COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

[Dotini]

It's a great idea but don't know how successful it would be. For example, a group of different vegetable growers have earlier this week chartered a number of commercial airliners to fly in eastern Europeans to pick their crops. They had to do this because the British people who applied did not have the necessary skills to pick vegetables. I reckon the skills needed to be a nurse or health care worker are probably going to be a step up from picking veg. Pesky foreigners coming over here and knowing how to pick veg properly!

My presumption is that pandemic will be with us for the foreseeable future, and persons put out of work may want to make a strategic career move though retraining/reeducation for work in the health care field.

 

[jjaisli]

"According to data from the best-studied countries such as South Korea, Iceland, Germany and Denmark, the overall lethality of Covid19 is between 0.1% and 0.4% and thus up to twenty times lower than initially assumed by the WHO." [source]
.

Just for the record, https://swprs.org is many ways the Swiss equivalent of infowars. It's not a credited news site and amounts to nothing more than propaganda.

 

[Submerged]

It's a great idea but don't know how successful it would be. For example, a group of different vegetable growers have earlier this week chartered a number of commercial airliners to fly in eastern Europeans to pick their crops. They had to do this because the British people who applied did not have the necessary skills to pick vegetables. I reckon the skills needed to be a nurse or health care worker are probably going to be a step up from picking veg. Pesky foreigners coming over here and knowing how to pick veg properly!

Its interesting that you mentioned this lack of skills that apparently couldn't be trained to just anyone to pick vegetables. My suspicions is that people have a set price and time that they would work towards to do the job. I would be very interested to find out exactly the wage difference between the British worker and the Eastern European worker.

But then, this opens up a whole another subject of cost of labour and expectations of people from different countries have.

@jjaisli brings a very valid point that it is important to keep your eyes open for different biases. I was wondering about those articles as it just seemed too specific for one particular view on the Covid-19 subject

 

[VolkswagenX]

Just for the record, https://swprs.org is many ways the Swiss equivalent of infowars. It's not a credited news site and amounts to nothing more than propaganda.

Are you saying the linked articles about South Korea, Iceland, Germany and Denmark are wrong? If so, why? Is Business Insider like Infowars? What about COVID.is/data?

 

[jjaisli]

Are you saying the linked articles about South Korea, Iceland, Germany and Denmark are wrong? If so, why? Is Business Insider like Infowars? What about COVID.is/data?

I'm saying that they are extremely selective. And nothing but a propaganda site with a clear agenda. They are NOT to be taken seriously. If there are 49 reports that all agree on X they'll link ONLY the one report that shows Y. Read though some of their other articles and it should be obvious

 

[VolkswagenX]

I'm saying that they are extremely selective. And nothing but a propaganda site with a clear agenda. They are NOT to be taken seriously. If there are 49 reports that all agree on X they'll link ONLY the one report that shows Y. Read though some of their other articles and it should be obvious

Dismissing something because you deem a source a "propaganda site" is a silly way to start a discussion on any subject. I will ask again in a different way. Is Business Insider a propaganda site? Is COVID.is a propaganda site? Do you have an opinion on/ or are you interested in the information shared by Business Insider? Or would your rathar attack.

Here is the link to the article without the connection to a Swedish version of Disinfowars.com.
[South Korea has tested 140,000 people for the coronavirus. That could explain why its death rate is just 0.6% — far lower than in China or the US.]

 

[sirjim73]

No doubt.

Do we have any idea how much of flu hospitalization and death is "preventable" by vaccine?

I'm no expert but virtually all those who are considered vulnerable are already vaccinated every year, so those numbers are already at the bottom end of what can be achieved.

The only thing they could do is make the vaccine compulsory for those of us for whom it is currently optional, which would reduce the spread amongst the general population and MIGHT reduce the number of critical cases. But that's unlikely to have any significant effect on severe cases. It would probably just reduce the number of sickness absences from work.

One question - is the flu vaccine compulsory for key workers (health, social care, delivery drivers etc). If not, it certainly should be.

 

[Blitz24]

One question - is the flu vaccine compulsory for key workers (health, social care, delivery drivers etc). If not, it certainly should be.

I believe it is required to work in a hospital, or at least most hospitals.

 

[Joey D]

One question - is the flu vaccine compulsory for key workers (health, social care, delivery drivers etc). If not, it certainly should be.

