Convince me I should change to Traction Control 0

  • Thread starter Bullwinkle
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Bullwinkle

Bullwinkle

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United States
Grand_Slammin
This isn't meant to be as confrontational as the title sounds, but I'm trying to learn how to turn all the assists off and it's been less-than-productive so far (I keep ABS on because I lose way too much time braking without it). People insist that it will be faster because this is where you can scrub off tenths of a second from your time, but my lap times are going waaaay up. I know I'll learn and improve, but it's hard to feel like it is worth it when the FFB keeps changing and the physics seems to be a little off. But I'd like you to explain to my why I should make the change. What are the benefits? What are some points I need to pay attention to in order to improve?

After driving many hours on the Sardegna road circuit, here are some of my observations so far, in no particular order:
  • Is it my imagination, or is braking distance reduced with TC0?
  • Likewise, and this may not be my imagination, is it much easier to trail brake with TC0?
  • It seems like less speed is scrubbed off on high speed turns with TC0 because there are no adjustments to power.
  • My weakest link so far is coming out of tight turns. The ones on Sardegna that are less than 90 degrees are killing me. I feel like I have to really baby the throttle coming out of them, and that is where I'm losing the most time (to the tune of several seconds a lap). Will I ever regain those lost seconds?
  • I tend to go with higher differential settings for stability. Will lower LSD settings counteract the tendency to spin out?
  • Just a thought: does the gearing help with not spinning out? If I make 1st a little longer will it ease up on how fast the power is applied? Or keep it low and drop 2nd gear lower and short shift instead?
  • Does Turbo vs. Naturally Aspirated matter? In other words, does the turbo lag kicking in late make it harder to control the throttle coming out of a tight corner? Am I more likely to spin out with a turbo?
  • I run the Fanatec DD Pro wheel (and I think it has the CSL pedals). Will the quality of pedals make it easier to feather the throttle? I can't remember what it's called right now, but the higher quality pedals have more realistic resistance to give better feedback. Does this make a significant difference in throttle control? Or is that just for the experts?
Please feel free to correct or add to my observations. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Edit: New questions as I think of them. Also, please give me some kind of useful information in your comments, or at least explain your reasoning.
 
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It will make you a better driver.

EDIT: Study the throttle use of pro drivers on youtube and tutorial video's how to apply the throttle after tight corners. Your laptimes will be the same or better once you can pull it off.
 
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Bullwinkle
  • Is it my imagination, or is braking distance reduced with TC0?
  • Likewise, and this may not be my imagination, is it much easier to trail brake with TC0?
  • It seems like less speed is scrubbed off on high speed turns with TC0 because there are no adjustments to power.
  • My weakest link so far is coming out of tight turns. The ones on Sardegna that are less than 90 degrees are killing me. I feel like I have to really baby the throttle coming out of them, and that is where I'm losing the most time (to the tune of several seconds a lap). Will I ever regain those lost seconds?
  • I tend to go with higher differential settings for stability. Will lower LSD settings counteract the tendency to spin out?
Click to expand...
Not sure
Yes, you have more control of the slow down
Yes, because any reduction in grip is not being automatically compensated for
Yes, but that is the trick to learning TC and your car
no idea, I suck at tuning :P
 
GleepGlop
I think with pedals its easier to run with 0 traction control compared to on a controller. I don't strive for complete realism when I'm not even using a wheel and pedals.
Click to expand...
This was my thinking, as well; even though I don't own a wheel and pedals. With the controller, I just can't keep the rear tires from spinning and rear end from coming around and me facing the opposite direction. And if I do try to baby the throttle, I lose too much time, like the OP. And it seems I just keep losing more and more time do to having to do the same thing at the same or similar corners. So I keep it at 1, unless I'm in an AWD car or on a rally stage (dirt). Most FWD cars I can turn it to 0, but there are some that will still spin the tires if I'm not extra careful.
 
I was TC1 through GT Sport. All the way. I thought it'd make me quicker because I didn't have to worry so much about throttle control so much, as being on controller it's harder to be precise.

After the 1.13 update to GT7 I've been TC off for any GR4 and higher cars, as that update improved the physics and downforce to the point where even with moderate throttle control, you should be able to control the cars. And that's the key that anyone wanting to go from TC to no TC has to work on - throttle and brake control.

Don't do lap after lap after lap with the same inputs. Experiment. If you take the same corner twice coasting but go wide, will you go wide if you brake a fraction longer and go through the corner with a little pressure on the throttle?
 
