]

I think of China as an analog to France.

France is a country that is what it is today due to the consequences of WW2.

Some of us think of France as a nation of 'cowardly soldiers' with that joke of selling rifles 'never been used, dropped once'.

But that couldnt be further from the truth. Prior to the 20th century I dont think France lost any military engagement.

So why is a France a nuclear power and why is France a prolific military force and arms suppler? Its kind of obvious. They dont want a repeat of the recent past.

And China is the same way. They're a 4,000 yr old country that they think has had a dark period for the last few hundred years.

Some of it was own goal but some of it included stuff like a foreign nation going to war with you for the right to sell narcotics to your population! How about a relatively smaller nation invading Manchuria and doing all kinds of diabolical experiments on your population and getting away with it scot free? The world has forgotten but Pepperidge Farm remembers. How can a county that invented gunpowder not have utilitised that for guns? That leads to things like the boxer rebellion/battle of peking.

So China wants to get back what she feels is rightfully 'hers'.

I get why the CCP is the way it is. China today is shaped by the forces of the west. Why does China invest heavilty in armaments? The same reason as France.

Now the China population... they dont have much power, they're the pawns. Its kind of a bread and circuses situation.

If you have a good job and family life and you can save your money and buy material things, a house and a car then what do these events matter to you?

People are obsessed with status and brand names, so what else is new.

But heres a popultion with no access to guns or any form of dissent is crushed by one of the worlds largest armies and surveillence states.

Futher if you have a billion and a half people you could lose 250 mil and still have a billion strong to count on. SO what does it matter?

About Taiwan. One thing I notice is that some of the largest enterprises in CHina orginated in Taiwan. So what would happen in the event of an invasion of Taiwan?

I think CHina is happy with the status quo. They like this uneasy stability.

in the same way there's an uneasy stabiltiy with North Korea. Taiwan and north Korea are buffers for China.

 

[sirjim73]

I think of China as an analog to France.

France is a country that is what it is today due to the consequences of WW2.

Some of us think of France as a nation of 'cowardly soldiers' with that joke of selling rifles 'never been used, dropped once'.

But that couldnt be further from the truth. Prior to the 20th century I dont think France lost any military engagement.

So why is a France a nuclear power and why is France a prolific military force and arms suppler? Its kind of obvious. They dont want a repeat of the recent past.

And China is the same way. They're a 4,000 yr old country that they think has had a dark period for the last few hundred years.

Some of it was own goal but some of it included stuff like a foreign nation going to war with you for the right to sell narcotics to your population! How about a relatively smaller nation invading Manchuria and doing all kinds of diabolical experiments on your population and getting away with it scot free? The world has forgotten but Pepperidge Farm remembers. How can a county that invented gunpowder not have utilitised that for guns? That leads to things like the boxer rebellion/battle of peking.

So China wants to get back what she feels is rightfully 'hers'.

I get why the CCP is the way it is. China today is shaped by the forces of the west. Why does China invest heavilty in armaments? The same reason as France.

Now the China population... they dont have much power, they're the pawns. Its kind of a bread and circuses situation.

If you have a good job and family life and you can save your money and buy material things, a house and a car then what do these events matter to you?

People are obsessed with status and brand names, so what else is new.

But heres a popultion with no access to guns or any form of dissent is crushed by one of the worlds largest armies and surveillence states.

Futher if you have a billion and a half people you could lose 250 mil and still have a billion strong to count on. SO what does it matter?

About Taiwan. One thing I notice is that some of the largest enterprises in CHina orginated in Taiwan. So what would happen in the event of an invasion of Taiwan?

I think CHina is happy with the status quo. They like this uneasy stability.

in the same way there's an uneasy stabiltiy with North Korea. Taiwan and north Korea are buffers for China.

Interesting post and I would agree that the China situation is a lot more complex and influenced by historical events than many people realise.

However, the bit about France and military engagements pre 20th Century - you have heard of this French guy called Napoleon I presume and the Battle of Waterloo, not to mention his attack on Russia which didnt go too well...

 

[Keef]

I think CHina is happy with the status quo. They like this uneasy stability.

I understand your argument about China basically being vengeful. I think many people would agree with that. It's a tale as old as time. Germany did the exact same thing after WW1.

But I absolutely do not agree that China is happy with the status quo, and I don't think any expert would be either. That assumption would be dangerously naive. China's current tactics and escalation have also been documented in textbooks. China has been expressing soft power for quite a while now and in my opinion it's escalated into a soft war. They're actively attempting to take land - they've moved settlers within the boundaries of India, Nepal, and Bhutan for example - and obviously have been building and militarizing the South China Sea with manmade islands and forcing military populations to live there. They've intensified overflights of Taiwan airspace which foils Taiwan's readiness and forces them to use more resources like fuel and maintenance. They're doing the same to completely unrelated countries like the Philippines. They've harassed numerous others with their fishing vessel maritime militia, even as far as South America which is just insane.

