Confederate Flag

[Tornado]

I don't even think those two shows get any airtime.

Then again.. I didn't think The Dukes of Hazzard was still getting airtime.

It basically plays half the day on CMT last I knew.

 

[Adamgp]

It hasn't been on CMT in a while now, even before the shooting. It's not even scheduled to air at least for the next 2 weeks.

 

[wfooshee]

I've never viewed the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism or of slavery. No offense to the OP (God forbid I should offend someone!!! ) but I've always seen it as a redneck symbol.

"Mah pickup truck goes through deeper mud than yores do and carries more huntin' dawgs. It's a Ford, too, so you shut up about that piece o' trash Chevy you drive!"

Going beyond that, it might could be seen as a symbol of Southern pride, and I can almost buy into that.

"Ah'm from the South, where gentlemen is gentlemen and still treat ladies right! We's polite, and as long as the tea is sweet, we's happy heah!"

What I never quite understood is that it's not even a national flag, but a battle flag. And not even for the whole Confederacy initially, but for a single Army unit. Even if it WAS a national flag for the Confederacy, they LOST! Why do so many people want to fly the loser's flag??!?!?!? Yet these days your huntin' truck is not properly equipped without one across the back window.

But trying to erase it from history is simply stupid. History is history and facts are facts, and being "uncomfortable" with that is a problem for the person who feels uncomfortable, and not for society as a whole.

 

[LeMansAid]

I've never viewed the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism or of slavery. No offense to the OP (God forbid I should offend someone!!! ) but I've always seen it as a redneck symbol.

I can't blame you. I think there's even quite a separation between flaggers and non-flaggers in general.

I remember having to borrow someone's trailer at one point. It had an Australian flag attached to it, and I felt instantly afflicted by our collective bogan appearance. To be honest, it caught me by surprise. I hadn't realised how much of an association I had developed.

Flags in general are just not my thing. Use 'em at your own peril I reckon - that "peril" being that you'll likely be seen to be supporting the most commonly thought of application for that flag. Don't want to run the risk? Use a more specific flag. Or how about this novel idea?.... Don't go thinking that you need to announce yourself to a whole heap of people who probably don't give a rat's about what you think - and rather let your thoughts be known in person to the ones that maybe do.

 

[GTsail]

South Carolina Senators voted 37-3 to remove the Confederate Battle Flag from the State House grounds

SC Senators 37-3 flag vote

IMO this was a welcome and significant sign that South Carolina's Legislature has finally decided that it is time to remove the Confederate Battle Flag from the State House grounds.

The South Carolina House has not yet voted on this issue, but are likely to tomorrow

The vote needs to have a two-thirds majority in order to pass and have the Flag removed.

 

[GTsail]

After 13 hours of debate, the South Carolina House has voted 94-20 to remove the Confederate Battle Flag from the SC State House grounds.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/south-carolinas-confederate-flag-is-finally-coming-down-—-and-itll-soon-be-in-a-museum/ar-AAcJPvW?ocid=HPCDHP

An impassioned speech by SC Rep. Jenny Horne helped make the case for the Flag's removal. I will try to find a link to her speech.

The Flag is expected to be removed tomorrow and is likely to be moved to a museum.

 

[Swagger897]

wow.....

I've tried to type up something to say for the past hour almost, but I've been constantly deleting it because of all the things I can think of to say (deleted some of this line too)...

I dunno... I typed this line three times at least and still don't know what to say...

 

[TenEightyOne]

wow.....

I've tried to type up something to say for the past hour almost, but I've been constantly deleting it because of all the things I can think of to say (deleted some of this line too)...

I dunno... I typed this line three times at least and still don't know what to say...

I know how you feel, I was very happy too

It's like a whole chunk of society finally admitted that being proud of history (good or bad) is one thing but that perpetuating division simply has no place in a modern, forward-thinking world.

 

[GTsail]

Here is the speech given by SC Rep. Jenny Horne:

http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4543474/rep-jenny-horne-confederate-flag-speech

Wow!👍

 

[Sanji Himura]

I know how you feel, I was very happy too

It's like a whole chunk of society finally admitted that being proud of history (good or bad) is one thing but that perpetuating division simply has no place in a modern, forward-thinking world.

But not acknowledging history, good or bad, can be just as dangerous, if not more, than being proud of it.

Take for example, King Tut (the Egyptian king). The curse on his grave is blamed for the deaths of at least 5 people when it was discovered, but yet that side of history is forgotten today because of the shiny objects that we pulled from his burial site, The Valley of the Kings.

By completely white washing the civil war from our history books, the countless lives on both sides of the war will ultimately be forgotten because if the root cause of the war is white washed, then the red blood that followed will do the same.

 

[Swagger897]

I know how you feel, I was very happy too

It's like a whole chunk of society finally admitted that being proud of history (good or bad) is one thing but that perpetuating division simply has no place in a modern, forward-thinking world.

