COVID-19/Coronavirus Information and Support Thread (see OP for useful links)

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Sander 001
Is America too libertarian to deal with the coronavirus?

"any plan we adopt, no matter how wise, is useless without “widespread political consent” from American citizens. And the obsession with individual liberties in America, coupled with a general distrust of government, poses an enormous challenge,
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So I just don’t think we can do what Germany does, where there’s higher confidence in the state and higher trust in the state.
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My problem with libertarianism has always been that it gives us a language of rights but it can’t give us a language of obligations — it’s fundamentally an individualistic philosophy.
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if Trump put on a mask at a press conference and said, “I’m doing this because it’s a smart thing to do,” that would matter to some people who are resistant, that signal from someone they trust would matter.
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We have lots of strengths in America that can be of incredible value in normal times, but in a pandemic, those same strengths can become a liability. That’s all I’m really saying."
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America isn't very libertarian, we used to be, but not since the early 1900s and the New Deal.

And it should be up to the individual. Stores and restaurants should be allowed to stay open if they want, or they should be able to close if they want. People should determine what risk level they're willing to accept and either stay locked in their homes or venture out in the world. When it comes to masks, places should make their own policy and be free to enforce it. If Costco won't allow anyone in without a mask, then it should stick to that policy. If Sams Club wants to ban masks, it should be able to. People will figure out real quick where they feel safe and where they don't.

The reason we've had such a problem in the US is mainly due to ineffective leadership. If Trump would just shut the hell up and let the experts talk, then we'd have a better grasp of what the virus entails. But since he uses every opportunity to say whatever is on his mind we have the gambit of people thinking that you should inject yourself with bleach or eat fish tank cleaning solution. We the message is unclear, or changes daily, it's little wonder people can't make heads or tails of it. Throw-in social media and you have the perfect storm for idiotic ideas to spread.

It's also hard for the government to hold people's hands when the government itself is god awful.
 
Well, apparently Trump is religious so he wants the faith people to open,

I can't get over the thought that he had a lot of religious Christianity peeps calling him to let them have their business to keep running at that time

It doesn't make any sense other than that
 
Looks like my favorite intoxicant may do more than help keep away glaucoma, it may also be helping me resist the errr... the Rona (I like that one best). As these things tend to be at the moment, peer review and more studies of course need to be done. This study however is showing that certain sativa strains high in CBD lower the product of an expressed enzyme called ACE2. Covid-19 uses ACE2 to replicate and the glands and what not found throughout the mouth throat, gut and intestines that express it to gain entry into the body. They aren't touting it as a cure, but more of a companion treatment to help reduce the amount and speed at which the virus can spread.
 
Well the convenience stores certainly know that more people are out and about. Gas has gone up 30 cents in the last week.
 
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Submerged
Well, apparently Trump is religious so he wants the faith people to open,

I can't get over the thought that he had a lot of religious Christianity peeps calling him to let them have their business to keep running at that time

It doesn't make any sense other than that
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People want to get closer to their God.... Physically, spiritually... Let them be...

Once they realize a second wave is coming due to their faith... They will learn their lessons.... Sadly more deaths.


Also he is only doing that because somehow the religious freaks (I am also religious, but not a freak) are the core voters for this faithless man...

Nothing makes sense.
 
For me, its poor taste to say that they would learn their lessons but you understand it even though you are religious.

Wouldn't being religious and also empathatic to those who are religious and chosen the wrong path or the non-religious and going towards the "death path" mean you have to help both those people to still survive?

(if it wasn't clear, most religion have you to protect or guide the wrong towards somewhere towards survival or somewhere more moral living)
 
Submerged
For me, its poor taste to say that they would learn their lessons but you understand it even though you are religious.

Wouldn't being religious and also empathatic to those who are religious and chosen the wrong path or the non-religious and going towards the "death path" mean you have to help both those people to still survive?

(if it wasn't clear, most religion have you to protect or guide the wrong towards somewhere towards survival or somewhere more moral living)
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You are correct.

I don't consider myself as religious as these people who certainly would consider themselves more religious than I am.

