Controller vs wheel

[cletus 669]

Issues?

I got them on my thumbs for running the 1000km of Suzuka in GT4. I dont use the sticks, I used the D-Pad and buttons in GT4. Remember the buttons on the DS2 are sensitive and on a worn out controller you have to really smash them to get full response. Over 4 hours straight of button smashing did me in. One of the main factors behind me getting a wheel.

OH, I remember those days!

 

[TokyoDrift]

First, his logic was logical, not twisted. If you could drive a race car, in the real world, faster with a 1/2 inch stick, then they would incorporate that into real race cars. (no twisting going on, just common sense)
Second, the people you speak of either haven't used a wheel, or they haven't put enough effort into getting good with a wheel.

The bottom line is everyone will be faster, more consistent, and have more fun using a wheel/pedal setup. This didn't come from my rear, it comes from knowing people who were real fast with a controller (faster than a lot of guys with wheels) and all the attributes I listed were enhanced through using a wheel/pedals.

Oh come off it, people say the must ridiculous things sometimes just because they know it's never going to happen. Cars had steering wheels long before consoles came out, so to say they would retro-fit thumbsticks based on the experience of a few gamers is pathetic.

Besides, the fact is, regardless of the time spent with one, not everybody is faster with a wheel. Even a gaming wheel is massively removed from the feel of driving a real car. One thing I will agree with is that using a wheel is generally more fun than a pad because it does APPROXIMATE driving a car.

 

[Turbo-Kai]

just a short question: is it possible to use the buttons on the wheel for braking and throttle? that would be a nice combination....LOL

I drive pad... cause I ain't got the right table etc. for installing a wheel...and a racing seat is infortunately no option cause I play GT in the living room and my girlfriend would kill me if I put a seat in there...LOL
But I definitely would like to play it with wheel...I only tried this once in a shop when GT4 was released...I just bounced from left to right on the nordschleife...LOL
I guess it would take quiet a while to be fast with wheel for mee..but I am sure the fun and feeling is much more better...

 

[masonite]

I've got a G25, and its definately more fun and involving than the controller (esp. with the force feedback turned up). However getting consistent is very hard without a lot of practice. Just like real life, you can't jump in and be a star right a way - takes a lot of getting used to, but eventually it becomes easier.

The advantage of a controller is the ability to go from full lock left to full lock right in the blink of an eye - making it easy to catch a slide. But in real life you'd be putting monumental stress on your steering rack if you tried to adapt the same setup.

 

[Stotty]

just a short question: is it possible to use the buttons on the wheel for braking and throttle? that would be a nice combination....LOL

I drive pad... cause I ain't got the right table etc. for installing a wheel...and a racing seat is infortunately no option cause I play GT in the living room and my girlfriend would kill me if I put a seat in there...LOL
But I definitely would like to play it with wheel...I only tried this once in a shop when GT4 was released...I just bounced from left to right on the nordschleife...LOL
I guess it would take quiet a while to be fast with wheel for mee..but I am sure the fun and feeling is much more better...

You should get a Wheel Stand Pro... packs away flat when not in use.

Takes a good month or 2 to get fully up to speed when you switch from pad to wheel... but you will definitely be significantly faster with a wheel that with the pad.

 

[Turbo-Kai]

thanks for that idea stotty!
so about € 100,- for the stand + € 170,- for G25 (or which wheel would you recommend?...ok, I will search the forum for a wheel thread...)
mmmh....I guess I wait until GT5 and then go for one...

 

[RazzlDazzle]

Only problem is that many retailers have stopped selling G25s due to the G27 release already, some are going to do that soon, as well as online stores eventually. You should still be able to get it used, though. I'm having a hard time deciding which of those two I want, and I think I'm starting to lean towards the G27 now, but I want the sequential shift.

 

[rexc]

IIRC, in the last GTP qualifying event (F430, S2's, Suzuka, pro physics) only 2 drivers in Division 1 gold didn't use a wheel (Bollox and Timeattack)... both of them have since switched to using wheels.

That pretty much sums it up right there. Yes, there are drivers who are seriously fast with a controller, mainly due to years of practice. I'd say that if they had put in the same number of years with a wheel they would almost certainly be even faster.

 

[chepe371]

Besides, the fact is, regardless of the time spent with one, not everybody is faster with a wheel. E

Def not at first, first time i used a wheel i was all over the place, but as soon as you realize there is a much broader level of control over steering throttle brake then you will get faster times because those jerky corrections that you make with the DS3 cost alot of time.

Using a decent wheel will greatly enhance the experience and make it much more fun and make you a smoother v-driver.

 

[squishydk]

Oh come off it, people say the must ridiculous things sometimes just because they know it's never going to happen. Cars had steering wheels long before consoles came out, so to say they would retro-fit thumbsticks based on the experience of a few gamers is pathetic.