That's not what I was thinking at all really..

It's a flag, made by cloth, and two metal gromets. What part of hate or racism against blacks do you see on that flag? I don't see anything. Do people honestly care about history that much, or is it a different point they are trying to prove? If we have to take down a public displayed monument, then such item should be taken out of all public school literature and media. Obviously those for the removing of the flag don't care to be taught about it, so why is it even covered at all? Nah... maybe history won't repeat itself again....

maybe.....

 

[GTsail]

What part of hate or racism against blacks do you see on that flag? I don't see anything.

The part where the flag was raised in 1961 to support racial segregation.

The part where the flag was flown by the Northern Army of Virginia as the Army killed Union soldiers in an effort to promote the Confederacy's war aims to continue slavery in the South.

If we have to take down a public displayed monument, then such item should be taken out of all public school literature and media. Obviously those for the removing of the flag don't care to be taught about it, so why is it even covered at all?

Why should the Flag be removed from public school literature?

Shouldn't students be taught that the Flag was used as a symbol to promote slavery and racial segregation?

IMO, students should be taught about the Civil War and its impact on the United States, and about how various symbols/flags were used during the War.

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[Danoff]

The part where the flag was raised in 1961 to support racial segregation.

The part where the flag was flown by the Northern Army of Virginia as the Army killed Union soldiers in an effort to promote the Confederacy's war aims to continue slavery in the South.

This response isn't necessarily aimed at you, yours was just a convenient jumping off point for what I wanted to say.

The confederate flag may be a symbol of racism to some who fly it, but I think those people have more direct symbols of racism (white hoods perhaps). Ultimately the civil war was about a threatened way of life in the south. Yes that way of life involved slavery, but because the dependence of slavery was broken down regionally, it also became about regional pride. It really was seen as north vs. south rather than just about particular political battles. Flying the confederate flag, for some, is like flying a sports team's flag or banner. It's regional pride. They see a distinction between the culture of the south and the culture of the north, and they have pride in their region.

Territorial tribal organization, pride, and ultimately defense is so fundamentally human that no one should be surprised at this kind of response. People love to belong to groups, republican, democrat, christian, muslim, texan, new yorker, north, south, and yes even white and black. It's easy and lazy to look at the confederate flag and label everyone who flies it as a racist. It's a little more nuanced to realize that the flag has a deeper, more tribal meaning to many of the people who fly it, and that it represents a way of life that they have tied their self-identity into.

Not that I think that's a great mentality by the way, drawing a line in the sand to separate these people from those people is a way of dehumanizing others, even if it's not black vs. white, north vs. south is still a form of that. But it's also a big part of American culture (this is MY state, that's MY sports team, this is the alcohol WE drink, these are the cars WE drive, this is the music WE listen to). Yes we're evolving away from that socially, and yes that's progress. But let's not be so quick to stigmatize and label, because it's not as simple as that.

 

[Swagger897]

The part where the flag was raised in 1961 to support racial segregation.

The part where the flag was flown by the Northern Army of Virginia as the Army killed Union soldiers in an effort to promote the Confederacy's war aims to continue slavery in the South.

Is that what the flag means? Or did you just list the actions of various people throughout history...

Shouldn't students be taught that the Flag was used as a symbol to promote slavery and racial segregation?

Was it?

 

[TenEightyOne]

The confederate flag may be a symbol of racism to some who fly it, but I think those people have more direct symbols of racism (white hoods perhaps)

Of course, and if white pointèd hoods were part of the South Carolina judicial uniform (for example) then the groundswell against the tradition would have come sooner and more strongly.

It's a flag, made by cloth, and two metal gromets. What part of hate or racism against blacks do you see on that flag? I don't see anything.

Then you should probably study the history a little more, and perhaps the nature of flags and symbols in human culture. I don't know any red-white-and-blue people but I know many for whom a sniff of the flag of the Union makes them snort and cavort with British pride.

Take the Swastika flag as another example. Around a third of Germans voted for Adolf Hitler in the last "free" election he entered. Many of those believed in his National Socialist vision for Germany, and probably quite rightly so - on paper Germany was to become a magnanimous, benign, social-and-technological giant. The Swastika-on-red was their flag too despite them having no part (or wish for a part) in the darker schemes and the things that Nazism eventually became in some of its quarters.

I see the Confederate flag the same way. There will have been good, honest, loving people who adored the flag and their homes for all the right reasons. That doesn't mean it should remain as anything other than historical artifact.

Was it (used as a symbol to promote slavery and racial segregation)?

Yes, it's one of the flags of the Confederacy - you must know that.