Veinz
Traction control in GT games is very rudimentary which results in slower lap times 99% of the time.
Click to expand...
Can you explain why? This is the view of most experts, but I'm trying to figure out the "why" of it.
 
GleepGlop
I think with pedals its easier to run with 0 traction control compared to on a controller. I don't strive for complete realism when I'm not even using a wheel and pedals.
Click to expand...
This is one of the points I forgot to include: does the quality of pedal matter here? I have the Fanatec DD Pro wheel and I think it's the CSL pedals. Would having better pedals with more resistance (I can't remember what it's called right now) make feathering the throttle easier?
 
Bullwinkle
This isn't meant to be as confrontational as the title sounds, but I'm trying to learn how to turn all the assists off and it's been less-than-productive so far (I keep ABS on because I lose way too much time braking without it). People insist that it will be faster because this is where you can scrub off tenths of a second from your time, but my lap times are going waaaay up. I know I'll learn and improve, but it's hard to feel like it is worth it when the FFB keeps changing and the physics seems to be a little off. But I'd like you to explain to my why I should make the change. What are the benefits? What are some points I need to pay attention to in order to improve?

After driving many hours on the Sardegna road circuit, here are some of my observations so far, in no particular order:
  • Is it my imagination, or is braking distance reduced with TC0?
  • Likewise, and this may not be my imagination, is it much easier to trail brake with TC0?
  • It seems like less speed is scrubbed off on high speed turns with TC0 because there are no adjustments to power.
  • My weakest link so far is coming out of tight turns. The ones on Sardegna that are less than 90 degrees are killing me. I feel like I have to really baby the throttle coming out of them, and that is where I'm losing the most time (to the tune of several seconds a lap). Will I ever regain those lost seconds?
  • I tend to go with higher differential settings for stability. Will lower LSD settings counteract the tendency to spin out?
  • Just a thought: does the gearing help with not spinning out? If I make 1st a little longer will it ease up on how fast the power is applied? Or keep it low and drop 2nd gear lower and short shift instead?
Please feel free to correct or add to my observations. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!

Edit: New questions as I think of them. Also, please give me some kind of useful information in your comments, or at least explain your reasoning.
Click to expand...
I can't advise you regarding braking, because I've heard some say ABS default is faster, and others say ABS 0 is faster.

Regarding TC, I can say that every time I use TC 1 or higher it makes me slower, by tenths of seconds. I utilize various methods to manage wheelspin such as:

-The most common, throttle modulation. This obviously must be put into practice and varies per car but it's not too difficult to accomplish. I suggest using only a portion of your foot when doing this, such as the ball(s) of your foot, or even just a toe (varies per car as I stated before) when exiting certain corners.

-Another method you can use is tuning the gearing. You can create a setup for cars of varying power, drivetrains, ETC. which aims for corner exit efficiency. Longer ratios in 1st gear, have helped me too.

-Finally, there are times where I will just use 2nd gear when exiting corners, if feasible.

All of this is dependent on the course, car, conditions, as well as your knowledge of each.

How much experience do you have with the game by the way?
 
TheGhostOf94
-The most common, throttle modulation. This obviously must be put into practice and varies per car but it's not too difficult to accomplish. I suggest using only a portion of your foot when doing this, such as the ball(s) of your foot, or even just a toe (varies per car as I stated before) when exiting certain corners.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by throttle modulation? Feathering? Or actually up-down-up modulation?
TheGhostOf94
How much experience do you have with the game by the way?
Click to expand...
This is my first racing game. I started with a controller three months ago, quickly switched to a wheel, then manual transmission, and now I'm trying to take off the last training wheel. But I'm losing full seconds rather than gaining the tenths that make TC0 worth it.
Veinz
It cuts off too much of your power when you start to lose traction.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. I only vaguely understood that it cut power to the wheels. I thought it only moved the power around to the wheels rather than cut it. That makes more sense to me now.
 
Bullwinkle
What do you mean by throttle modulation? Feathering? Or actually up-down-up modulation?

This is my first racing game. I started with a controller three months ago, quickly switched to a wheel, then manual transmission, and now I'm trying to take off the last training wheel. But I'm losing full seconds rather than gaining the tenths that make TC0 worth it.

Thanks for this. I only vaguely understood that it cut power to the wheels. I thought it only moved the power around to the wheels rather than cut it. That makes more sense to me now.
Click to expand...
Yes, I mean feathering when necessary and/or gentle up and down motions when applying the throttle.

That explains a lot Sir. No offense, but it will take some time to get used to this game, especially considering it's your first racing game.