Based on that, and I think their decision isnt wise, but how else can I convinced them when they have already convinced themselves that the right path is to reopen the house of worship...

How do you suggest I help them and guide them?

Edit:
I pray for their safety and health, and they pray to return to church... I think we are covered here. God surely will listen to one of us right?
 
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Rallywagon
Looks like my favorite intoxicant may do more than help keep away glaucoma, it may also be helping me resist the errr... the Rona (I like that one best). As these things tend to be at the moment, peer review and more studies of course need to be done. This study however is showing that certain sativa strains high in CBD lower the product of an expressed enzyme called ACE2. Covid-19 uses ACE2 to replicate and the glands and what not found throughout the mouth throat, gut and intestines that express it to gain entry into the body. They aren't touting it as a cure, but more of a companion treatment to help reduce the amount and speed at which the virus can spread.
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Well, alright, I'll keep it up if I have to...
 
Sander 001
Right.

A security guard was shot in the head after telling a customer to wear a face mask. His widow calls the killing 'senseless and stupid'
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As I said when this was posted before, it's Flint. Flint is one of the most dangerous cities in America and has one of the highest murder rates per capita. Hell, even the water will kill you.

But let's think of it another way. Say there was a law requiring everyone to wear a mask in public, punishable by a $500 fine for your first offense. You still need someone to enforce that law and it would start with the stores barring people from entering who weren't wearing masks. Yes, they could call the police, but the employee and/or security guard telling the person to don a mask could still very well end up shot.
 
HenrySwanson
Probably the most influential unelected figure in British politics is under fire for allegedly breaking lockdown rules
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Reading it confused me a bit because how the article was written, jumping all over the place, but it sounds like the guy travelled to keep part of his family safe and to get away from an infected member, unless error on my part, so I don't see the issue if that is the real case of self isolation and relocation...

It's not like he purposely went out to spread the thing... He didn't... Another UK tabloid...
 
UKMikey
Why?
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That was what was being posited - a rights-based system of freedoms (which is widely misinterpreted) against an authoritarian system of laws.

However, you're partly right - we don't need to think of that incident in terms of libertarianism in the first place. It wasn't a right-based system of personal freedoms that caused the murderers to kill the security guard. The store wasn't exercising any freedoms at all - the state government had enacted a law that said people must wear masks to go into any retail store, and the security guard was reminding the people who weren't doing that that it was the law. They killed him.

This wasn't a clash of rights - which is so often used to attack libertarian principles - but people ignoring one law because of how they understand another law.

I don't really see how this story - "security guard telling people to follow the law for the protection of the people they are guarding is killed by people who don't want to follow the law and think deadly force is an appropriate reaction to being reminded of the law" - is particularly relevant to the position the original user posted, that the USA is too libertarian for the measures to combat COVID-19.
 
UKMikey
Why?
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Making a law that requires masks isn't going to change how people behave. The onus is still on the store, restaurant, whatever to initially enforce it. Yes, they can call the police, but that's not going to prevent someone from doing something violent if they want to do something violent.

The only way you'd reduce a violent response is to put armed guards at ever public place to counter force with force. In my opinion that wouldn't end well for anyone.
 
CTznOfTime
Reading it confused me a bit because how the article was written, jumping all over the place, but it sounds like the guy travelled to keep part of his family safe and to get away from an infected member, unless error on my part, so I don't see the issue if that is the real case of self isolation and relocation...

It's not like he purposely went out to spread the thing... He didn't... Another UK tabloid...
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The rules were clear, if someone in the house is showing symptoms (wife) they must stay at home for 7 days. Anyone else in the house must stay there for 14 days. He wrote the damn rules.

The government are now saying that there were exceptions to the rules because one of their own broke them. That's literally what happened in Animal Farm.
 
I'm not sure how a one-word, three-letter request for clarification can be "partly right".

Joey D
Making a law that requires masks isn't going to change how people behave. The onus is still on the store, restaurant, whatever to initially enforce it. Yes, they can call the police, but that's not going to prevent someone from doing something violent if they want to do something violent.