Besides, the fact is, regardless of the time spent with one, not everybody is faster with a wheel. Even a gaming wheel is massively removed from the feel of driving a real car. One thing I will agree with is that using a wheel is generally more fun than a pad because it does APPROXIMATE driving a car.

With budgets ranging in the billions, im quite sure racing teams would implement the most tiny detail that would give the slightest advantage... The logic in itself is good.

But this _is_ a game, nothing more nothing less. Even though people tend to call it a SIM, its still just a game, programmed to react in a certain manner. So in theory it could be faster laptimes with a guitarhero drumset, if the game was set up proper for it....

What ever gives each person the fastest time, is the best method for that induvidual. This discussion is like talking about what taste better: Apples or strawberry

Personally i can set better times on most tracks with my G25, but i still change from time to time. G25 is more fun, and for me, in the long run better overall. In GH i can actually do some songs better with the controller, than the drums... but drums are sooo much more fun. Its really just a stupid discussion no offence


As long everyone has fun, everythings gooood

 

[TokyoDrift]

Personally i can set better times on most tracks with my G25, but i still change from time to time. G25 is more fun, and for me, in the long run better overall. In GH i can actually do some songs better with the controller, than the drums... but drums are sooo much more fun. Its really just a stupid discussion no offence

None taken, and it's not a stupid discussion when you nail it like that. It is absolutely down the whatever each individual prefers and is better with. I completely agree, using a wheel is much more fun, no question about it, but I found that overall I was much more consistent with the pad.

What IS stupid, is people coming on here saying that everybody can be faster using a wheel setup. Let's just say that's true - the amount of time that some people would have to put in to even equal their pad times would be so frustrating that they would give up anyway. So, we face theory versus reality - two very different things.

 

[Sam48]

There's a simple solution to both wheel or controller.. SIX AXIS!!! So you'd basically play GT5 Wii style. Good for people who can't afford wheels and gives everyone a more sim like experience.

 

[TokyoDrift]

There's a simple solution to both wheel or controller.. SIX AXIS!!! So you'd basically play GT5 Wii style. Good for people who can't afford wheels and gives everyone a more sim like experience.

After spending some quality time with F1 2009 on Wii yesterday, I can categorically say that it's about as far from a sim-like experience as you can get. It works great for games like Mario Kart, but when you need precision, like in a 200mph+ F1 car, it just doesn't work too well due to the lack of feedback and steering resistance. KY will never implement such a pointless "feature" in a racing game.

 

[Sam48]

After spending some quality time with F1 2009 on Wii yesterday, I can categorically say that it's about as far from a sim-like experience as you can get. It works great for games like Mario Kart, but when you need precision, like in a 200mph+ F1 car, it just doesn't work too well due to the lack of feedback and steering resistance. KY will never implement such a pointless "feature" in a racing game.

But six axis is much more responsive and more precise than a Wii remote. But even if it's not better than a Wii remote, six axis is still better than 2 controller knobs anyway.

 

[Adam41]

But six axis is much more responsive and more precise than a Wii remote. But even if it's not better than a Wii remote, six axis is still better than 2 controller knobs anyway.

I haven't even tried using the six axis and didn't even know you could use them, but I'd have to disagree. I would see myself always turning with a six axis because there's simply no centralisation of the steering, unlike an analogue stick. Wouldn't your arms ache after a while using the sixaxis too?

 

[Sam48]

I haven't even tried using the six axis and didn't even know you could use them, but I'd have to disagree. I would see myself always turning with a six axis because there's simply no centralisation of the steering, unlike an analogue stick. Wouldn't your arms ache after a while using the sixaxis too?

Since i'm badly losing this debate i'll shut up, but honestly, would you rather use a knob or the six axis. It's there for a reason.

 

[chepe371]

I haven't even tried using the six axis and didn't even know you could use them, but I'd have to disagree. I would see myself always turning with a six axis because there's simply no centralisation of the steering, unlike an analogue stick. Wouldn't your arms ache after a while using the sixaxis too?

Hitting the brakea and gas levers will cause the controller to tilt a bit each time, possibly inducing pendulum.

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

Correlation does not imply causation, simply saying that because the fastest times on a Time Trial are from people using a wheel means that all drivers with a wheel will be faster than with a controller isn't true.

It could be down to the fact that the people at the top of the Time Trial are there because they put alot more time into GT, and in turn they decided that investment in a decent wheel was a good idea.

Put it another way, you aren't going to buy a wheel, build a cockpit unless you are into GT in a big way (or any racing games) , therefore you will be dedicating more time to practicing than your average contoller user, this will make you faster, not the wheel.

I know this from experience, it takes an awfull lot of practice to get anywhere near the top of a popular Time Trial, and I know for a fact that some of the fastest drivers out there aren't using a wheel, granted, most are, but that brings us back to the start, correlation does not imply causation.