This one is like many say, "simcade" but that doesn't mean it isn't realistic or difficult as you know. I would recommend that you continue reaching out, as you have been, to the community because there are tons of skilled individuals here. Check out the physics thread
--- https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/board/gt7-car-tuning.458/ --- There is a lot of useful information that will help you understand the physics of the game, but...

Of course the best way to learn is simply to do, and you don't have to use the most powerful or high end cars for that. Start off with 3-500pp cars of various drivetrains, and just enjoy driving.
 
Bullwinkle
Can you explain why? This is the view of most experts, but I'm trying to figure out the "why" of it.
Click to expand...

I know this has already been accurately replied to, but I wanted to top up - Group 3 cars actually have traction control in real life. The traction control used is very granular - it allows for precise setup so it only activates in certain situations, decided by the race teams, often giving an advantage as it allows the cars to retain grip and accelerate hard when other non-TC cars would lose traction.

GTs version of TC though is pretty much a blanket approach, with all cars having the same "road car" based system that cannot be tweaked beyond the strength setting. If we had race car levels of control over TC setup, it'd be beneficial if setup properly for the race conditions.
 
After one of the updates, they bumped up the traction control. It sucked out the fun of driving when using TC1. You just step on the throttle and the game kills off however much throttle it wants. It just seems like it's constantly overly-active. So at the current state, for most cars TC0 is better in terms of enjoyment and also allows me to get better lap times because the TC is not as intrusive.
 
Because where is the fun in just nailing the throttle every time? The game has depth to it - for all the criticism it receives, there is a solid physics system and enjoyable experience beneath it all, there is a sense of accomplishment and achievement from getting better at the game and having that improvement translate to lap times.

I restarted on a new account where I switched from AT, X and Square and Assists to MT, Triggers and No Assists (barring default ABS) despite having golded 90% of the content in the game and owning many of the cars I yearn for presently but it was worth it in the quest for improvement. The first 3 or 4 days felt like I was disabled but I wouldn't have it any other way now. I'm enjoying a more wholesome experience - I mean it's hardly rocket science but the game is engaging, and I'm a better driver for it.

Its down to what you want - you shouldnt need convincing. Do you want the best experience possible? Or a watered down playthrough? Easy wins? A quick fumble in the dark? Or a night of passion? Ooo-errr 😆

For an even better experience try limiting your tuning along the way; for example an 800PP event doesn't necessarily mean you need to unquestionably tune to 799.99 every single time - do you need to win by 40 seconds? Id rather lose in a car matching the field and replay the event, than win everything first attempt and by 40 seconds in a superior car and then blame the AI or bemoan the lack of content (which there is, granted, but worse if you're rushing through the game with an OP car on Assisted/basic settings all the way through).

To each their own. You shouldn't need convincing.
 
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All TC does in GT7 is cut the throttle when it senses loss of grip under acceleration. You can actually see what it’s doing: the throttle indicator will turn partly red, and any part that’s red is throttle that you’re trying to apply but is being cut by the TC. It never cuts exactly the right amount, though, so if you can do it manually, you’ll be faster without it. Same applies for ABS intervention on the brake indicator although most people seem to think the ABS actually does do a perfect job of cutting just before wheel lockup.

But some cars are decidedly more difficult to control without TC. The Gr.3 M6 used in the Nordschleife circuit experience is a good example; it’s certainly possible to drive it with no TC, and I did for many of my gold attempts (it actually helped me a lot in learning throttle modulation), but even when modulating, sometimes the tiniest amount too much throttle would send the car spinning, and I ended up keeping TC on 1 to complete the lap. Of course it’s a matter of learning how much throttle you can apply before traction breaks, but in this particular car the margin of error is razor thin.

Then I raced all week in Suzuka with the Gr3 BRZ with TC off, and in comparison it felt like I could positively stomp the gas exiting the corners and be stable still. So I guess what I’m trying to say is it’s worth experimenting with different cars and different levels of TC.
 
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I use TC0 for lower power cars like the Gr.4 Alfa Romeo 155 but for higher power cars like anything with more than 550 HP I usually use TC2 though i'll admit it makes me abit slower around corners/bends.
 
The question of whether TC yes or no has been asked so often and there will always be different camps.
Basically, I know now that I had to drive with a gamepad for a few weeks that there are significant differences between the pad and the steering wheel.

So you have to see both separately.
TCS 1 on steering wheel is NOT the same as TCS 1 on gamepad.
Conversely, it is probably clearer. TCS1 on the gamepad is more comparable to TCS2-3 on the steering wheel. Therefore, gamepad drivers with TCS are slowed down very much, whereas steering wheel users usually get along very well with TCS on 1.

