Comet Elenin
- Thread starter Dotini
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No offensive, but I am going to echo Foolkiller here a bit more, but also ask why you have been leaning into these more sensational posts that are bordering on psuedoscience and speculation?
You've been at this a while to, where you string some what scientific ideas together but they are backed on less reliable (and sometimes down right questionable) sources, and try to argue as if it could be fact.
It often leads one to beg the question if you've actually studied science, since it seems you miss some of the flaws in the information you call on for support.
In this case, it the materials involved in a comet's construction the primary method's of its luminance have been well understood for a while. And have been verified again and again in the this thread - mostly Water Ice mixed with fairly basic elements. Plasma trails are far out there, even by space standards with the fact we have had some decent observations. And then you tend to just ignore people that aren't clearly in agreement with you.
Dotini
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Comet "construction" and luminescence is precisely what we should be talking about, since these are primary areas of investigation by US and Japanese researchers. Formerly, it had been thought by one and all that comets were "dirty snowballs". But increasingly, as science missions by NASA and others got up close to them, landed upon them, shot projectiles into them, the image, performance and characteristics expected by researchers did not conform to what was expected. It turns out there there are more questions than answers about comets.
I am somewhat computer illiterate, and can't currently figure out how to post photos to this website. I have a Mac, and if anyone with a Mac would PM me with instructions as to how to work it, I will post some interesting photos.
In the meantime, I challenge GTP members to post the best available photos taken on close approach science missions. There was a mission where a copper projectile appeared to excite a large discharge prior to impact that I would like to see.
If all I was going to do was parrot what was known about comets in the 1950's, I wouldn't have posted. I have an inquiring mind and want to know the latest and most interesting new discoveries. So I push the boundaries - I'm a little braver than most, as my racing activities show. So some say I'm foolish to race or to question what was said about comets 50 years ago. Well, I guess I've got enough self-confidence to deal with negativity from the peanut gallery. Incidentally, I may have inadvertantly posted something which contained a link to someone named MacCannery, or something like that. Never heard of him earlier than a couple of days ago, and never saw his video.
I'd like this thread to be a model of polite discussion about the nature of Comet Elenin, and of comets in general. I think we should use only the best resources. Primary resources are best in my view. By that I mean research by qualified people and agencies. I think empirical evidence is the best - observations are to be favored over theories - observations that can be verified by experiment and additional observations. As a true libertarian, I have an innate distrust of those who set themselves up as authorities and ask us to trust them simply because they "know better". In other words, show me the data, I'd like to make up my own mind.
If it turns out that comets are made only of inert dirty ice and snow, fine with me. If it turns out they are made of something else, that should be fine with you. It's not like comets are a religion, and subject to a priori beliefs and prejudices. Is it asking too much of an audience of mostly grown-ups to wonder why NASA and others are sending expensive missions to comets if the answers were already known?
If you can accept that there are genuine questions about comets, and that honest educated people in and out of NASA have differing ideas about them, then we ought to be able to have a semblance of a polite and interesting conversation about them here, notwithstanding the trolls, thugs, low-lifes, knuckledragging morons, bigots and dinosaurs we are always obliged to tolerate if not respond to.
I had originally posted about Elenin in the Astronomy and Cosmology thread, but it didn't receive a peep for days. When I posted in the opinions forum, I admittedly spiced it up too much, hoping to revive a quiet forum at the time. Little did I appreciate what an avalanche of interest it would stir!
Yes, comets are interesting, sometimes dangerous, vastly entertaining, and seem to provoke primal responses in the gut of Man. They are in the core of our world mythologies, interwoven in the life of Earth and Man. It's easy to get excited about them, so let's calm down, and look at them objectively.
Let's start posting more photos and recent mission reviews, if you please.
Regards,
Dotini
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Dotini
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http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/09feb_stardustnext/
Nice shots of Tempel, and the "flash".
Notice the artifact labeled "powdery flow?"? Could this be an electrical discharge related to the impact/flash event?
Nice shots of Tempel, and the "flash".
Notice the artifact labeled "powdery flow?"? Could this be an electrical discharge related to the impact/flash event?
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- 295
baby blue comet comet holmes displays an expanding dust cloud (left) and some finer structures within the debris (right) david jewitt
.
it's not too late to check out the "exploding" comet, 17p/holmes. Discovered in 1892, the comet grew about half a million times brighter in late october of this year. It's the largest known outburst by a comet.