Yes, if you work in healthcare in any capacity almost every health system requires you to get a flu vaccine. It's free, employee health typically comes around to administer it, and if for some reason you require an exception you must wear full PPE from October 1st through May 1st while at work. Where I work, if you don't get the vaccine or lie about getting it and you didn't, it's immediate termination. On average we have about a 99.8% compliance rate and a .2% termination rate.

The same goes for any vaccine available too. Every time I've started a new job at a new healthcare system, I've had to agree to an antibody blood test to prove I have immunity to certain diseases. You can choose to forgo the test, but the organization typically forgoes hiring you too.

 

[UKMikey]

My mum's friends run a business that helps Filipino nurses get jobs in Britain. One of their clients was a 45-year-old nurse who worked in one of our nursing homes. She recently died from Covid-19 and leaves behind a 5-year-old daughter who has now been taken into foster care.

 

[Touring Mars]

No doubt.

Do we have any idea how much of flu hospitalization and death is "preventable" by vaccine?

I don't know, but here in the UK there is a well-publicized campaign each winter to urge people, particularly vulnerable groups, to get a flu shot... which suggests that voluntary uptake could be higher than it is.

And for anyone bored of Netflix and interested in a different perspective on the pandemic. The part about our general health is very interesting to me and is imo missing the conversation about COVID-19.

That is a worthwhile watch... he does a good job of explaining why/how we can be under-reacting and over-reacting at the same time... the gist of it is really what @Danoff has been saying, and some other general points mentioned in here are included there too... like the fact that countries like New Zealand who have apparently done a great job at 'crushing' the virus might be in for a nasty shock when they realise that they cannot sustain the measures required to keep a lid on the virus.

It seems that the most sensible way forward is to keep restrictions to an absolute minimum, but that minimum must change in response to the state of a nation's ability to provide healthcare... in other words, as soon as the healthcare system is approaching its limit, its time to reimpose restrictions - but by keeping periods of restrictions to a minimum and by 'stratifying the population' (i.e. by imposing different levels of restriction on different groups*), it may be possible to manage the epidemic and allow herd immunity to build gradually while keeping the highest number of people out of hospital.

* This may be very controversial though. It would be difficult enough to police/enforce, but it might also (likely) result in accusations of discrimination, repression etc. An article in the Guardian today suggests that ethnic minorities are more prone to developing COVID-19 in the UK than white Caucasians... but how would 'stratification' work without accusations of racism?

My mum's friends run a business that helps Filipino nurses get jobs in Britain. One of their clients was a 45-year-old nurse who worked in one of our nursing homes. She recently died from Covid-19 and leaves behind a 5-year-old daughter who has now been taken into foster care.

Jesus, that is awful...

 

[PzR Slim]

My mum's friends run a business that helps Filipino nurses get jobs in Britain. One of their clients was a 45-year-old nurse who worked in one of our nursing homes. She recently died from Covid-19 and leaves behind a 5-year-old daughter who has now been taken into foster care.

Behind the headlines are always the awful, human stories. So, so sad.

 

[Dotini]

. but how would 'stratification' work without accusations of racism?

Elsewhere I have suggested that isolation, cultural/social distancing and extralegal lockdown is going to be with us for a long time.

 

[Blitz24]

Elsewhere I have suggested that isolation, cultural/social distancing and extralegal lockdown is going to be with us for a long time.

Until there is a vaccine, we adapt some type of immunity, or we rationalize the cost is not worth the payout.

 

[jjaisli]

Dismissing something because you deem a source a "propaganda site" is a silly way to start a discussion on any subject. I will ask again in a different way. Is Business Insider a propaganda site? Is COVID.is a propaganda site? Do you have an opinion on/ or are you interested in the information shared by Business Insider? Or would your rathar attack.

Here is the link to the article without the connection to a Swedish version of Disinfowars.com.
[South Korea has tested 140,000 people for the coronavirus. That could explain why its death rate is just 0.6% — far lower than in China or the US.]

Report #4405
"According to data from the best-studied countries such as South Korea, Iceland, Germany and Denmark, the overall lethality of Covid19 is between 0.1% and 0.4% and thus up to twenty times lower than initially assumed by the WHO." [source]

Let's take the article about Germany.

Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, an der Krankheit zu sterben liege dort, bezogen auf die Gesamtzahl der Infizierten, bei 0,37 Prozent. Bezogen auf die Gesamtbevölkerung würden 0,06 Prozent der Menschen an Covid-19 sterben. [Translated] The probability of dying from the disease, based on the total number of people infected, was 0.37 percent. Based on the total population, 0.06 percent of the people would die from Covid-19.