She was received into the confederacy with her own constitution under the guarantee of the federal constitution and the compact of annexation, that she should enjoy these blessings. She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery–the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits–a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. That in this free government all white men are and of right ought to be entitled to equal civil and political rights; that the servitude of the African race, as existing in these States, is mutually beneficial to both bond and free, and is abundantly authorized and justified by the experience of mankind, and the revealed will of the Almighty Creator, as recognized by all Christian nations; while the destruction of the existing relations between the two races, as advocated by our sectional enemies, would bring inevitable calamities upon both and desolation upon the fifteen slave-holding States.

 

[Swagger897]

Take the Swastika flag as another example. Around a third of Germans voted for Adolf Hitler in the last "free" election he entered. Many of those believed in his National Socialist vision for Germany, and probably quite rightly so - on paper Germany was to become a magnanimous, benign, social-and-technological giant. The Swastika-on-red was their flag too despite them having no part (or wish for a part) in the darker schemes and the things that Nazism eventually became in some of its quarters.

To be honest, Hitler wasn't that bad of a leader as far as politics go...

But anyways... I personally don't fly backwards and gasp at the same time I see the flag.... It's more like, "Ohh look, you don't see that everywhere"... and it's going to soon be "wow, that's the last one I'm ever going to see" if people keep over-reacting...

 

[GTsail]

Territorial tribal organization, pride, and ultimately defense is so fundamentally human that no one should be surprised at this kind of response. People love to belong to groups, republican, democrat, christian, muslim, texan, new yorker, north, south, and yes even white and black. It's easy and lazy to look at the confederate flag and label everyone who flies it as a racist. It's a little more nuanced to realize that the flag has a deeper, more tribal meaning to many of the people who fly it, and that it represents a way of life that they have tied their self-identity into.

Not that I think that's a great mentality by the way, drawing a line in the sand to separate these people from those people is a way of dehumanizing others, even if it's not black vs. white, north vs. south is still a form of that. But it's also a big part of American culture (this is MY state, that's MY sports team, this is the alcohol WE drink, these are the cars WE drive, this is the music WE listen to). Yes we're evolving away from that socially, and yes that's progress. But let's not be so quick to stigmatize and label, because it's not as simple as that.

I'm in agreement with what you say^^^^

Human tribal organization does seem to be ingrained in all of us, and is part of many human interactions.

As you point out, many organizations stem from the need to band together for a common defense (a quite laudatory purpose:tup:).

All the various sport rivalries seem to be an off-shoot of this:
East/West and North/South football games
American vrs National League All-Star baseball games
Country rivalries during the Olympic games
Etc/Etc.

However, I just feel that to continue to promote a North/South rivalry based upon a Confederate Battle Flag overlooks the sad history of the Civil War aims of the Confederate Armies and the overall aim of the States to continue the practice of slavery when they joined the Confederacy. As such, I don't think that it is appropriate for a State Government to fly such a symbol of racial discrimination.

Flying the confederate flag, for some, is like flying a sports team's flag or banner. It's regional pride. They see a distinction between the culture of the south and the culture of the north, and they have pride in their region.

Can't we come up with a different flag/symbol to promote southern culture that doesn't use the Confederate Battle Flag which brings along a huge amount of discriminatory baggage left over from the Civil War?

Respectfully,
GTsail

 

[BobK]

Can't we come up with a different flag/symbol to promote southern culture that doesn't use the Confederate Battle Flag which brings along a huge amount of discriminatory baggage left over from the Civil War?

Respectfully,
GTsail

I'm afraid that for better or for worse, the South will always be associated with slavery. So any new symbol representing the South will eventually be seen by some as promoting slavery.

 

[CAMAROBOY69]

I see you are from Texas, yes?

I was born and raised in Texas, starting when Truman was in his first term, and people were still griping about the Civil War and valorizing lost heroes. I've seen a lot of Confederate flags but never owned one.

In more recent years decades living in liberal Seattle, I've seen the stars and bars employed more as a symbol of general youthful rebellion than as a symbol of "the South shall rise again!" or any overt racism.

My advice is to quietly fold it away before somebody rips it off or otherwise victimizes you when you least need it.

I was also born and raised for the early portion of my life in Texas. Have lived in Michigan for the last 28 years. I have NEVER viewed or known anyone that viewed the Confederate flag as any form of racism. I have also always seen it more of a form of rebellion. Aka Dukes of Hazzard. I personally don't own any confederate flags. Probably have a few on some General Lee model cars somewhere in the basement. I know I have some on the Dodge Chargers in the Forza games that others have painted onto the car.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I'm afraid that for better or for worse, the South will always be associated with slavery. So any new symbol representing the South will eventually be seen by some as promoting slavery.

We all know what this flag evolved into and this flag was flown while the first President of the entire United States, who became a slave owner at the age of 11, owned slaves. In fact he owned more than 100. Oh dear, now what do we do?