17p/holmes is now larger than the sun and visible to the naked eye in the constellation perseus. Viewed through binoculars or a small telescope, it looks like a fuzzy ball. Sky & telescope has continuous updates on the comet and how to spot it.—dawn stover
by dawn stover
posted 11.16.2007 at 2:29 pm
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- 24,553
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After reading that I am left wondering why I seem to be the only one not surprised that an object with an orbit that goes through the innermost parts of the solar system and back out beyond Pluto (That I will cling to) appears to contain materials found from all over the place? If any objects were to pick up a good mix of crap I would think it could be a comet.
Reading Dotini's article about Stardust-NExT detecting amino acids that are necessary to create life in one comet makes me immediately think of the seeding theory of life. What if natural planetary formation does not bring all these building blocks together, but transitory orbital objects (is that the right term) such as comets pick them up from their natural places throughout the system during or just after primordial stages of the solar system? And then in the following billions of years those materials are deposited on planets through dust trails in the tails or impacts? Eventually, one of those planetary objects is in a habitability zone and gets enough of the materials gathered at one time while it is in the first stages of development post primordial cooling and then those materials create the first life in the system.
I'm just a guy who hates his job and loves his family with a telecom degree, but my own ponderings show me why we need to understand more about comets. For one it takes a lot less money and time than probes to get a look at material from all over the solar system, and it could reveal more about us and Earth than we can find with our feet stuck to the ground.
My guess would be that:
- 295
You have deduced half the puzzle, the other half was the climatological timing on Earth, when all these materials were combined to form life-like organisms, which evolved into what we are surrounded by today.
Regards.
- 24,553
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- GTP_FoolKiller
- FoolKiller1979
Clearly the timing is important. Otherwise we are just destroying.altering the materials. However, I believe that timing is almost granted from what I think we know of how the universe is formed. Earth would be getting to just the right point to support early forms of life before all the final bombardment stages ended. Sort of hitting like the last few kernels of popcorn in the microwave. Frequent enough to bring stuff in close enough together to make something, but spaced out enough to not destroy any chances of anything ever surviving. Any extinction level impacts would be like that rare last kernel popping into your face just as you open the bag. It hurts and you spill your bag, losing most of it, but some still survives.
Yes, I just compared the beginnings of life on Earth and how it may relate to comets to microwave popcorn. Popcorn is a universal metaphor.
As much fun as this is, there is a proper complaint process if you have an issue with mods and/or admins. Public disputes rarely end well for the average user.
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Dotini
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Nice insight there, Foolkiller. The "seeding theory" of life on Earth is more formally known as "Panspermia". It is one of the many controversial concepts of that great maverick British scientist, Sir Fred Hoyle, Astronomer Royal.
I'm enamored of him because he wrote a nifty sci-book, "The Black Cloud", about living intelligence in cosmic plasma, back in 1957. Despite much criticism, he also maintained the notion of the steady-state universe.
cheers,
Dotini
- 295
The jist of the message came across just fine, regardless.
From my understanding, when all the materials were in the black goo on earth's surface, during the calming/cooling/stabilization period, it was within a very, very slim threshold (.000000001, I'll have to double check this) probabillity of combining and setting off the chain of events for lifes' origin.
I find that pretty spectacular & fascinating. I mean we could have missed the boat that easily, and probably ended up like Jupiter or Saturn. Who knows?
It's just amazing to grasp.
- 12,298
- Ealing-London
COMET!!!! Pretty thing in the sky, oooooh! How about we talk about that for a bit eh? And how about instead of talking about what it COULD be, we talk about what it IS? I'm getting mighty fed up of this childishness and bs that is ruining what could have been a really interesting thread.
*edit*
I think some posts were just removed. Makes me look like a raving looney but we're back on topic.
Good job.
*edit*
I think some posts were just removed. Makes me look like a raving looney but we're back on topic.
Good job.
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blaaah
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I just wanted to put in some concise information about comets and asteroids:
After the solar system was created with the Sun and our planets and moons that we know well, There were quite a lot of spare parts left over, some mostly rock others mostly ice. There are small lumps of actual rock in the asteroid belt, but most of the left-over stuff is the dirty ice lumps. Most of these lumps exist in the Oort cloud. A vast thinly spread mass, ranging in size from pebbles to the size of Pluto. The Oort cloud begins about the region of the orbit of Pluto (Pluto considered actually an object of the Oort cloud itself) and goes way way out beyond, perhaps 3 light years away, 2 thirds the distance to our nearest star...
If you travelled to the cloud it's so thinly spread you wouldn't likely see anything.