The only way you'd reduce a violent response is to put armed guards at ever public place to counter force with force. In my opinion that wouldn't end well for anyone.
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I'm not sure a violent response is inevitable and would require an escalation of force at every instance. Other countries (and presumably other cities which aren't Flint) have introduced no-mask-no-entry guidelines which haven't resulted in violent responses or the introduction of armed guards.
 
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UKMikey
I'm not sure a violent response is inevitable. Other countries (and presumably other cities which aren't Flint) have introduced no-mask-no-entry guidelines which haven't resulted in violent responses.
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Yes, of course. But the line of the conversation went that Americans need laws to full fill obligations to society. I said the onus belonged to the specific place to enforce a policy. That's when we got the example of Flint. I further clarified why it's on the store. This is the bit I presume you were asking why about.
 
Joey D
Yes, of course. But the line of the conversation went that Americans need laws to full fill obligations to society. I said the onus belonged to the specific place to enforce a policy. That's when we got the example of Flint. I further clarified why it's on the store. This is the bit I presume you were asking why about.
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That's not really what my post said. You said it's Flint and I agree. When you said there's another way to look at it it sounded like the shooter was somehow in the right or at least within his rights. That's what puzzled me.

Your other concerns should probably be addressed towards the other poster.
 
UKMikey
That's not really what my post said. You said it's Flint and I agree. When you said there's another way to look at it it sounded like the shooter was somehow in the right or at least within his rights. That's what puzzled me.

Your other concerns should probably be addressed towards the other poster.
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Ah, my bad, I didn't really word that reply the best.
 
Joey D
As I said when this was posted before, it's Flint. Flint is one of the most dangerous cities in America and has one of the highest murder rates per capita. Hell, even the water will kill you.

But let's think of it another way. Say there was a law requiring everyone to wear a mask in public, punishable by a $500 fine for your first offense. You still need someone to enforce that law and it would start with the stores barring people from entering who weren't wearing masks. Yes, they could call the police, but the employee and/or security guard telling the person to don a mask could still very well end up shot.
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Yes it happened in Flint but the chilling effect it will have all over the country can't be ignored.
 
Sander 001
Yes it happened in Flint but the chilling effect it will have all over the country can't be ignored.
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Sure, you can't ignore it, but it still doesn't negate that the onus should fall to the place of business. If masks were store policy instead of law, the businesses could determine if a mask policy masks sense for them or not. Most would probably impliment a mask policy, but some wouldn't. Those places that don't would cater to those who refuse to wear a mask.

This would probably cut down on violent interactions since people who are anti-mask would have a place to go. It wouldn't completely eliminate it though since some people are always going to be asshats.
 
Joey D
Sure, you can't ignore it, but it still doesn't negate that the onus should fall to the place of business. If masks were store policy instead of law, the businesses could determine if a mask policy masks sense for them or not. Most would probably impliment a mask policy, but some wouldn't. Those places that don't would cater to those who refuse to wear a mask.

This would probably cut down on violent interactions since people who are anti-mask would have a place to go. It wouldn't completely eliminate it though since some people are always going to be asshats.
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Wouldn't the onus be on the state since it created the policy the store was forced to follow? What choice did the store have?
 
Rallywagon
Wouldn't the onus be on the state since it created the policy the store was forced to follow? What choice did the store have?
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In the particular case in Flint, yes, it's on the state for enacting the order. But, my original point was no state should have a mask required law since it's next to impossible to enforce. Even in states that do have the law, it's still going to fall to the businesses to initially enforce it because cops can't just sit outside every business.
 
Joey D
The only way you'd reduce a violent response is to put armed guards at ever public place to counter force with force. In my opinion that wouldn't end well for anyone.
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What sort of country needs armed guards outside all shops to enforce the wearing of masks?

We have compulsory use of masks inside shops here in Spain. The tiny percentage of people who enter without one are politely reminded by the (unarmed) shop staff that they need one. They either have one, and put it on, or they leave quietly. They don’t pull out a gun and shoot the staff member in the head.

WTF has America become?

oh, and...
EYyiuIdXkAU8Vcq


Does your God also have you covered for cancer, or getting run over by a bus? ****wits.
 

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