 

[BolgOfThe North]

When I got a wheel I was about 0.5 to 1.5 seconds faster on every track using the Evo 9.

 

[No46_TheDoctor]

The only thing that really makes a difference to my lap times if the view I use.

Bumper cam give me .2 -.3 seconds a lap after about 2-3 laps to get used to it, strange.

I remember the GT Academy time trials, there was at least a couple of guy's in the top 20 at the end who were using pads, so it is basically what you are used to, more comfortable with.

 

[General Force]

Back during GT4 days, I owned a Logitech driving force pro for about a week. What really pissed me off most was a complete lack of "return-to-center" of any kind, you could crank the wheel all the way and just leave it there, twitching away from the force feedback.

Have any of the new wheels fixed this????

That was the single reason I returned it and haven't tried any since. Without "auto-center," you COMPLETELY lose all feeling of realism, even my old PC wheel from ten years ago had "auto-center". Hence, it's the DualShock for me.
-G

 

[Northstar]

It sounds like you had the feedback set way to low.

 

[General Force]

Even with FF set on full, it wouldn't even try to center. Believe me, for $150, I checked; it was as if Logitech just hadn't even designed in that feature.
-G

 

[2of9]

Interesting read. I find that the controller actually lags compared to the steering wheel because using the controller, you can't get a smooth driving line, you can't input certain gas pedal pressure at certain turns, and counter steering correctly. I may have to try the six axis...something I never thought of...(>_<) -"!!!!!!!"

 

[General Force]

*bump*
I'm not trying to spam, I really want to know,

Do any of the new driving wheels have an 'auto-center' feature? That is, when you let go, does the wheel rotate back to the middle, or does it stay where it is?

-General

 

[Sureboss]

Well my DFGT does that as does the G25s I've used.

 

[snowgt]

*bump*
I'm not trying to spam, I really want to know,

Do any of the new driving wheels have an 'auto-center' feature? That is, when you let go, does the wheel rotate back to the middle, or does it stay where it is?

-General

If the wheel doesn't turn back to center, it's never the wheel's fault, but that of the software or the settings.

What you are describing is basically a 'no force feedback' mode. The very essence of force feedback is, that the wheel (mainly) pulls in the opposite direction you are going (if you're not going straight ), thus appearing to auto-center. In reality, it just moves towards the center, but not completely. When the turn becomes wide enough, it won't center any further, just like in a real car.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Back during GT4 days, I owned a Logitech driving force pro for about a week. What really pissed me off most was a complete lack of "return-to-center" of any kind, you could crank the wheel all the way and just leave it there, twitching away from the force feedback.

Same here, I had a DFP when I had GT4, and for the most part it was more frustrating with the wheel for various reasons, one of which you mention there. Fault of the software or not, I soon went back to the pad and started improving my times again. Don't get me wrong, using a wheel was more fun, but no wheel I've ever used in a game to-date feels anything like I'm behind the wheel of my car.

 

[ItsHim]

Some time ago I chose to get myself a MS wheel, only to find that I didn't like the hardware at all (what were they thinking of when they designed the pedals?) and all my car setups would have to be redone. The 360 controller wasn't too bad when it came to modulating throttle and I always made heavy use of left foot braking. I never used ABS, because to me it was basically cheating as it let you off with far too stiff suspension and overdone camber settings resulting often in terrible braking behaviour (which was cured by the ABS).

So the controller was quite ok in Forza 2, even I never got the turn in response I wanted especially on the first two right handers on Laguna Seca or the two Esses on Mugello.

In GT4, the G25 was really a revelation - the absence of Caster settings has somehow kept me from setting up cars too gamey, and finally being able to apply throttle and brake in a very precise way made all the difference. I was always rubbish with the buttons and just giving the brake a quick tap while full open throttle was impossible for me.

I can't really see me getting back to a controller in GT, with other games (like Shift) it's a different matter.

 

[General Force]

no wheel I've ever used in a game to-date feels anything like I'm behind the wheel of my car.

+1, The amount of information (read: vibration/resistance) that comes through the steering wheel into your hands at any time is essential to total immersion in the driving experience.

If the wheel doesn't turn back to center, it's never the wheel's fault, but that of the software or the settings.
...it just moves towards the center, but not completely. When the turn becomes wide enough, it won't center any further, just like in a real car.

My car in real life has power steering, so maybe that's it, because it likes to be in the middle.
And arcade games like Cruzin' USA always had impeccable FF, so I really want the home experience to rival that or better.

The game already calculates lateral (and hopefully longitudinal) G-forces on the vehicle, which directly translates to forces at each corner that you must slug back and forth with the wheel... Why can't it simultaneously incline itself toward the middle as the weight of the car shifts back?
At least, that's how I would do it.

-General