The cloud lumps slowly orbit the sun taking millions of years.
The lumps can be influenced by the pull of other stars and even the galaxy itself as a whole, and they can have their paths changed.
But once every 35 million years an actual star passes through the cloud causing chaos.
There iare other big disturbance events as well, called Giant molecular Clouds, huge accumulations of cold hydrogen with masses that can be a million times that of our Sun. Easily enough to shake out lumps of ice from a great distance indeed.
When a lump breaks away from it's Oort cloud orbit and into our interior solar system it becomes known as a comet.
The Earth expects to see a giant impact (dinosaur killer size) about once every hundred million years.
The other impact risk is from asteroids.
There are about 8000 known asteroids, about 400 of these come close to or actually crosses the path of Earth's orbit.
I have mentioned Jupiter before as an ambiguous friend to us. It has a strong gravitational field that can effect the asteroid belt. It has saved us countless times as it almost always sucks up all the incoming rocks and ice lumps. But Jupiter has also been said to be a possible cause of the asteroid that triggered the mass extinction of the dinosaurs. It could do the same for us.
After the solar system was created with the Sun and our planets and moons that we know well, There were quite a lot of spare parts left over, some mostly rock others mostly ice. There are small lumps of actual rock in the asteroid belt, but most of the left-over stuff is the dirty ice lumps. Most of these lumps exist in the Oort cloud. A vast thinly spread mass, ranging in size from pebbles to the size of Pluto. The Oort cloud begins about the region of the orbit of Pluto (Pluto considered actually an object of the Oort cloud itself) and goes way way out beyond, perhaps 3 light years away, 2 thirds the distance to our nearest star...
If you travelled to the cloud it's so thinly spread you wouldn't likely see anything.
The cloud lumps slowly orbit the sun taking millions of years.
The lumps can be influenced by the pull of other stars and even the galaxy itself as a whole, and they can have their paths changed.
But once every 35 million years an actual star passes through the cloud causing chaos.
There iare other big disturbance events as well, called Giant molecular Clouds, huge accumulations of cold hydrogen with masses that can be a million times that of our Sun. Easily enough to shake out lumps of ice from a great distance indeed.
When a lump breaks away from it's Oort cloud orbit and into our interior solar system it becomes known as a comet.
The Earth expects to see a giant impact (dinosaur killer size) about once every hundred million years.
The other impact risk is from asteroids.
There are about 8000 known asteroids, about 400 of these come close to or actually crosses the path of Earth's orbit.
I have mentioned Jupiter before as an ambiguous friend to us. It has a strong gravitational field that can effect the asteroid belt. It has saved us countless times as it almost always sucks up all the incoming rocks and ice lumps. But Jupiter has also been said to be a possible cause of the asteroid that triggered the mass extinction of the dinosaurs. It could do the same for us.
Dotini
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http://www.kva-engineering.com/solar.php
Here is an interesting photo of transformer at the Salem nuclear power plant burned up due to an electrical discharge from the Sun in 1989. An even worse solar storm, the Carrington Event, occurred in 1859, and caused fires in telegraph offices all over the US and Europe.
"A 1921 event wiped out telegraph service east of the Mississippi. The currents induced in some telegraph wires were so strong that numerous fires were caused and several operators were injured by exploding consoles. Radio reception was completely lost in New Zealand, but was strengthened in Europe. Auroras were seen as far south as Puerto Rico".
Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
Here is an interesting photo of transformer at the Salem nuclear power plant burned up due to an electrical discharge from the Sun in 1989. An even worse solar storm, the Carrington Event, occurred in 1859, and caused fires in telegraph offices all over the US and Europe.
"A 1921 event wiped out telegraph service east of the Mississippi. The currents induced in some telegraph wires were so strong that numerous fires were caused and several operators were injured by exploding consoles. Radio reception was completely lost in New Zealand, but was strengthened in Europe. Auroras were seen as far south as Puerto Rico".
Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
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That is without a doubt the worst, yet most common misuse of the word "theory" that can happen in a scientific discussion.
A theory is not "Hey, I think I know what happened here. . . ." A Theory is a well-supported peer-reviewed conclusion based on and drawn from a large body of observable and repeatable evidence. In the world of Science, no idea can reach a higher status than becoming a Theory.
I know you intended it in the "Hey, I think I know what happened here. . . ." mode, but in Science, that's just not what Theory means. That's why I don't like seeing the word used in this context in this manner. Gravity is a theory, Relativity is a theory, so they're not quite right, huh? Yet your GPS device works by comparing relative differences in clock speeds in satellites held in place by gravity, with an astonishing level of accuracy because those "theories" are so well understood.