Even on TCS 1, a gamepad driver has a delayed accelerator pedal modulation, or rather the rate of increase is slowed down. You can test this very well by quickly accelerating and letting go on the gamepad and looking at the display for the accelerator pedal in the game. If you now repeat the same with the pedals, you can see immediately that the inputs are implemented immediately and without delay.

Basically... TCS 0 is FASTER... BUT only under ideal conditions AND if the driver controls the input at all times. If the driver is still too imprecise, then using TCS is ALWAYS an advantage, especially in a race.

For gamepad users who have problems without TCS, I can recommend the counter-steering assistant, it doesn't cost any time in principle (except in very few exceptional cases where the car should drift to be really fast), but often stabilizes the car enough.

As a steering wheel user, it can also help to use this assistant for the transition from TCS1 to TCS0. And this assistant also helps, especially in the currently "tough" sport mode races.

There is a 95% definitive answer to ABS... USE ABS because it does more good than harm. Only in extremely few situations is no ABS or a weak ABS an advantage and very few drivers are good/precise enough to be really good/fast enough WITHOUT ABS.
 
Hi. I'll take any help I can, no Big ego, so don't need to be a TCS 0 guy. its a debate with no winner, let's be satisfied with that. each to their own choice.easier the better lol :cheers:
 
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Does it improve your lap times? If yes then use it. If not then don't, it's just a video game. In real life I'll take a manual transmission over automatic any day. In GT- nope, I use auto and I'm not at all embarrassed about it. Real cars on a real road behave a bit differently from this driving simulation. GT is pretty awesome but it's still, you know, just a video game.

"You must do what you feel is right, of course" - Obi Wan Kenobi (a fictional character).
 
Zero2Oblivion
I know this has already been accurately replied to, but I wanted to top up - Group 3 cars actually have traction control in real life. The traction control used is very granular - it allows for precise setup so it only activates in certain situations, decided by the race teams, often giving an advantage as it allows the cars to retain grip and accelerate hard when other non-TC cars would lose traction.

GTs version of TC though is pretty much a blanket approach, with all cars having the same "road car" based system that cannot be tweaked beyond the strength setting. If we had race car levels of control over TC setup, it'd be beneficial if setup properly for the race conditions.
Click to expand...
Road cars can have good TCS too, although ATTESA ETS would define as torque vectoring in the in it is traction control (along HICAS, which is neither of both systems, but still improving agility).
Correct me, if this is wrong.
 
Veinz
It cuts off too much of your power when you start to lose traction.
Click to expand...
Also, it activates on fast corners, like the Nurburgring kink, with minimal wheel spin, where it isn't really needed.

For my experience, and you talk about adjusting diffs and so, if the TCS is interfering with power deployment, you can be really sure you are setting up in the right direction. One mistake easily made is to put the front extremely low and the rear much higher to make the car pointier, but the rear will be loosing traction constantly, with TCS you will only loose much speed, and not understand why.
If you set the car without TCS you will be making a finer tune than with TCS.
On other hand, maybe TCS=0 is faster most of the times, on long runs, many times, TCS=1 allows you more consistent pace, specially in races with tire wear (like no TCS on quali on Sport Mode, but isung it in the race itself)

Definitely you should try to drive without TCS and adjust your driving. If, at the end of the day, you feel more comfortable with TCS on, you should put it on, no matter what others say.
 
i struggle with the same problems usually 300 hp under 2000pound cars or 500hp + any weight i have to flip the traction to 1.. however i am faster without it when im able to brake early glide through corner and slowly apply throttle as im straightning out hower i still lose a bit of time to ais on tight corners as well still
 
I run TCS=0 on controller and have done for years now. TCS any higher than that I've always found will slow you down by damping the acceleration, subtly applying the brakes, etc, when you're not necessarily wanting it to. Sure, it's the safe option and helps control oversteer, but it's not going to give you complete throttle control. You will get better throttle response and understand throttle and braking control much better by turning TCS off.
 
Sunzi
To each their own. You shouldn't need convincing.
Click to expand...
As I said at the opening, it’s not that I need convincing so much as I need explanations. I just wanted to use a sexy title to get people’s attention . . . 😉
effenG
"You must do what you feel is right, of course" - Obi Wan Kenobi (a fictional character).
Click to expand...
“Adventure? Excitement? A Jedi craves not these thing.” ~ Yoda

“But I do!” ~ me 😳
 

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