However, the entire study was based upon the results not from Germany as a whole, or from a specific region but only from the city of Heinsberg. A city that had a fatality rate 5 times less than the rest of Germany as a whole. Taken out of context, the 0.06 percent figure is highly misleading. The article goes on to say, among other things, that because people were so disciplined in self isolation that the results were lower.

Germany, South Korea, Denmark and Iceland are four countries with relatively low fatality, relative to other countries, based on the reported rates of infection. Germany in particular has been the source of much speculation in this forum. They are not necessarily the best 'studied' countries. They are the countries with low rates relative to the numbers tested. But what the article from swprs.org does, is list 20 bullet points comprised of statements cherry picked, out of context from those articles. They make no effort to attempt to study or analyze those findings or put them into any context. But they are grouped together in a way to prove a point.

If you read the individual article, it's all very clear.

 

[Ether]

Until there is a vaccine, we adapt some type of immunity, or we rationalize the cost is not worth the payout.

This sentence got me thinking (more than I usually care to)....

I'm definitely not the first person to conjure this up, but in my opinion, the most effective and fastest way to get everything back to normal is to open the economy back up to the healthy and self reliant folks who stand little chance of being effected or hospitalized by the virus while the more vulnerable stay at home. This opening would be totally voluntary, meaning if you think you're at risk of getting hospitalized, stay home. This should in theory build up herd immunity at a faster rate, thereby allowing the more vulnerable to re-enter society faster as well. In essence, I'm trying to turn "the curve" into a speed bump that still stays below the hospitalization capacity threshold.

In the future, I imagine we'll be much better prepared for this sort of thing. In the same way we tell the elderly to stay at home in AC during a heat wave, I imagine future outbreaks will immediately call for similar action without the need to halt everything.

 

[Daz555]

This sentence got me thinking (more than I usually care to)....

I'm definitely not the first person to conjure this up, but in my opinion, the most effective and fastest way to get everything back to normal is to open the economy back up to the healthy and self reliant folks who stand little chance of being effected or hospitalized by the virus while the more vulnerable stay at home. This opening would be totally voluntary, meaning if you think you're at risk of getting hospitalized, stay home. This should in theory build up herd immunity at a faster rate, thereby allowing the more vulnerable to re-enter society faster as well. In essence, I'm trying to turn "the curve" into a speed bump that still stays below the hospitalization capacity threshold.

In the future, I imagine we'll be much better prepared for this sort of thing. In the same way we tell the elderly to stay at home in AC during a heat wave, I imagine future outbreaks will immediately call for similar action without the need to halt everything.

There are suggestions that covid-19 has a fairly low immune memory effect and if true then herd immunity may never be achieved through infection.

The idea of allowing the public to determine if they are at risk of being hospitalised sounds like a message that might turn out to be impossible to get across successfully. You may just end up with the "brave/stupid" heading out and the "fearful/paranoid" staying home.

This is going to be a very treacherous road for national governments to navigate and I don't envy the decision makers at this time.

However, my advice to all government is to see what UK and USA do and then do literally anything else.

 

[Blitz24]

There are suggestions that covid-19 has a fairly low immune memory effect and if true then herd immunity may never be achieved through infection.

As for allowing the public to determine if they are at risk of being hospitalised sounds like a message that will be might turn out to be impossible to get across successfully. You may just end up with the "brave/stupid" heading out and the "fearful/paranoid" staying home.

This is going to be a very treacherous road for national governments to navigate and I don't envy the decision makers at this time.

However, my advice to all government is to see what UK and USA do and then do literally anything else.

Don't do what China initially did though.

 

[Ether]

However, my advice to all government is to see what UK and USA do and then do literally anything else.

I can agree or at least understand everything you said with the exception of this bit. I'm not bias one way or another. I'm just an "idea guy". If I see a good idea, I don't care who said it, the US / UK or otherwise. But it seems people are completely dismissing ideas (good or bad) based almost solely on their politics. It baffles me.

 

[TexRex]

However, my advice to all government is to see what UK and USA do and then do literally anything else.