 

[TenEightyOne]

We all know what this flag evolved into and this flag was flown while the first President of the entire United States, who became a slave owner at the age of 11, owned slaves. In fact he owned more than 100. Oh dear, now what do we do?

We keep it in a museum, don't we?

 

[Johnnypenso]

We keep it in a museum, don't we?

It evolved into this:

Only a matter of time before the pc police come calling.

Did anyone inform Amazon that they are supporting slavery?:
http://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000I1Q3V6/?tag=gtplanetca-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003I68Z78/?tag=gtplanet-20

 

[Leonidae@MFT]

They should get over it and legalize marijuana.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It evolved into this:

Yes, Old Glory's in the Smithsonian isn't it? You're comparing the ownership of 100 slaves with the segregational statements of the Confederacy and think that selling Old Glory replicas is somehow re-enabling them? Blimey...

 

[Garage13]

Johnny in case you fell asleep after that part in history class that flag evolved BECAUSE We GAINED new states.Also slavery isn't unique to america,matter of fact both blacks and whites not only fought in the civil war but also both owned slaves.Slavery in the form of the 1800's and before is dead.Has been for over a century.
What has replaced that slavery is economic.you have a perpetual underclass of illegals and to a certain extent blacks and whites.

Now bear in mind slavery in any form is morally wrong
Being oppressed by a government is in many respects is just like being a slave.If you're raised to think government is the source of your freedoms than you're right your country's flag is a symbol of slavery.
The confederates thought the north was an oppressive government.The constitution says that we the people have the right to remove any oppressive government in this country.we have the right to bear arms and form militias in order to keep a government from getting to that point.
One can argue that the people who ever puts symbolizim puts his/her mentality,emotions and beliefs into that symbol,therefore it means something to that person.the stars and bars can represent anything from being proud from where you're from to being oppressed even though you've never been through that part of history.

Answer these three questions:
1.What's more hurtful? someone who knows he/she's a slave and figures out a way to overcome it or someone who's blissfully unaware that he is in chains?
2.Which one are you?
3.Can you change the past

 

[Swagger897]

@Garage13

You care to explain how we gained some of those states??....

 

[Sanji Himura]

Johnny in case you fell asleep after that part in history class that flag evolved BECAUSE We GAINED new states.Also slavery isn't unique to america,matter of fact both blacks and whites not only fought in the civil war but also both owned slaves.Slavery in the form of the 1800's and before is dead.Has been for over a century.
What has replaced that slavery is economic.you have a perpetual underclass of illegals and to a certain extent blacks and whites.

Now bear in mind slavery in any form is morally wrong
Being oppressed by a government is in many respects is just like being a slave.If you're raised to think government is the source of your freedoms than you're right your country's flag is a symbol of slavery.
The confederates thought the north was an oppressive government.The constitution says that we the people have the right to remove any oppressive government in this country.we have the right to bear arms and form militias in order to keep a government from getting to that point.
One can argue that the people who ever puts symbolizim puts his/her mentality,emotions and beliefs into that symbol,therefore it means something to that person.the stars and bars can represent anything from being proud from where you're from to being oppressed even though you've never been through that part of history.

Answer these three questions:
1.What's more hurtful? someone who knows he/she's a slave and figures out a way to overcome it or someone who's blissfully unaware that he is in chains?
2.Which one are you?
3.Can you change the past

@Johnnypenso has a point. Slavery was an issue long before 1863, heck it was an issue when they were writing the Constitution in the first place. The issue came up when the portion of the document was addressing the census. Slave owners didn't want slaves to be counted, but a compromise was made to count them anyways as 3/5ths a person (in other words, you can find the general slave population in any given census prior to the 1860's by dividing that number by 3, and multiplying the result by 5).

 

[Formula1269]

I always have a laugh and roll my eyes when I year young brash American males going on about "southern pride."

 

[Garage13]

I'm born and raised in NJ,I served three years as a Tank Driver in the US ARMY.I lived in GA,NC for a while and there are people who are proud to come from where they come from.there's nothing wrong with that

 

[Johnnypenso]

@Johnnypenso has a point. Slavery was an issue long before 1863, heck it was an issue when they were writing the Constitution in the first place. The issue came up when the portion of the document was addressing the census. Slave owners didn't want slaves to be counted, but a compromise was made to count them anyways as 3/5ths a person (in other words, you can find the general slave population in any given census prior to the 1860's by dividing that number by 3, and multiplying the result by 5).

When the U.S. broke away from England, slavery was legal in all 13 states. The American flag from that time has evolved into the American Flag of today. You can buy that original American flag at any number of retailers online and in bricks and mortar locations across the earth. The English had not practiced domestic slavery for several hundred years so one could easily argue the War of Independence was a war in part for the free practice of slavery and the establishment of an independent nation that approved of slavery. I don't see how it differs from the Confederate battle flag recently in the news from the standpoint of reminding people of slavery.