China is currently the most aggressive expansionist nation on the planet and their "soft power" has escalated into a full on "soft war" against numerous countries, primarily Taiwan. The only "status quo" that China will ever be happy with is their own, where Taiwan and other disputed territories are all absorbed under the authority on mainland China, despite what the rest of the world's status quo may be. China is the most dangerous country on the planet, full stop.

 

[TonyJZX]

What is amazing to me is that people use terms like 'soft war' to describe china's activities in Africa etc.

I agree that the terms China has negotiated with a lot of Africa is not benefital to Africa then one must ask if the terms are so terrible then its up the US EU IMF to offer a better deal. Like China, Africa also has a long memory and I think that if given the choice of China vs, West colonialism then the choice is obvious.

I personally have no fear of China, I'm not about to be kidnapped by China secret police but I do fear the five eyes and the encroaching surveillance here.

My thoughts on China sort of pale in comparison to the efforts and successes of American regime change in this country, South East Asia and LATAM... and of course Afghanistan.

China has a long way to go on that score. Its easy to talk of China expansion as an American I guess when one doesnt see what America does around the world.

 

[fernandito]

France humiliation and embarrassing performance in ww2 will still resonate throughout time for a while.

And something that sours me about France still to this day. You owe everything to the Americans, as well as many other european countries (but mine). The blood of a whole generation of young american folks can be still smelt in your northen beaches, and not that young (also australian and english, and more, but the bulk was american of course); folks that had to come here to Europe, as usual, to bail you out, and still today most of the people I see (in all of europe) still dismiss the americans as if they had done nothing for us, mocking them, etc, but specially the french are the first to do this, those who should be the first to bow before them and thank them for your freedom.

And I don't see anyone ever talking about this, but did you know that my country, Spain, has been the only one that has defeated the communists in the field at war in Europe?, how many of you knew that, I mean explained that way, not just that we won the war which is what you all know about?

Comunism still is the cancer of modern society, and the only way to live in peace is through military defeat. We spanish know this well; either you defeat them, or prepare to be an slaved poor "citizen" without nothing (because everything you have belongs to the party), and if you refuse to obey then die in the worst ways you can imagine, as they have no morals no nothing. They're just fascists assasins (they call you fascist because you don't want to think like them, let alone obey their credo). You cannot imagine the things they did here before we had to say, "ok, we've come this far". They were killing us and worse, with the goverment blessing (they were in the goverment too), and something had to be done. There was only one way, and we didn't hesitate in doing what needed to be done.

And with China is the same story regardless its power. Either the very people raise against their damned communist political party, or they will be slaves forever.

 

[TonyJZX]

what's communist about china really? its really a authoritarian hyper capitalism where the "CCP" decides who succeeds and fails.

Where's Jack Ma? Where's the slew of billionaire celebs who disappear?

While in the rest of the world billionaires and multinationals control things, this doesnt seem to be the case in CHina.

With regards to France being appreciative of Allied help?

IMO when does it end? When does Germany keep having to be apologising for past sins? What about Japan?

In my opinion France suffered thru this twice, not because they invaded someone else, they were just where the fight was held.

Does Kuwait thank the Allied forces? Or Belgium? Or Poland?

This happened to them and its up to others, as it happens to clear it up.

 

[fernandito]

Its is the chinesse communist party that embraced capitalism, not the people. The party enforces very clear communist laws on society, where they constantly tell you what you have to do and what not (if you don't follow, you will "dissapear"), with the chinese system of good citizen system being the last straw on the life of the people over there.

So technically China still stands as a communist regime, and one of the worse. I don't need to remind anyone that Mao Zedong still holds the record as the biggest murdered in history, closely followed by Stalin, both of them communist systems.

About the germans. They don't have to apologize because it was the nazi that controlled everything. They defiled the honour of the german army, and condemned them to be having to be forever apologizing, something I dissaprove, because one thing was the nazis, and another different one the german army. They also tried to honourable "remove" Hitler from power, always ending in failure. Still, I have to be thankful to the nazis for helping us winning the war against the communits scourge here, but they didn't win the war in the end. It was us. What I'm not going to ever forgive them is for the Jew and other minorities massacres. There's no hell where nazis can be properly punished for that, and that sours me too. Yeah the people of Germany were also responsible for what happened since they voted them, but in the end they still paid for their mistake, and were bombed to hell by allies. Still, it is necessary to undertand the scenario and circumstances that took the nazis to the power via people's vote. You cannot blame the people so..., lightly sometimes.

About Japan. They also paid the price for their mistakes and violence towards others, specially for the massacres on China. Do you really think the americans would be dumb enough to invade the main island after histerical losses they got in the many "skirmishes" on those many islands?, of course there weren't, and they did the necessary to end the war once and for all, saving the lives of maybe millions of their soldiers, and I approve that too. Was it terrible what happened to the humble citizens of those two damned cities?, of course, but war is war. Did you know that the americans were to launch a third strike directly above the emperor's palace?, they quickly raised the white flag, which they didn't while Hirosima and Nagasaki people were literally disintegrated at a molecular level.

And about the french. The society and system we live today still is the aftermath of ww2, so yes, they should be thanking the american sacrifice at the very least until ww3; and not just the french..