"hurr durr but Trump closed China and DEMOCRATS called him a raisin xylophone"

 

[Dotini]

I can agree or at least understand everything you said with the exception of this bit. I'm not bias one way or another. I'm just an "idea guy". If I see a good idea, I don't care who said it, the US / UK or otherwise. But it seems people are completely dismissing ideas (good or bad) based almost solely on their politics. It baffles me.

Americans generally do the right thing - but only after they've tried everything else first.

But seriously, I think a diversity of efforts from different communities, states and nations will fairly swiftly reveal what are the better strategies for coping with the pandemic.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

While Minnesota and Michigan need to be liberated, or whatever, Trump feels it's too soon to open Georgia?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/tru...es-in-the-middle-of-coronavirus-pandemic.html

The transparency of the absurdity is the hilarity.

 

[Danoff]

Americans generally do the right thing - but only after they've tried everything else first.

But seriously, I think a diversity of efforts from different communities, states and nations will fairly swiftly reveal what are the better strategies for coping with the pandemic.

Edit:

While I'm at it!

While Minnesota and Michigan need to be liberated, or whatever, Trump feels it's too soon to open Georgia?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/tru...es-in-the-middle-of-coronavirus-pandemic.html

The transparency of the absurdity is the hilarity.

 

[Northstar]

While Minnesota and Michigan need to be liberated, or whatever, Trump feels it's too soon to open Georgia?

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/tru...es-in-the-middle-of-coronavirus-pandemic.html

The transparency of the absurdity is the hilarity.

Walz (Minnesota’s Governor) had a phone conversation with Trump after the tweet about “liberating” us, maybe he managed to do the impossible and talk some sense into him.

 

[Daz555]

I can agree or at least understand everything you said with the exception of this bit. I'm not bias one way or another. I'm just an "idea guy". If I see a good idea, I don't care who said it, the US / UK or otherwise. But it seems people are completely dismissing ideas (good or bad) based almost solely on their politics. It baffles me.

I agree people should not dismiss (or approve) of ideas based purely on politics (or rather political allegiance). That is a road to nowhere.

 

[Milouse]

There are suggestions that covid-19 has a fairly low immune memory effect and if true then herd immunity may never be achieved through infection.

Nor by vaccine ,i guess.

 

[Daz555]

Nor by vaccine ,i guess.

Vaccines can have very different immune memory effects to natural immunity. Much of current vaccine work for covid-19 uses the adenovirus (a weak common cold virus) which has a strong immune memory effect. This vaccine (ChAdOx1 nCoV-19) is beginning early human trials in my home city in the next few weeks and also in some other parts of the UK.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Gilead is testing Remdesivir, an anti-viral drug, in clinical trials in a few hospitals. The results sound promising so far.

Mullane, while encouraged by the University of Chicago data, made clear her own hesitancy about drawing too many conclusions.

“It’s always hard,” she said, because the severe trial doesn’t include a placebo group for comparison. “But certainly when we start [the] drug, we see fever curves falling,” she said. “Fever is now not a requirement for people to go on trial, we do see when patients do come in with high fevers, they do [reduce] quite quickly. We have seen people come off ventilators a day after starting therapy. So, in that realm, overall our patients have done very well.”

She added: “Most of our patients are severe and most of them are leaving at six days, so that tells us duration of therapy doesn’t have to be 10 days. We have very few that went out to 10 days, maybe three,” she said.

Reached by STAT, Mullane confirmed the authenticity of the footage but declined to comment further. In a statement, the University of Chicago Medicine said “drawing any conclusions at this point is premature and scientifically unsound.”

Asked about the data, Eric Topol, director of the Scripps Research Translational Institute, described them as “encouraging.”

https://www.statnews.com/2020/04/16...uggests-patients-are-responding-to-treatment/

https://komonews.com/news/local/exp...ug-remdesivir-used-to-treat-covid-19-patients

 

[FoRiZon]

I made a mistake by watching the entire (drive thru) Covid Test process before sleep.

Its not pleasant, to say the least. It's scary because it's what lots of people will experience one day.

 

[Barra333]

An article in the Guardian today suggests that ethnic minorities are more prone to developing COVID-19 in the UK than white Caucasians

It was a week ago now, but heard Fauci taking about racial differences in effect of the virus (specifically black Americans) . He basically said it was likely due to the difference in baseline healthcare availability and comorbidities that certain populations are predisposed to or suffer more from leading to worse COVID outcomes rather than a specific reaction to the virus. This may be incorrect, or superseded by newer info, but it made sense to me.