Dotini
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You ignore that I answered your feverish request for further corroboration of telegraphy fires during solar storms, and stoop to insult the intelligence of every educated person by saying gravity is a theory.
Newton's laws of gravity are well observed here on Earth, but misbehave at the scale of galactic arms.
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- 5,080
- Panama City, FL
Newton described the effect of gravity as a formula, but had no clue as to the mechanics of gravity, what it was that actually made gravity affect things the way it does, what is in them that causes the attraction he described. That area of study is the theory to which I refer.
And what I said in post 48 was not a request for more telegraph wire damage information, it was an explanation that such damage is not a direct effect of solar activity, strictly speaking. There is no "electrical discharge" from the sun (as you described it) that melts wires, like some cosmic lightning strike. What happens is the higher volume of charged particles (not electricity) affects the magnetic field of Earth, and certain conditions come together to turn power grids or telegraph and telephone lines into dynamos, and magnetically-induced currents severely overload the lines. Particles, magnetic effect, induction, high current, overloaded lines. The line has 10, 20, 50 times (I've not seen the actual number, even as a guess) the amperage is supoosed to carry, and it turns into a fuse (melts.) Now it's laying on the ground still carrying current, and carrying a very high temperature, so the surrounding environment gets toasted. That's the sequence, and that's what I tried to say before.
I did NOT argue that the effect did not happen, just that your explanation of it (electrical discharge) was incorrect. the final effect was electrical, but the cause was not. The electrical discharge didn't come from the sun, it was induced in the lines by the magnetic effect of the charged particles that were produced by the sun.
And what I said in post 48 was not a request for more telegraph wire damage information, it was an explanation that such damage is not a direct effect of solar activity, strictly speaking. There is no "electrical discharge" from the sun (as you described it) that melts wires, like some cosmic lightning strike. What happens is the higher volume of charged particles (not electricity) affects the magnetic field of Earth, and certain conditions come together to turn power grids or telegraph and telephone lines into dynamos, and magnetically-induced currents severely overload the lines. Particles, magnetic effect, induction, high current, overloaded lines. The line has 10, 20, 50 times (I've not seen the actual number, even as a guess) the amperage is supoosed to carry, and it turns into a fuse (melts.) Now it's laying on the ground still carrying current, and carrying a very high temperature, so the surrounding environment gets toasted. That's the sequence, and that's what I tried to say before.
I did NOT argue that the effect did not happen, just that your explanation of it (electrical discharge) was incorrect. the final effect was electrical, but the cause was not. The electrical discharge didn't come from the sun, it was induced in the lines by the magnetic effect of the charged particles that were produced by the sun.
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"charge" != "electricity"
Once again, the electrical effects on Earth from solar storms, coronal mass ejections, etc. are magnetic effects, not direct electrical effects. Yes, where you have electricity you can have magnetism, and vice versa, but they are not the same force, and you can't just skip one in favor of the other.
Prattle on with your pseudo-science, maybe you'l find an appreciative audience. I will not be among them.
And spell my name right. . . It's right there on the page 10 or 15 times. KThxBye
Once again, the electrical effects on Earth from solar storms, coronal mass ejections, etc. are magnetic effects, not direct electrical effects. Yes, where you have electricity you can have magnetism, and vice versa, but they are not the same force, and you can't just skip one in favor of the other.
Prattle on with your pseudo-science, maybe you'l find an appreciative audience. I will not be among them.
And spell my name right. . . It's right there on the page 10 or 15 times. KThxBye
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Newton's Laws are nothing more than theories that we refer to as laws because of how they were named back when they were postulated. It has nothing to do with them being fact on Earth and falling apart at the galactic scale, because that is also false. Newton's Laws fall apart at the quantum level and levels were relativity can be applied, neither of which require you to leave the solar system.
As he pointed out, charge does not equal electricity. It was a chain series of events that resulted in the damage to those transformers, which was ultimately done by the geomagnetics of the Earth, which was modified as a result of the Sun. Certainly not the Sun created radiation that melted stuff.
Dotini
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Adults only to link here, please. Potentially disturbing information. Not for children or the weak-minded.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-huge-space-storm-will-cause-devastation.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...anned-to-provide-space-weather-forecasts.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...-huge-space-storm-will-cause-devastation.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...anned-to-provide-space-weather-forecasts.html
Dotini
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In the articles on the dangers of solar storms will be found further reference to the charged particles causing these dangers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charged_particle
In physics, a charged particle is a particle with an electric charge. It may be either a subatomic particle or an ion. A collection of charged particles, or even a gas containing a proportion of charged particles, is called a plasma, which is called the fourth state of matter because its properties are quite different from solids, liquids and gases (plasma is the most common state of matter in the universe). Particles either have a positive, negative or no charge (being neutral).
Their effects go beyond the laboratory (see aurora borealis).
An interesting thing about Comet Elenin is its period. It's been cruising interstellar space for ~38,000 years, and will have built up a massive negative charge. If and as we sweep through it's plasma and debris trail(s), we could experience unusual electrical effects - perhaps an enhanced aurora borealis?
Right now Comet Elenin is approaching the asteroid belt. When it emerges, new observations may detect orbital changes caused by interactions with bodies in the asteroid belt.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_d-gs0WoUw
There's a lot of objects floating around in space, ones that continuously pass closer by the Earth than some comet.
Yes, the sun does release huge amounts of protons and electrons in solar storms, but it's not the charged particles themselves that are inducting current into wires. It's the changing magnetic field. It's not like you have electrons somehow zapping power lines and transformers.
There's a lot of objects floating around in space, ones that continuously pass closer by the Earth than some comet.
Yes, the sun does release huge amounts of protons and electrons in solar storms, but it's not the charged particles themselves that are inducting current into wires. It's the changing magnetic field. It's not like you have electrons somehow zapping power lines and transformers.
Dotini
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Yes, the Sun affects Earth in many ways. Here's another, the flux transfer event, or FTE: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2008/30oct_ftes/
During the time it takes you to read this article, something will happen high overhead that until recently many scientists didn't believe in. A magnetic portal will open, linking Earth to the sun 93 million miles away. Tons of high-energy particles may flow through the opening before it closes again, around the time you reach the end of the page.
"It's called a flux transfer event or 'FTE,'" says space physicist David Sibeck of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "Ten years ago I was pretty sure they didn't exist, but now the evidence is incontrovertible."
Researchers have long known that the Earth and sun must be connected. Earth's magnetosphere (the magnetic bubble that surrounds our planet) is filled with particles from the sun that arrive via the solar wind and penetrate the planet's magnetic defenses. They enter by following magnetic field lines that can be traced from terra firma all the way back to the sun's atmosphere.
"We used to think the connection was permanent and that solar wind could trickle into the near-Earth environment anytime the wind was active," says Sibeck. "We were wrong. The connections are not steady at all. They are often brief, bursty and very dynamic."
As an individual, I am SO appreciative of NASA and its staff of engineers, technicians and scientists who bring us these discoveries. As a species, I feel we are merely at the threshold of appreciating our full relationship to the cosmos.
The Comet Elenin should pass millions of miles away from Earth, so not the slightest danger of impact exists. The only concern may be the plasma tail which could excite the aurora borealis or RF interference, or some debris spread out into a tail which briefly brushes the Earth.
Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
During the time it takes you to read this article, something will happen high overhead that until recently many scientists didn't believe in. A magnetic portal will open, linking Earth to the sun 93 million miles away. Tons of high-energy particles may flow through the opening before it closes again, around the time you reach the end of the page.
"It's called a flux transfer event or 'FTE,'" says space physicist David Sibeck of the Goddard Space Flight Center. "Ten years ago I was pretty sure they didn't exist, but now the evidence is incontrovertible."
Researchers have long known that the Earth and sun must be connected. Earth's magnetosphere (the magnetic bubble that surrounds our planet) is filled with particles from the sun that arrive via the solar wind and penetrate the planet's magnetic defenses. They enter by following magnetic field lines that can be traced from terra firma all the way back to the sun's atmosphere.
"We used to think the connection was permanent and that solar wind could trickle into the near-Earth environment anytime the wind was active," says Sibeck. "We were wrong. The connections are not steady at all. They are often brief, bursty and very dynamic."
As an individual, I am SO appreciative of NASA and its staff of engineers, technicians and scientists who bring us these discoveries. As a species, I feel we are merely at the threshold of appreciating our full relationship to the cosmos.
The Comet Elenin should pass millions of miles away from Earth, so not the slightest danger of impact exists. The only concern may be the plasma tail which could excite the aurora borealis or RF interference, or some debris spread out into a tail which briefly brushes the Earth.
Respectfully submitted,
Dotini
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